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Harney Gets €450K Libel Payout

24567

Comments

  • #32
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    almostnever wrote: »
    The problem is that the damages for defamation are determined by a jury and the damages for personal injuries aren't. Juries tend to be considerably more generous when awarding damages, and the discrepancy between damages for personal injury and defamation is a recurring theme in the law of tort.

    And they tend to award rich people considerably more for defamation, seems a wealthy person's reputation is more important than normal folk.

    Another poster has said it would have prevented her from taking up directorships and such, I think the incredible mess she made of the health service would be a far bigger reason for her being less employable.


  • #33
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    pay her in cheese and see how she bleedin likes it!


  • #34
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    your earlier statement seemed to me at least to make the case out more severe, not that it isnt serious, which it is.

    It is more worse - but we have been advised as to amounts our daughter might win going on previous cases which some judges and Personal Injuries Boards look to for levels of previous awards.

    As a previous poster rightly alluded to :
    The problem is that the damages for defamation are determined by a jury and the damages for personal injuries aren't. Juries tend to be considerably more generous when awarding damages, and the discrepancy between damages for personal injury and defamation is a recurring theme in the law of tort.
    100% correct.
    You get my daughter in front of a jury, show them the year of hell she went through in photographic terms alone...

    ...a simple example of our child: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6789/skin2s.jpg or http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6301/legsn.jpg (taken during recovery - WARNING: GRAPHIC)

    ...then she might get HUGE amounts via an emotional caring human jury.
    However she is up before a Personal Injuries Board which consists of office block professionals sitting around a table somewhere deciding on the latest numbered case.

    Now Harney can (rightly) come alone with her case and go in front of a peoples jury and win larger amounts - and this is also because - regardless of the preciseness of the actual law in words - juries decisions oft times are based on emotions and personal experiences (or thru friends similar experiences) and subsequently payouts can be huge.

    Its the juries themselves that companies, newspapers etc fear. Juries decisions can go massively either way!
    If Harneys case landed before a more cold professional office team for a decision, she might have got much less.


  • #35
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    Predalien wrote: »
    And they tend to award rich people considerably more for defamation, seems a wealthy person's reputation is more important than normal folk. .

    in the eyes of a court...sadly yes thats a fact of the syste when it comes to defamation, famous peoples reputation makes or breaks their career and also the number of people whom heard the comments influences it.


    compared to cases in print media, newstalk got off lightly


  • #36
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    spurious wrote: »
    She will probably give it to charity.

    Oh noes! At least the rabble can still slag her cos she's fat.

    She'll spend it supermacs more like


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  • #37
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    Biggins wrote: »
    It is more worse - but we have been advised to to amounts our daughter might win going on previous cases which some judges and Personal Injuries Boards look to for levels of awards.

    As a previous poster rightly alluded to :

    100% correct.
    You get my daughter in front of a jury, show them the year of hell she went through in photographic terms alone
    ...(a simple example of our child: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6789/skin2s.jpg)
    ...then she might get HUGE amounts via an emotional caring human jury.
    However she is up before a Personal Injuries Board which consists of office block professionals sitting around a table somewhere deciding on the latest numbered case.

    Now Harney can (rightly) come alone with her case and go in front of a peoples jury and win larger amounts - and this is also because - regardless of the preciseness of the actual law in words - juries decisions oft times are based on emotions and personal experiences (or thru friends similar experiences) and subsequently payouts can be huge.

    Its the juries themselves that companies, newspapers etc fear. Juries decisions can go massively either way!
    If Harneys case landed before a more cold professional office team for a decision, she might have got much less.

    First, I wish you well in the resolution of your own troubles Biggins.

    However, it must to be noted that this matter has never been before a court, or before a jury. It was a settlement, which was entered into by the two parties, for whatever reason. Thus, it is not a case of two-speed justice. It is simply the case that resolution has been reached by alternative means.


  • #38
    subway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭subway


    i'm sure she will donate it to charity.


  • #39
    mirwillbeback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭mirwillbeback


    Biggins wrote: »
    It is more worse - but we have been advised to to amounts our daughter might win going on previous cases which some judges and Personal Injuries Boards look to for levels of previous awards.

    As a previous poster rightly alluded to :

    100% correct.
    You get my daughter in front of a jury, show them the year of hell she went through in photographic terms alone...

    ...a simple example of our child: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6789/skin2s.jpg or http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6301/legsn.jpg (taken during recovery - WARNING: GRAPHIC)

    ...then she might get HUGE amounts via an emotional caring human jury.
    However she is up before a Personal Injuries Board which consists of office block professionals sitting around a table somewhere deciding on the latest numbered case.

    Now Harney can (rightly) come alone with her case and go in front of a peoples jury and win larger amounts - and this is also because - regardless of the preciseness of the actual law in words - juries decisions oft times are based on emotions and personal experiences (or thru friends similar experiences) and subsequently payouts can be huge.

    Its the juries themselves that companies, newspapers etc fear. Juries decisions can go massively either way!
    If Harneys case landed before a more cold professional office team for a decision, she might have got much less.

    :mad:

    Biggins, I can only wish you well in your quest, that is shocking to occur to a child or anyone. I also notice that your response to COYW was met with a deafening silence, so I imagine he is well and truly put in his place.

    On your case, I am not sure if there is anything the Boardsies can do as it is in the legal domain, but if there were ( ie a petition or anything ) I'd be willing to organise it - might not be a goer, I am not really au fait which such cases.

    Anyhow, best of luck in your case, maybe keep us / we posted.

    Take care


  • #40
    enda1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,165 ✭✭✭enda1


    Biggins wrote: »
    ...The sad and laughing (not really!) part is that its well, well known in Dublin by previous occupants in the Dail and Journalists as to the real facts of the matter!

    Yes its well known that she's no an alcoholic. Its well known that you're wrong. Its well known that the case was a settlement, not a judgement as you seem to believe. Its well known that the amount of money in question is not only related to the seriousness, but also related to the earning potential of the individual and the expected damage made by the remark to the projected earnings.

    Your constant slurs against her, thinly veiled as they are, are pathetic.


  • #41
    almostnever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭almostnever


    WindSock wrote: »
    What kind of jury in this country would deem that an acceptable amount?

    It happens all the time. Sure remember this last year?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1117/kinsellad.html

    It actually happened as we were studying defamation in torts, even my lecturer was speechless. But the damages for defamation are, as a rule, disproportionately high. Even before the award for €10m, our lecturer said to get the award for personal injuries that you'd get for defamation you'd have to lose your sight, hearing, the use of your limbs and have your injury in some way aggravated by the conduct of the other party. Crazy stuff really. It's one of the reasons why the new Act allows the Supreme Court on appeal to substitute an appropriate measure of damages. Although I'd say it was a missed opportunity to abolish the use of juries in defamation altogether, but that's another matter.


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  • #42
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Het-Field wrote: »
    ...it must to be noted that this matter has never been before a court, or before a jury. It was a settlement, which was entered into by the two parties, for whatever reason. Thus, it is not a case of two-speed justice. It is simply the case that resolution has been reached by alternative means.
    O' indeed.
    (I really don't want to side track the thread)
    I will just say that if same boards can be set-up for such claims as Harneys, there might be seen not just in my daughters case but in others, equal justice (and time) in the eyes of the law might be seen.
    The young girl in the Irish Times report did indeed go before a "Personal Injuries Board" - but trust me, the speed at which they operate is absolutely crazily slow (years!) and thats just to get to that point of they getting involved in any one case.
    ...Whereas jury courts (with the right high priced legal team) can have you sorted out in months - sadly out of the reach of the vast bulk of the population.

    Its the unfairness of the law and juries for one and 'Boards' for others that create the unbalance.


  • #43
    cosanostra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 888 ✭✭✭cosanostra


    Is this the most Denis o Brien has paid a politician now?

    I think common sense should have prevailed here an apology was made no harm was done, as was said on the Vinvent Browne show last night this money could end up costing jobs at Newstalk!


  • #44
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    enda1 wrote: »
    Yes its well known that she's no an alcoholic. Its well known that you're wrong. Its well known that the case was a settlement, not a judgement as you seem to believe. Its well known that the amount of money in question is not only related to the seriousness, but also related to the earning potential of the individual and the expected damage made by the remark to the projected earnings.

    Your constant slurs against her, thinly veiled as they are, are pathetic.

    I did NOT state above as to her habits or possible medical condition either way - please don't put words in my mouth.
    I stated that those that have worked with her or around her, besides the Dublin journalists, know just the truths of the matter.
    End of story.

    You think she is not as was made out to be on the radio? Fair enough!


  • #45
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    mirwillbeback wrote: »
    :mad:

    Biggins, I can only wish you well in your quest...
    ...Anyhow, best of luck in your case, maybe keep us / we posted.

    I am but of one of many similar cases - there is 600+ currently being taken in England alone on this matter.
    (See here)
    The wife and I will just continue to let the legal process sort it all out. Its all we can do for our daughter. :)


  • #46
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    Biggins wrote: »
    know just the truths of the matter.
    End of story.

    your opinion. not the truth as the court ruled othewise. i'll leant with the courts over rambling journos on this one


  • #47
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Het-Field wrote: »
    First, I wish you well in the resolution of your own troubles Biggins.

    However, it must to be noted that this matter has never been before a court, or before a jury. It was a settlement, which was entered into by the two parties, for whatever reason. Thus, it is not a case of two-speed justice. It is simply the case that resolution has been reached by alternative means.
    But the reason they settled for 450k was that they knew the court would award a similar figure.
    subway wrote: »
    i'm sure she will donate it to charity.

    that, or kfc.


  • #48
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    your opinion. not the truth as the court ruled othewise. i'll leant with the courts over rambling journos on this one

    ...And quite correct.


  • #49
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    The drinks are on her tonight then


  • #50
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,119 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    Er..the case was settled out of court.
    Dunno if she'd have got more in a jury situation, most people would've interaction with the Health Services, she's not the most popular woman on the planet.

    Harney gets
    An annual ministerial pension of about €69,200,
    A TD's pension of around €50,600 per year
    A pension lump sum of around €160,000
    A termination lump sum of around €17,000
    And a year of monthly termination payments from the Oireachtas worth another €66,900.


  • #51
    Contra Proferentem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭Contra Proferentem


    Biggins wrote: »
    The Journal.ie reported same yesterday, they were taking reporting from the words from the editor of the The Phoenix too.

    Pure madness the amount she got.

    I'm currently fighting a serious medical case (toxin in sofa nealy killed her and kept her in bandages head to toe for six months - made national and English headlines) on behalf of my daughter (who also has Scolioses), which has been (and still is) dragging on for years ...and we will be luck to get for her year of pain even €20k!

    Yet this cow can get half a million because she was insulted over the fact that she was supposedly drinking under her own effort - in a far, far shorted period of time court-wise!

    Thats the state of the Irish law at times. All fcuked up!
    One law for 'them' and one more backward one for the rest of us!
    Every case is different and needs to be considered as such. No doubt it's a woeful situation that you describe, I remember reading of those toxic sofas and was thankful that no one I knew had gotten one.

    One of the differences in this case is that the station, Newstalk, settled outside of court with Harney. This means they weren't contesting the issue in court. In your case, perhaps the company responsible is contesting or delaying and sadly that's just the way the system works at times. No one has ever claimed that it was perfect.

    The PIAB (Personal Injuries Assessment Board) is designed to provide a way to resolve a large amount of injury claims in a transparent and reasonably prompt way. The strain placed on the courts by the number of claims was then reduced, and the courts become the last resort. It deals with most personal injury cases except medical negligence.

    This whole thing of money buying better lawyers, better justice, etc. is pointless. You cannot pin it to the legal system or profession, because in the current way society is ordered (i.e: capitalism), more money gets you a better house, better sofa, better toaster, better computer, etc., etc.

    Note: Last time Harney won a defamation claim, she donated it to charity. Write to her and tell her to give it to FLAC so people without money can get better legal advice, Biggins.


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  • #52
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Well she is gone out of politics and thats that.
    I hope she does donate to a hospital (or charity somewhere). Lord knows under the present state of the country, many need it.
    She could retire quite comfortably (she probably won't and fair enough) with her current income/pensions anyway.


  • #53
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well she is gone out of politics and thats that.
    I hope she does donate to a hospital (or charity somewhere). Lord knows under the present state of the country, many need it.
    She could retire quite comfortably (she probably won't and fair enough) with her current income/pensions anyway.

    we're talking about a FFer, there are two chances of them putting someone else ahead of their own personal gains


  • #54
    Contra Proferentem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭Contra Proferentem


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well she is gone out of politics and thats that.
    I hope she does donate to a hospital (or charity somewhere). Lord knows under the present state of the country, many need it.
    She could retire quite comfortably (she probably won't and fair enough) with her current income/pensions anyway.
    I do hope you get things resolved soon and are compensated for the trouble. Its one of the most terrifying stories I've ever read to be honest, mainly due to the fact that there was no way for the customers to know what was causing their illness.

    The EU is/has put in a directive to prevent the chemical from being used in consumer products again, so that's a small consolation.


  • #55
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Contra Proferentem wrote: »
    One of the differences in this case is that the station, Newstalk, settled outside of court with Harney. This means they weren't contesting the issue in court...

    Indeed, I suspect that Newstalk feared the outcome of a possible Jury trial had it come about.
    As I mentioned earlier, such cases can go big time either way - and in this case the facts of the matter swayed in Harney's favour. Thus the settlement.
    (A LOT of cases are actually settled just outside the actual doors of the Dublin Central Court alone by lawyers just standing around negotiating on the day of many cases. Its a lesson in itself just to see them sorting it all out in the corridors before entering the actual court room, fearing a judge/jury decision)

    Contra Proferentem wrote: »
    ...In your case, perhaps the company responsible is contesting or delaying and sadly that's just the way the system works at times. No one has ever claimed that it was perfect.

    The PIAB (Personal Injuries Assessment Board) is designed to provide a way to resolve a large amount of injury claims in a transparent and reasonably prompt way. The strain placed on the courts by the number of claims was then reduced, and the courts become the last resort. It deals with most personal injury cases except medical negligence.
    The company we are dealing with is officially gone.
    (They cleverly legally renamed themselves - but have same staff, management, buildings and stock!)
    We are dealing with their previous insurance crowd and the PIAB. :)
    Contra Proferentem wrote: »
    ...This whole thing of money buying better lawyers, better justice, etc. is pointless. You cannot pin it to the legal system or profession, because in the current way society is ordered (i.e: capitalism), more money gets you a better house, better sofa, better toaster, better computer, etc., etc...
    You have a point however in cases such as high profile Harney, Newstalk would see (her?) large legal teams which would bog them down for months (and lord knows their charges would be massive too - which a loser would also have to pay!), there would be continuing bad publicity and given the sway of the evidence, it would have probably been cheaper to go with a out of court settlement.

    In monetary terms alone and access to same large legal teams, such power and influence to bring about a similar situation for the average citizen is beyond mosts reach. :)


  • #56
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61,082 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Fair play to her. She stood up for herself and was vindicated. Might put bloody manners on these people who think they can go around sullying other persons' names


  • #57
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Ah sure all Newstalk have to do is increase their adbreaks now...


  • #58
    Contra Proferentem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭Contra Proferentem


    Biggins wrote: »
    The company we are dealing with is officially gone.
    (They cleverly legally renamed themselves - but have same staff, management, buildings and stock!)

    We are dealing with their previous insurance crowd and the PIAB. :)
    The Courts can "lift the corporate veil" in cases where companies re-name themselves to avoid prosecution or legal action. I'm sure that your solicitor (I assume you engaged one to handle the PIAB process) would have looked at that already though.

    I'd be interested in seeing how the PIAB route works out. As a student I've been led to the view to rely on them a lot rather than repudiate the process and challenge the award.

    No doubt the ability to access legal advice and representation is a problem for the general public, especially in civil matters like this. There is the stereotypical image of the scumbag constantly claiming free legal aid that needs to be wiped from the public psyche.


  • #59
    easyeason3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭easyeason3


    walshb wrote: »
    Fair play to her. She stood up for herself and was vindicated. Might put bloody manners on these people who think they can go around sullying other persons names


    I would agree with you if she donated all of the money to a charity. She's hardly short of a few euro.

    However if she persued this purely for financial gain rather than making a point that her name was sullied then I hope she has no luck with the money.


  • #60
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    WindSock wrote: »
    Ah sure all Newstalk have to do is increase their adbreaks now...

    Aye, add on a bit more charge to each advertiser for a while.
    Job done, cash recovered.


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  • #61
    User Friendly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭User Friendly


    WindSock wrote: »
    Ah sure all Newstalk have to do is increase their adbreaks now...
    ahh no....... not allowed to do that. broadcasting an all that.


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