Pope warns: West seems 'tired' of faith

I understand what you are saying Jammie Dodger. Many people think they are A-OK. And they really believe it.

This webpage might help you understand how one can think they are A-OK, but in reality, they are, as I have said, deeply in need of God. But being blind to the reality of the situation, they cannot see their their own wretchedness.

How do you get well if you don’t even know you are sick?

Robert ninja wrote: »

The catholic church does teach that you are bound to hell by default from original sin. When a baby is born, it's sinful - I think baptism has something to do with that. Unbaptised babies are bound to hell too. But of course, you can go ahead and pull just one of the thousands of denominations of christianity and say, "No." To pretty much anything I presume about christianity.

As for sin, I don't believe in the concept of sin. I believe there's bad deeds but no sin. For example, in christianity... my boner is a sin.

Babies are born with original sin, but without personal sin. Original sin is the deprivation of God, and the inclination towards evil called concupiscence, and so those who are left in that state without the direct intervention of God are in big trouble. God knew this and sent His own Son to sort out the mess.

Again, bad deeds and sin are synonymous. Meanwhile, spontaneous boners are not sinful unless you wilfully consent to illicit sexual pleasure (that is, sexual pleasure indulged in outside the union of marriage which is open to new life), in which case, it then becomes sinful.

Robert ninja wrote: »

By big trouble, you mean hell-bound... and also babies are sick the minute they're born. Correct? If so... you're not disagreeing with me about what I said about being sick/filthy by default.

They actually are if it's caused by a woman.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28.

I may be wrong but I think adultery is a sin. Also, I couldn't quote that verse from my bible since I packed it away with a lot of other books (moving furniture) and I got that one from the internet so it could be a bit off for all I know. (had it circled in the bible I own)

There is a difference between being sick and being filthy, is there not? We are sick. At birth we are born without the direct vision of God, indeed we cannot see him in our fallen state. We are also inclined to that which is evil. Our personal sins make us filthy, this is true. And they must be forgiven if we are to be reconciled with God. Baptism remits original sin - we are made at rights with God, we are put into a place of grace, of friendship with God; it also washes away all personal sin if there is any (i.e. in a child at the age of reason or beyond, or an adult)

Yes, adultery is a sin, and looking at other people lustfully is also a sin. But the arousal you experience if you see an attractive person is not sinful per se. If you see an attractive person, the body may react in a very quick way. What we do next affects whether what follows is sinful or not. If I see an attractive girl, I may experience a thrill, a rush of arousal, even physically, but there is no sin if I will to do what is good. What is good in this instance is to to acknowledge that the person is a child of God and therefore not to be used as an object of lust. Your will is fixed on what is good. If you do that, there is no sin. What would be sinful would be if you decided to dwell on your spontaneous feelings and thoughts of lustfulness, objectifying the person, and committing the sin of lust which the Lord talks about in the Gospel.

Many people think the Gospel is impossible, but I am living proof that it is not. I used to be very lustful and I would look lustfully at women. But now, I can look at a lady and admire her as attractive, but my mind and will are now trained (not perfectly mind - I do stumble occasionally ) to not lust, to not objectify the other person. It's perfectly possible for God does not require of us the impossible - His grace is enough. One of the best ways to manage this is prayer, obviously since this is a spiritual battle, but also the habit of not fixing your gaze on attractive persons.

If you want more information on chastity and the Church's teachings, see here.

Robert ninja wrote: »

Thanks for the link. Now then.

Alright, let me just clear this up because it's getting messy. By filthy and sick I just meant the same thing... sinful from birth. I wasn't talking about being literally and physicall sick/filthy.

As for the rest you said about my lust being sinful... I honestly just don't follow you. The entire thing doesn't make sense to me. First it's a sin, then it's not, then it is again. I can't keep up. It's either a sin to get horny from a girl ya like or it's not. And the bible tells me it's a sin. Thing is, though, I don't believe in the concept of sin as I said earlier and I also don't think it's a bad thing to be sexually attracted to people. It's possibly one of the most natural human things in fact... and of course religion makes it out that anything natural (and completely unavoidable) is sinful. That's how they hook and scare ya. There's some thought crime going on about here, too.

Sexual attraction is not sinful; it was made by God. The sin of lust comes in when we seek sexual gratification for its own sake, outside the sacrament of marriage, that union between one man and one woman which is open to new life.

We have appetites and passions, but we must learn self-mastery and self-control. Because of the fall, our passions are disordered and all over the place.

Don't worry about not understanding - most Catholics haven't a clue and it was only in fairly recent years that I was able to understand the whole deal about lust, what is a sin and what isn't etc... Read that link I gave you as it explains this a lot better than I could.

I'm Catholic so I can only speak of my own Church's teachings. Some Protestants believe that man is totally depraved. That is not a Catholic teaching. The Church teaches that although man is fallen, he remains basically good, although man is wounded in his nature and is inclined towards evil, an inclination the Church calls concupiscence.

Let me put it like this: when you smell cookies, perhaps freshly baked cookies, your mouth waters. This is spontaneous and it can't be helped. In a similar way, when you see an attractive person, your body reacts in a spontaneous way. At this stage, we are dealing merely with physiological processes. There is no sin in that - our bodies were made by God and are good. The sin comes in when we decide, when we will to dwell, to indulge, to engage with our feeling and thoughts for the purposes of illicit sexual gratification. I've given advice on what to do and provided a link to a website with guidance on these matters.

If you want to know the Catholic definition of lust it is thus:

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

You can read more about the Sixth Commandment here in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Robert ninja wrote: »

So it's just self control? I can feel as much lust as I want but as long as I don't act on it it's fine? Wow, that's not what I read in the bible but if that's what ya believe, sure - I have way more self control than many priests.

Anyway, with your cookie analogy... some more confusion. The smell of really nice food makes me want to eat the food (unless I'm stuffed). There may be no bodily reaction. But as long as I don't actually intend to eat it (don't have the money for) then no sin is commited. I guess then, for example... if a person saw a 10 year old child and got sexually aroused, but they didn't INTEND to do anything physically to the child... all is well.

Not quite. Why don't you read the section of the Catechism on the Sixth Commandment?

It's late and I'm tired. Why don't you start a new thread about this subject? We can pick up on this tomorrow.