Irish Language, Keep it or Ditch it?

ballsymchugh · 07-05-2011 05:33PM

ElaElaElano wrote: »

Cén fáth? Ba mhaith liom caint faoi an gnéas atá ar Ros na Rún gach uile lá, agus an fadhb atá agam leis ag immeacht on teilifís. Béidhim ag bhualadh mo cracieann go dtí 'loose women' nó rud éigin ansin.

gaeilge ceolmhar atá agat!!

Show Time · 07-05-2011 05:34PM

stone roses wrote: »

who are we to ditch our own language?? 1500 yrs or more we have spoken irish and just becaues its not used in todays fast moving world some god****s think we should dump it!! we were here befour the lot of them steeped in history, they only reason we dont speak irish is becaues we were invaded and it was knocked out of us by decades of english rule!! for exsample the germans, italians, french all speak tere native language becaues they were not invaded its thats simple!! keep what you got its ours and we should be proud we have a native language!! god only knows we need to hold onto our irish roots more than ever the why things are with the imf, ecb, irish and proud!! :-)

Young people are going through school and college to learn skills that will help them in life, There is not much use for Irish in the modern world unless you get a flat tyre out the the west of the country.

deise go deo · 07-05-2011 05:52PM

Show Time wrote: »

Young people are going through school and college to learn skills that will help them in life, There is not much use for Irish in the modern world unless you get a flat tyre out the the west of the country.

Interesting you should mention that, more and more young people are going through School and college through Irish.

Irish is useful for many things, say you want to get into television, if you have Irish you will progress in your career way faster than if you have only English.

Tell me what is there in the modern that you can't use Irish for?

RMD · 07-05-2011 05:55PM

Don't "ban" it but make it an optional course for the leaving cert. The 4 hours I spent a week studying a language which has no holding in modern society were 4 hours wasted IMO, could have spent that on a useful language such as French or German. If people are so worried about our culture, put in place a mandatory "Irish culture" class in it's place where our history, culture and arts are thought. Kind of like an Classical studies but focused entirely on Irish history / culture. People would have a much better knowledge of their heritage and culture than what currently exists as Irish teaches next to nothing in that sense.

Deise what holding does Irish have in the business world? How many deals are brokered through Irish?

hatz7 · 07-05-2011 05:59PM

Aimsigh wrote: »

I have seen several people saying that there should be a referendum to get rid of Irish, I have never seen anyone actually do anything about it though.

I would be interested to see how this would play out. If there was a referendum on removing Irish, would you vote to keep it, or ditch it?

Personally I don't really think there will ever be such a referendum, there is just no call for one now, and I doubt there ever will be.

I don't think that there would be a referendum either, but I would like to see Irish displaced from the compulsory position it enjoys to optional.

Ditch it, it sucks.

Catsmokinpot · 07-05-2011 05:59PM

PK2008 wrote: »

You're missing the point it, if everyone wanted to learn Irish they would, and we would all be speaking it now, just because its taught badly in school doesn't change the fact that people have no interest in learning it

Plus it doesn't matter how well any language is taught you are still going to have to put in years of effort to be proficient- people aren't arsed, especially for a language that has little use in the modern world

I know well that nobody wants to learn it, but I also don't know a single friend of mine now that doesn't wish they were fluent in Irish and that they had learned it/were taught it properly in school, and it does matter how a language is taught, how anything is taught is the difference between vaguely remembering and knowing...

You see it as having little or no value in the "modern world", fair enough, but I think it's you that missed the point, it's not about its use around the world, everyone can learn two languages, it's pure laziness on peoples part.

If you think English is useful, fair enough, its the language of business, but what about Spanish? It's far more peoples first language, so why not learn Spanish? its not about its usefulness its about reclaiming a piece of who you once were.

If I said I wanted to knock down the GPO in Dublin everyone would be in uproar because its easy to be offended when you don't have to put much effort into it. but when it comes to something that was actually stolen from you, you don't seem to care.

Krusader · 07-05-2011 06:00PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Interesting you should mention that, more and more young people are going through School and college through Irish.

Irish is useful for many things, say you want to get into television, if you have Irish you will progress in your career way faster than if you have only English.

Tell me what is there in the modern that you can't use Irish for?

Yes, people who speak Irish seem to have a wider circle of friends, these days thats a good thing, more people to put a good word in for you if you are looking for work and so on

RMD · 07-05-2011 06:09PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Yes, people who speak Irish seem to have a wider circle of friends, these days thats a good thing, more people to put a good word in for you if you are looking for work and so on

Where did you come up with the notion speaking Irish equals a larger group of friends? People with who are sociable and get on well with most people have large friends base, not because you have a good standing in Irish.

1: "Hey how's it going, you speak Irish?"
2: "Yes I do, in fact I have a good level of it to be honest"
1: "Oh really!!!@! Let's be friends then"
2: "Sure, I'd value your friendship much more than someone who doesn't speak Irish, hardy-hardy-har"

PK2008 · 07-05-2011 06:09PM

Catsmokinpot wrote: »

I know well that nobody wants to learn it, but I also don't know a single friend of mine now that doesn't wish they were fluent in Irish and that they had learned it/were taught it properly in school, and it does matter how a language is taught, how anything is taught is the difference between vaguely remembering and knowing...

You see it as having little or no value in the "modern world", fair enough, but I think it's you that missed the point, it's not about its use around the world, everyone can learn two languages, it's pure laziness on peoples part.

If you think English is useful, fair enough, its the language of business, but what about Spanish? It's far more peoples first language, so why not learn Spanish? its not about its usefulness its about reclaiming a piece of who you once were.

If I said I wanted to knock down the GPO in Dublin everyone would be in uproar because its easy to be offended when you don't have to put much effort into it. but when it comes to something that was actually stolen from you, you don't seem to care.

People blame school for all sorts of failings- if they were that interested in it they have lots of options outside of school to learn it.

People have a right to be lazy- if they dont want to learn it that's up to them. Can you speak it?

I dont want to learn Spanish because it is of no use to me- I am not saying Spanish isn't a useful language to know but regardless of how many people in the world speak it unless you either have a strong interest in a language or actually need to use it its doubtful you're gonna put in the effort of learning it- thats not lazy its just practical.

Bitterness about the past is not going to help revive the Irish language, get over it, the rest of us have.

Learning Irish should be optional - that way everyone's happy

Wibbs · 07-05-2011 06:24PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Yes, people who speak Irish seem to have a wider circle of friends

Good christ... You really couldn't write this stuff if you tried.

PandyAndy · 07-05-2011 06:30PM

Kojak wrote: »

I could go for that.

I'd say keep the irish, but don't teach it like they did in school where they have a talking elephant hanging around with a young fox and they wondering how to go to the shops to buy toffee, or some other inane situation like that.

Neilí Elephant, Ríra Fox, Micki Monkey and... something else, can't remember the fourth. I liked Ríra because he had a cool name. I think he wore dungarees too.

Edit: Yea, keep Irish.

Krusader · 07-05-2011 06:38PM

RMD wrote: »

Where did you come up with the notion speaking Irish equals a larger group of friends? People with who are sociable and get on well with most people have large friends base, not because you have a good standing in Irish.

1: "Hey how's it going, you speak Irish?"
2: "Yes I do, in fact I have a good level of it to be honest"
1: "Oh really!!!@! Let's be friends then"
2: "Sure, I'd value your friendship much more than someone who doesn't speak Irish, hardy-hardy-har"

http://www.nightcourses.com/irish-speakers-employment.html

Professor Borooah says: 'If you look at people who are in PMT(Professional/Managerial/Technical) jobs, such as doctors, teachers, nurses etc, a greater proportion of Irish speakers are in these jobs than non Irish speakers.

'One thing that emerges is that Irish speakers are better educated than non-Irish speakers. They do the kind of subjects that take them into these kinds of occupations.

'It's a network effect. If you are in a network of Irish speaking people and part of that culture, and some of them are already in good jobs, well if a vacancy comes up, all things being equal they will prefer an Irish speaker to a non-Irish speaker. It is a network; you belong to a ‘club’.

'Irish language schools produce results almost as good as fee paying schools and they certainly produce better results than English-language government school.'

stone roses · 07-05-2011 06:46PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd be aiming to up the standard of existing subjects of communication across the board. Not just Irish.

You do realise that other countries have been invaded and kept their languages? Or that your view may be incredibly narrow and simplistic? Italians speak Italian, yes? Italy had a load of quite different dialects before it was united. France also has pockets of Breton and Basque. Spain has 4 official languages.

Then "de Britz!!" :mad:grrr *shakes fist at perfidious Albion* Christ we really need to get the fúck over this. We've been invaded just the once pretty much yet we blame our woes on that. In one way we're very like the English on that score. Invaded nearly a 1000 years ago and still bitching about it. When I hear or read of some saddo little englander crowing on about "the frogs", I feel the same contempt for the sad little fool as I do when I hear some local twat witter on about "de Britz".

The English are but a part of the reason for it's decline, as is the teaching of it and government support. I say the main reason is us. Yep the Irish themselves. You and me. We simply don't see the value of it beyond using it as a whipping boy or cause celebre. We haven't since the mid 1800's. It was noted to be in decline then. If it's "our" language why do so few actually speak it? Well... can you speak it? I don't mean a cupla focal I mean to some degree of fluency?

labhraiom gaeilge agus go deimhim go han-mhaith, ta go leor tailte a bhi thaining ach ni mar a leath, cen faith dont muid dearmad heros agus an chuid eile den domha teres anoracha, smaoineamh lontach

i offen wonder are we irish or just another country!!

alex73 · 07-05-2011 06:47PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

If the language is left to die we won't be able to get it back. However i think there needs to be a different approach to the language in the country. Having to translate documents and signposts to Irish when everyone, even irish speakers can speak english is ridiculous and a waste of money plus it just creates more resentment towards the language.

The approach to the language in schools should be changed as well. A smarter approach to things would benefit the language more in the long term.

100% disagree with you... You a driving the little language we do use out of Ireland. Is not less signs... Its more signs we need. or... Just the Irish sign (but not easy for tourists)

I work for an american multinational and all the signs in the plant are in Irish and all the workforce knows what An Bialann means or Leithris, Seomra an Bhoird. We don't have use the English Translation at all, But using just the Irish words keeps them alive and present. Changing everything to English In IRELAND is crazy.. We are Irish.

Insect Overlord · 07-05-2011 06:50PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

http://www.nightcourses.com/irish-speakers-employment.html

I can't take that seriously at all. Primary teaching requires Irish, so it doesn't belong in that list by default. There's a high proportion of Irish speakers in secondary teaching because Irish is taught in every school.

Medicine requires top level points in the Leaving Cert, and nursing isn't a low points course either. These professions attract the kinds of people who do well in every subject in school. Irish just happens to be one of them.

Making out Gaeilge to be some sort of Stone-Cutters' club won't make it any more attractive to your average punter.

deise go deo · 07-05-2011 06:53PM

alex73 wrote: »

100% disagree with you... You a driving the little language we do use out of Ireland. Is not less signs... Its more signs we need. or... Just the Irish sign (but not easy for tourists)

I work for an american multinational and all the signs in the plant are in Irish and all the workforce knows what An Bialann means or Leithris, Seomra an Bhoird. We don't have use the English Translation at all, But using just the Irish words keeps them alive and present. Changing everything to English In IRELAND is crazy.. We are Irish.

Which multinational do you work for? They sound great, more of that needed.:)

Show Time · 07-05-2011 06:53PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Interesting you should mention that, more and more young people are going through School and college through Irish.

Irish is useful for many things, say you want to get into television, if you have Irish you will progress in your career way faster than if you have only English.

Tell me what is there in the modern that you can't use Irish for?

500 students were sitting exams for nursing with UCC this year and not one of them will get a job in Ireland. We will see a lot more of this for the next twenty years or so at least. If the children of our nation are going to have to go to foreign lands to earn a crust the least that can be done is to make sure they have skills they will use.
Now if you live in D4 and want to get onto the television then work away with the Irish but Irish is not much good if you are working in a assembly job like Dell for example or if you are in the navy as a navigator as i do not think sea charts are in Irish but i could be wrong.

Wibbs · 07-05-2011 06:57PM

That is one of the dafter extrapolations from raw data I've read in a while. It's reverso thinking. It does not mean Irish speakers "have more friends" or that you're more likely to get a job if you're an Irish speaker or even that they're hanging out in darkened rooms listening to jigs giving each other jobs. It simply means that more educated are more likely to speak or self report as speaking Irish. The more educated get better jobs. Jayzuz that's a revelation Ted. And this guy's a professor? Bloody hell. Parchment won't refuse ink it seems.

stone roses wrote:

labhraiom gaeilge agus go deimhim go han-mhaith, ta go leor tailte a bhi thaining ach ni mar a leath, cen faith dont muid dearmad heros agus an chuid eile den domha teres anoracha, smaoineamh lontach

Good manners suggest translations. Something I've found the more rabid Gaelgoires are often lacking without it being demanded.

i offen wonder are we irish or just another country!!

Oh good god man if we define yourself in such a narrow way we're doomed.

Insect Overlord · 07-05-2011 07:00PM

Show Time wrote: »

Now if you live in D4 and want to get onto the television then work away with the Irish but Irish is not much good if you are working in a assembly job like Dell for example or if you are in the navy as a navigator as i do not think sea charts are in Irish but i could be wrong.

Why not embrace the idea of being multi-lingual? Use English at work, Irish at home or with friends, French/German/Spanish/Japanese watching films, A.N.Other listening to music, etc.

I find it strange that so many people consider English the be all and end all.

alex73 · 07-05-2011 07:00PM

Show Time wrote: »

500 students were sitting exams for nursing with UCC this year and not one of them will get a job in Ireland. We will see a lot more of this for the next twenty years or so at least. If the children of our nation are going to have to go to foreign lands to earn a crust the least that can be done is to make sure they have skills they will use.
Now if you live in D4 and want to get onto the television then work away with the Irish but Irish is not much good if you are working in a assembly job like Dell for example or if you are in the navy as a navigator as i do not think sea charts are in Irish but i could be wrong.

Knowing fluently irish allows you to pick up a 3rd Language. Too many of the youth today spend hours infront of playstations/xboxs... So its not like we are asking them to ditch maths to study Irish. Did Poland get rid of their language because Russia invaded, or Greece when Turkey occupied it?

Reality is, being bilingual enables you to learn other skills quicker.

deise go deo · 07-05-2011 07:04PM

Show Time wrote: »

500 students were sitting exams for nursing with UCC this year and not one of them will get a job in Ireland. We will see a lot more of this for the next twenty years or so at least. If the children of our nation are going to have to go to foreign lands to earn a crust the least that can be done is to make sure they have skills they will use.
Now if you live in D4 and want to get onto the television then work away with the Irish but Irish is not much good if you are working in a assembly job like Dell for example or if you are in the navy as a navigator as i do not think sea charts are in Irish but i could be wrong.

What has D4 got to do with it? There are Irish speakers all over the country.

Learning a second language is very beneficial in education, with benefits to many other areas of learning such as the learners first language and maths. If we ever want to have a decent economy then education has to be central to it, and language learning will have to be central to education.

If we are going to teach people a language in school, we may as well teach them one they might actually use again, People are much more likely to have reason to use Irish again than any other language.

Show Time · 07-05-2011 07:06PM

alex73 wrote: »

Knowing fluently irish allows you to pick up a 3rd Language. Too many of the youth today spend hours infront of playstations/xboxs... So its not like we are asking them to ditch maths to study Irish. Did Poland get rid of their language because Russia invaded, or Greece when Turkey occupied it?

Reality is, being bilingual enables you to learn other skills quicker.

The youth of today are a step slower on the uptake then we were thirty odd years ago and you hit the mark when you put the blame on gaming systems.

PK2008 · 07-05-2011 07:09PM

deise go deo wrote: »

What has D4 got to do with it? There are Irish speakers all over the country.

Learning a second language is very beneficial in education, with benefits to many other areas of learning such as the learners first language and maths. If we ever want to have a decent economy then education is central to it, and language learning will be central to education.

If we are going to teach people a language in school, we may as well teach them one they might actually use again, People are much more likely to have reason to use Irish again than any other language.

I have lived in Ireland all my life and have never had a reason to use Irish outside of school, I have never found any benefit to be had in the 14 (or whatever) years of learning Irish.

I also did German in secondary school and recently went to Germany for a couple of months and lo and behold I got more benefit from my 3 years school German lessons in those 2 months than I did the 14 (or whatever) years Irish lessons in my whole life in Ireland

Your argument is invalid

dlofnep · 07-05-2011 07:14PM

PK2008 wrote: »

I have lived in Ireland all my life and have never had a reason to use Irish outside of school, I have never found any benefit to be had in the 14 (or whatever) years of learning Irish.

I also did German in secondary school and recently went to Germany for a couple of months and lo and behold I got more benefit from my 3 years school German lessons in those 2 months than I did the 14 (or whatever) years Irish lessons in my whole life in Ireland

Your argument is invalid

I also did German in secondary school. I haven't used it since. Your argument is invalid. I speak Irish every second day. See what I did there?

The vast majority of people in Ireland will never have to speak German or French. If they ever do - the quickest way to do so is to just move to the said country, and immerse yourself in the language. You'll never learn anything beyond basics in secondary unless you're in language-medium education that allow you to immerse yourself in it.

PK2008 · 07-05-2011 07:17PM

dlofnep wrote: »

I also did German in secondary school. I haven't used it since. Your argument is invalid. I speak Irish every second day. See what I did there?

The vast majority of people in Ireland will never have to speak German or French. If they ever do - the quickest way to do so is to just move to the said country, and immerse yourself in the language. You'll never learn anything beyond basics in secondary unless you're in language-medium education that allow you to immerse yourself in it.

The vast majority of people in Ireland will never have to speak Irish (outside of school)- see what I did there?

Wibbs · 07-05-2011 07:18PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

I find it strange that so many people consider English the be all and end all.

I don;t think they do IO. I certainly don't. Honestly? Cards on the table? For me and a lot of my urban generation, Irish was the language of the narrow minded bogger(not culshie), the backward and the imposed on the rest of us. It was up there with catholicism.

Actually Peig summed it up across the board. I really didn't want to be forced into reading about some superannuated backward god bothering Blasket island primitive who lurched from one whine to another with unerring rapidity. If the (untrue) cliche about Eskimos having 100 words for snow was true, then it surely seemed to us that Irish had 100 words for bitching and moaning. Great. How the fook did that shíte have any resonance for most urbanites or for that matter ruralites? It didn't and still doesn't. Irish contracted from an apogee of deep schoalarship and poetry to small rural and uneducated enclaves and the language contracted with it(naturally enough). There was the smell of the small enclave that came with it. Also the narrow defined chucky for good measure(and a lot of cassock followers too) So when I see a resurgence of that imposed crap like An Daingean and all that nonsense I think fook that. Not again.

I would hate to see it die out and it won't either, even if all the money dried up in the morning. And I know not all Irish speakers are like the rabid ones. It might be compared to the religious in a way. Most religious are pretty OK people like any of us, but the loudest are usually narrow headed nutjobs. Irish is full of the latter.

dlofnep · 07-05-2011 07:19PM

PK2008 wrote: »

The vast majority of people in Ireland will never have to speak Irish (outside of school)- see what I did there?

The vast majority of people in Ireland will never have to speak German or French outside school either. Why don't we cut them too? See what I did there?

PK2008 · 07-05-2011 07:21PM

dlofnep wrote: »

The vast majority of people in Ireland will never have to speak German or French outside school either. Why don't we cut them too? See what I did there?

They're optional, lets make Irish optional- see what I did there?

Insect Overlord · 07-05-2011 07:26PM

dlofnep wrote: »

The vast majority of people in Ireland will never have to speak German or French outside school either. Why don't we cut them too? See what I did there?

PK2008 wrote: »

They're optional, lets make Irish optional- see what I did there?

Lame...

Wibbs · 07-05-2011 07:26PM

alex73 wrote: »

Knowing fluently irish allows you to pick up a 3rd Language. Too many of the youth today spend hours infront of playstations/xboxs...

"Knowing fluently Irish"? Ehhhhh OK.

Show time wrote:

The youth of today are a step slower on the uptake then we were thirty odd years ago and you hit the mark when you put the blame on gaming systems.

Good God, who let the old folks in. *old creaky voice*"Down with the kidz these days". I've never heard such rot and if alex73 is a reflection of his birthdate I got the guts of a decade on him. The average "youth" of today has access to and knows more than the average child 30 years ago. This is a fact. Just because much of it may have left you behind doesn't mean it's a step backward.

So its not like we are asking them to ditch maths to study Irish. Did Poland get rid of their language because Russia invaded, or Greece when Turkey occupied it?

Nope. Nor Basque through centuries of conquests. Ask yourself why the Irish did.

dlofnep wrote:

The vast majority of people in Ireland will never have to speak German or French outside school either. Why don't we cut them too? See what I did there?

You can. They're optional. See what I did there?

Irish Language, Keep it or Ditch it?

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