Very rural Ireland

ArtSmart · 08-05-2011 12:09pm

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Errr....wut? I know that remote areas of South Connemara can be bad, but in comparison to North Connemara, they've been running rings around us. From Galway city out as far as Carraroe you have IT service companies, RnaG and associated media companies, Rosaveel fishing harbour and tourist gateway to Aran. Not to mention that Enterprise receives a much needed support from the likes of Udras and there's probably more support for entrepreneurship there then most other places in the country on account of the Gaeltacht.

And in fact, I think this is as good an example as we will have for maintaining social and economic life in rural Ireland. I've seen with my own eye's professionals who move as far as NZ for lifestyle choices, and I know many in my own Industry who would move back to rural Ireland in a heartbeat if they could work there.

I've also seen the decline of the rural area, and acknowledge that unless some of the issues previously mentioned in this thread are reversed it will continue. But I also believe that we live in an age where decentralization, information technology, and improved infrastructure can give us the means to address this.

Unfortunately I don't see this happening in Ireland any time too soon. Another thing I feel that is strangling rural Ireland are the cynical practices of established families in small towns, I've seen this with my own eyes and it disgusts me! Reason I suppose I don't live there anymore along with many others.

spot on.
I think there will be an increase in community/ rural development thanks in no small part to our third level institutions emphasis on same (encouraged by the EU's Leader and other progs)

as for the actions of the rural mafia - also evident in the business 'community' of larger towns, that'll take time.

Pete_Cavan · 08-05-2011 12:37pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There are already plans on the table to move to a higher proportion of electric vehicles by 2020. The price of petrol is going to become less and less a factor as we move along.

As you pointed out, electricity is its own can of worms. I dont think electric vehicles will be the solution in this country where our energy policy involves subsidising inefficient producers (windfarms) and I would not be surprised to the cost of powering an electric vehicle reaching a similar cost per kilometer as we now see with petrol in the not too distant future. The price of petrol is going to become less and less a factor but the price of electricity will be more and more of a factor, and this effects every home and business in the country. I would not be surprised if we are phasing out EVs soon enough.

murphaph · 08-05-2011 1:14pm

Reekwind wrote: »

Historically factories do not go to people; people go to factories.

This was the case at the very beginnings of the industrial revolution...raw materials exist in location so factory built and people move from rural life to factory to work in't mill or whatever.

We have however moved well beyond industry "building" cities (at least in Western Europe) in this way. Cities now exist in their own right and industry does indeed nowadays find its way to the people in these existing cities. Industry wants to have as large a pool of available labour as possible. Industry usually has to be coerced into locating in an otherwise non-sensical location (often with overly generous tax breaks etc.).

Let's face it...rural Ireland is and should be no different to rural Germany or rural France or Spain etc. Do people think rural locations in these countries are teaming with jobs and industry? Think again...Germans from Brandenburg up sticks when they're 18 and go to study and find work in Berlin. Bavarians go to Munich etc. (there is obviously wider spread but these are typical). Bavaria is a wealthy state but rural Bavaria is still not a place you will find work. They have large farms and strong provincial towns. One off housing is rare-people live in settlements.

If people chosse to stay in a rural location in Germany they would not expect jobs to be brought to them. The Irish didn't either until recently and I don't really know where that came from tbh. We should focus our energy of building up our cities to be decent places to live and protect the countryside from further destruction. There are enough one off house built at this stage.

murphaph · 08-05-2011 1:34pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Anyone considered the possibilities offered by telecommuting? Most office jobs don't require you to actually be in the office any more, and the number that do are decreasing daily. You could be living halfway up a hill in Connemara and doing your accounting or secretary work perfectly. It's an inescapable and welcome trend. This is why the single most important infrastructure to build up is the information infrastructure.

There's only so far this can go. I work as a web developer and it is just easier to work in an office where you can ask the guy face to face what bit of his code does x, y or z. He can come over to your desk and point at things. I work on a project at the minute that will be deployed in Brazil. The Brazilian team are hard to communicate with over skype no matter what people say. It is less efficient than everyone working in the same office. We had the Brazilians over for a month to see the new setup that will replace their existing one and we got loads done. As soon as they went back it was like the brakes being put on. Telecommutiung has a place but most people who do it generally manage only a few days a week as meetings etc. still go better when they are face to face.

Lots of industries of course preclude telecommuting by their very nature.

bath handle · 08-05-2011 2:43pm

Children can't telecommute to school or to play with friends or play sports. Shops have to be physically visited as do doctors and hospitals. Telecommute does not overcome the problems caused by dispersed settlement. It might reduce the travelling done by one member of a household. All the other downsides to scattered settlement remain.

gigino · 08-05-2011 3:14pm

8 or so main centres around the country would be best. Critical mass etc.

Those small town / villages with ghost estates should never have been built.

Brussels Sprout · 08-05-2011 5:08pm

gigino wrote: »

8 or so main centres around the country would be best. Critical mass etc.

Those small town / villages with ghost estates should never have been built.

The national spatial strategy was a joke. They basically went and made every big town and city in the country seem important. A sure way to keep all of the TDs happy so that they could go back to their constituents. TWENTY TWO gateways and hubs!

Harps · 08-05-2011 8:14pm

Every town in the west with more than a few thousand people is on that list, as you say its just down to local politics and keeping everyone happy. The likes of Ballina, Monaghan and Tuam as nationwide hubs!

Not that that plan actually meant anything anyway, I cant say I've ever noticed anything attributed to being a gateway town around here

bath handle · 08-05-2011 8:40pm

They are reasonable towns in my view. There should be severe restrictions on building one off housing in their hinterlands. There will be no GPs in rural areas soon and priests are also becoming scarce. Larger farms and smaller farm families will make the remaining businesses in rural areas less viable.

gigino · 08-05-2011 8:55pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

The national spatial strategy was a joke. They basically went and made every big town and city in the country seem important. A sure way to keep all of the TDs happy so that they could go back to their constituents. TWENTY TWO gateways and hubs!

not only that but they made the mistake of developing smaller, previously picturesque villages too.

many have ghost estates now

bulldoze em

srsly78 · 08-05-2011 11:44pm

My registered office is in rural Ireland, but the internet is too **** to work from there

0.2Mb dsl... GJ Eircom. People 200m away have 12Mb :rolleyes: So anyway I work from Dublin instead. Have been trying to get it sorted for years.

Batsy · 09-05-2011 12:45pm

Kevin joyce wrote: »

Do very rural parts of ireland have a future? From 2001-2006 when everybody could get a job places like south connemara had no real jobs.

Apart from Dublin, the whole of the Republic of Ireland is comparatively rural.

What amazes me is that the Republic's second largest "city", Cork, is slightly smaller than Bolton (where I live), near Manchester, which is only the 32nd largest place in the UK, behind the likes of Wirral, Wakefield, Coventry, Sunderland, Doncaster, Wigan, Sefton, Stockport, Leicester, Sunderland and even Sandwell.

Bolton!!

If you count the metroplitan areas of those places, Cork is only slightly larger than Bolton.

The town of Bolton has a population of 139,403, whilst the wider metropolitan borough has a population of 262,400. Cork has a population of 119,418. Metropolitan Cork has a population of approximately 274,000

All of those places, including my home town, are bigger than the Republic of Ireland's second largest city.

And then take a look at my county of Greater Manchester (which, for centuries, was part of Lancashire until, like Merseyside and parts of southern Cumbria, it "gained its independence" from Lancashire in 1974).

Greater Manchester, an urban, metropolitan county which comprises ten metropolitan boroughs - Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford and Wigan - measures just 493 sq mi (1,276 sq km in funny measures) in area. This makes Greater Manchester not much larger than County Carlow, which is the Republic of Ireland's second smallest county, with an area of 346 sq mi (896 sq km in funny measures).

But whereas County Carlow has a population of around 50,500, Greater Manchester has a population of 2.6 million. So, to get an idea of how crowded Greater Manchester is, imagine that 2.6 million of the Republic of Ireland's 4.5 million people were crowded together in County Carlow.

I don't think you realise sometimes just how small your nation is.

K-9 · 09-05-2011 1:43pm

Batsy wrote: »

Apart from Dublin, the whole of the Republic of Ireland is comparatively rural.

What amazes me is that the Republic's second largest "city", Cork, is slightly smaller than Bolton (where I live), near Manchester, which is only the 32nd largest place in the UK, behind the likes of Wirral, Wakefield, Coventry, Sunderland, Doncaster, Wigan, Sefton, Stockport, Leicester, Sunderland and even Sandwell.

[img][/img]http://www.my-hospitality.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/bolton-town-hall.jpg
Bolton!!

If you count the metroplitan areas of those places, Cork is only slightly larger than Bolton.

The town of Bolton has a population of 139,403, whilst the wider metropolitan borough has a population of 262,400. Cork has a population of 119,418. Metropolitan Cork has a population of approximately 274,000

All of those places, including my home town, are bigger than the Republic of Ireland's second largest city.

I don't think you realise sometimes just how small your nation is.

The difference there is Cork is the second city here and naturally is more important and well known than what is a relatively small city in NW England, nearly a suburb of Manchester. Cork is recognised as the centre of our pharmaceutical industry which is the main reason for strong export performance.

Batsy · 09-05-2011 1:58pm

K-9 wrote: »

The difference there is Cork is the second city here and naturally is more important and well known than what is a relatively small city in NW England, nearly a suburb of Manchester. Cork is recognised as the centre of our pharmaceutical industry which is the main reason for strong export performance.

I'm not trying to deny that. I'm just giving a comparison of how small towns and cities are in the Republic compared to the UK, in that Cork would only be around the 31st or 32nd largest place if it was in the UK rather than the Republic.

Compared to the UK, the Republic is a much more rural place.

Cú Giobach · 09-05-2011 2:09pm

Batsy wrote: »

Apart from Dublin, the whole of the Republic of Ireland is comparatively rural.

What amazes me is that the Republic's second largest "city", Cork, is slightly smaller than Bolton (where I live), near Manchester, which is only the 32nd largest place in the UK, behind the likes of Wirral, Wakefield, Coventry, Sunderland, Doncaster, Wigan, Sefton, Stockport, Leicester, Sunderland and even Sandwell.

Bolton!!

If you count the metroplitan areas of those places, Cork is only slightly larger than Bolton.

The town of Bolton has a population of 139,403, whilst the wider metropolitan borough has a population of 262,400. Cork has a population of 119,418. Metropolitan Cork has a population of approximately 274,000

All of those places, including my home town, are bigger than the Republic of Ireland's second largest city.

And then take a look at my county of Greater Manchester (which, for centuries, was part of Lancashire until, like Merseyside and parts of southern Cumbria, it "gained its independence" from Lancashire in 1974).

Greater Manchester, an urban, metropolitan county which comprises ten metropolitan boroughs - Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford and Wigan - measures just 493 sq mi (1,276 sq km in funny measures) in area. This makes Greater Manchester not much larger than County Carlow, which is the Republic of Ireland's second smallest county, with an area of 346 sq mi (896 sq km in funny measures).

But whereas County Carlow has a population of around 50,500, Greater Manchester has a population of 2.6 million. So, to get an idea of how crowded Greater Manchester is, imagine that 2.6 million of the Republic of Ireland's 4.5 million people were crowded together in County Carlow.

I don't think you realise sometimes just how small your nation is.

I think you will find we are quite aware (and thankful) of the size of our country, and don't need to have it pointed out to us like naive little children.

Bulldoze all the holiday homes and ghost estates and leave those of us who actually live in the countryside and would go mad living in a city, town or village alone.

Brussels Sprout · 09-05-2011 2:13pm

Batsy wrote: »

I'm not trying to deny that. I'm just giving a comparison of how small towns and cities are in the Republic compared to the UK, in that Cork would only be around the 31st or 32nd largest place if it was in the UK rather than the Republic.

Compared to the UK, the Republic is a much more rural place.

If you travel by rail from Cork to Dublin all you see is fields for the most part whereas If you travel by rail from London to Birmingham or Newcastle it just seems to be town after town after town.

I agree that before we try and develop everywhere all at once we should start by trying to develop our other cities outside of Dublin.

Cú Giobach · 09-05-2011 2:18pm

Batsy wrote: »

What amazes me is that the Republic's second largest "city", Cork, is slightly smaller than Bolton (where I live),.

Just out of curiosity, why does the fact that another country is different to yours "amaze you"?

CerebralCortex · 09-05-2011 2:59pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, why does the fact that another country is different to yours "amaze you"?

It makes it clear how small our population actually is.

Brussels Sprout · 09-05-2011 3:03pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, why does the fact that another country is different to yours "amaze you"?

Well I'm from Cork and I think it's amazing that it's the 2nd biggest city in a country. I also think that the fact that the Elysian is the tallest building (17 floors) in the country is amazing as well.

I spent a lot of time living in New Zealand which has a lot of parallels with here. Same size populations, both in the OECD, both with strong agricultural histories and both dominated by one city.

However as can be seen in the tables below there is a massive difference in the drop off after the first city. The top 4 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's second city and the top 7 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's third city Limerick.

1 Dublin[a] & Suburbs 1,045,769
2 Cork[a] & Suburbs 190,384
3 Limerick[a] & Suburbs 90,757
4 Galway[a] & Suburbs 72,729
5 Waterford & Suburbs 49,213
6 Drogheda & Environs 35,090
7 Dundalk[a] & Suburbs 35,085
8 Swords[a] 33,998
9 Bray & Environs 31,901
10 Navan[a] & Environs 24,851

1 Auckland 1,354,900
2 Christchurch 390,300
3 Wellington 389,700
4 Hamilton Urban Area 203,400
5 Napier-Hastings Urban Area 124,400
6 Tauranga 120,000
7 Dunedin 116,600
8 Palmerston North 81,600
9 Nelson 59,800
10 Rotorua 55,900

So if the populations are the same but the urban population profiles are so markedly different then this points to a massive amount of people in Ireland living in either very small communities or one off houses in the middle of rural areas.

CerebralCortex · 09-05-2011 3:34pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Well I'm from Cork and I think it's amazing that it's the 2nd biggest city in a country. I also think that the fact that the Elysian is the tallest building (17 floors) in the country is amazing as well.

I spent a lot of time living in New Zealand which has a lot of parallels with here. Same size populations, both in the OECD, both with strong agricultural histories and both dominated by one city.

However as can be seen in the tables below there is a massive difference in the drop off after the first city. The top 4 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's second city and the top 7 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's third city Limerick.

So if the populations are the same but the urban population profiles are so markedly different then this points to a massive amount of people in Ireland living in either very small communities or one off houses in the middle of rural areas.

What's remarkable about NZ to due to this fact is swathes of unspoilt landscape. I am aware however that it's land mass is 3.5 times that of Ireland.

Cú Giobach · 09-05-2011 4:00pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Well I'm from Cork and I think it's amazing that it's the 2nd biggest city in a country.

Why are you amazed?
Do you know anything about the history of Ireland and its population?

So if the populations are the same but the urban population profiles are so markedly different then this points to a massive amount of people in Ireland living in either very small communities or one off houses in the middle of rural areas.

Ireland has always been a very rural country, it's only recently since the urban population outnumbered the rural one.

If it wasn't for the famine and mass emigration we would have a population density comparable to England today, and all those lovely spots some of us call home and others would like to see cleansed of people so they can enjoy their sunday drives without the inconvenience of the local inhabitants, would be packed with one off homes, farmsteads, villages and large towns.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

What's remarkable about NZ to due to this fact is swathes of unspoilt landscape. I am aware however that it's land mass is 3.5 times that of Ireland.

And has a very large amount of uninhabitable or very hard to access land.

Brussels Sprout · 09-05-2011 5:20pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why are you amazed?

Now it might seem strange to think of it as amazing when you've grown up here and always accepted the fact that it's the second biggest city but in comparison to other countries it is amazing.
It's a small city. The centre is essentially 6 streets and some quays.
There are less than 20 bus routes. There's no major permanent event arena and we only have 1 football team. (to name just a few things).

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Do you know anything about the history of Ireland and its population?

I do

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Ireland has always been a very rural country, it's only recently since the urban population outnumbered the rural one.

Agreed

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If it wasn't for the famine and mass emigration we would have a population density comparable to England today, and all those lovely spots some of us call home and others would like to see cleansed of people so they can enjoy their sunday drives without the inconvenience of the local inhabitants, would be packed with one off homes, farmsteads, villages and large towns.

The only way that we would have a population density equal to Britain is if we had gone through an industrial revolution in the same way that they did in the 19th century. If this had been the case then the urban/rural gap would have been breached long before recently. This is in fact the most likely reason why our other urban areas are so relatively small.

Had the agrarian model of Irish society been able to sustain a larger sized population then we wouldn't have had such mass emigration in the 20th century.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

And has a very large amount of uninhabitable or very hard to access land.

And a very large amount of land that is reserved for agricultural use, national parks and forestry and is not pock marked by gaudy mansions.

irishh_bob · 09-05-2011 7:25pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Well I'm from Cork and I think it's amazing that it's the 2nd biggest city in a country. I also think that the fact that the Elysian is the tallest building (17 floors) in the country is amazing as well.

I spent a lot of time living in New Zealand which has a lot of parallels with here. Same size populations, both in the OECD, both with strong agricultural histories and both dominated by one city.

However as can be seen in the tables below there is a massive difference in the drop off after the first city. The top 4 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's second city and the top 7 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's third city Limerick.

So if the populations are the same but the urban population profiles are so markedly different then this points to a massive amount of people in Ireland living in either very small communities or one off houses in the middle of rural areas.

i lived in new zealand in the late nineties for a while and i too noticed this , ireland is full of small parishes and towns which are less than half a dozen miles from each other where as in new zealand while you have many citys which are as large as cork , you often have distances of 60 miles between towns which are the same size as mullingar or maynooth and litterally nothing in between , i guess it comes down to new zealand being three times the size of ireland but with a similar population

Clareboy · 09-05-2011 8:33pm

Anytime that I travel in the UK, I am always amazed at the glorious unspoilt countryside and beautifully conserved towns and villages that exist in a country with a population of over 60 million. Here in Ireland, as a result of disasterous planning policies, we have completely lost that sense of countryside. It was an awful pity that we did not adopt planning policies similar to those in the UK and have proper national parks and designated areas of outstanding natural beauty.

Harps · 09-05-2011 10:44pm

Agreed, for a country with such a large population they've got a much nicer and better maintained countryside than we do, small towns are actually nice to visit in comparison to the depressing run down towns filled with bookies and pubs that are common place in this country. The countryside in this country is basically one big linear suburb along major roads

A heads up that this very topic is being discussed on Frontline right now

markpb · 09-05-2011 11:10pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Why are you amazed? Do you know anything about the history of Ireland and its population? Ireland has always been a very rural country, it's only recently since the urban population outnumbered the rural one.

I think you're missing a fundamental point. Not so long ago, most people living in rural parts of Ireland did so because they lived on their farmland. They weren't commuting to the nearest city for school or work - they lived and worked on the farm.

mikemac · 10-05-2011 12:20am

Zero consistency between councils.

Co. Clare were ridiculously lax, the whole waterfront along Lough Derg north of Killaloe is bungalows and McMansions. You can see them from across the lake, a lot painted brilliant white

Tipperary North right across the lake went the other extreme, ridiculously strict. A farmer's son might be getting married and hope to take over the farm some day, demonstrate "local need" and get rejected straight away for building on their farmland
They wanted development in towns where services can be provided so the village of Ballina got housing estates while Killaloe in Clare right across the lake went with ribbon development with one off houses

When I worked in Yorkshire, a gang of us would drive around to matches, like across the Pennines to Manchester. I used to amazed in this country with over 50 million people you have such preserved wilderness.

Cú Giobach · 10-05-2011 9:49am

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Now it might seem strange to think of it as amazing when you've grown up here and always accepted the fact that it's the second biggest city but in comparison to other countries it is amazing.
It's a small city. The centre is essentially 6 streets and some quays.
There are less than 20 bus routes. There's no major permanent event arena and we only have 1 football team. (to name just a few things).

Actually it is only amazing if you haven't travelled and seen other countries with very rural populations, or are only beginning to learn about the rest of the world.
Being amazed that a country with a population of 4.2 million has smaller cities than a country of 60 million is naive in the extreme.
I'm going to use figures below for the populations of "Cities proper" and not greater metropolitan areas because the proportions and comparisons though differing a bit don't detract from my point.

The pop of London is 7,000,000 and the second largest city is Birmingham pop 1,000,000,
Birmingham is 7 times smaller than London.
The pop of Dublin is 500,000 and the pop of Cork is 120,000.
Cork is 4 times smaller than Dublin.

The population of Japan's largest city is 4/5 times the population of Britain's largest is this amazing?

The only way that we would have a population density equal to Britain is if we had gone through an industrial revolution in the same way that they did in the 19th century. If this had been the case then the urban/rural gap would have been breached long before recently. This is in fact the most likely reason why our other urban areas are so relatively small.

Population density has nothing to do with the urban/rural distribution of people, if we don't have the numbers it doesn't matter how you distribute them the density will not change.
In 1841 the population of Ireland was 8 million (containing almost 1/3 the pop of the UK), a density of 114 per sq/km,
The pop of Britain was 18.5 mill a density of 76 per sq/km
Today the density here is 60 per sq/km and in Britain 246 per sq/km

markpb wrote: »

I think you're missing a fundamental point. Not so long ago, most people living in rural parts of Ireland did so because they lived on their farmland. They weren't commuting to the nearest city for school or work - they lived and worked on the farm.

And the children and children's children of these people grew up in the country and many wish to remain in the country and not live in an urban sprawl.

50 years ago my neighbours family all lived in one house, 3 generations living together, today members of this family each have their own houses, a total of 4 houses for roughly the same number of people who previously had 1.
Should these people be forced to live in the nearest concrete settlement, or all stuffed into one house, just so tourists can look at green fields (which are actually pretty devoid of wild natural diversity and I personally consider them deserts) instead.

markpb · 10-05-2011 10:31am

Cú Giobach wrote: »

And the children and children's children of these people grew up in the country and many wish to remain in the country and not live in an urban sprawl.

If those children are taking over the farm or working in the area, that's perfectly fine. If they're driving 60k round trips to get to work, can't socialise without drinking and driving, complaining about the speed of their internet connection or campaigning because the local small hospital, that's a different matter.

HivemindXX · 10-05-2011 10:55am

The problem is that for every person posting here that ribbon development is bad there's at least one person somewhere complaining that the planning board has no right to restrict where they put their house.

To the poster from Bolton....nobody in Dublin has a problem recognising that Cork is nothing more than a small city.

(that's a joke Cork people, please don't lynch me, I love Cork honestly!)

Whatever about Ireland being a rural country, even though Cork (and Galway and Belfast) are relatively small cities, you can't claim that people who live in them are anything other than urban dwellers.

Very rural Ireland

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