Uniformed Garda Armed

Einhard · 01-05-2011 05:49PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I get what you're saying but it's not as simple as that. When I was a lad I was scared sh1tless of the boys in blue, because I thought I should be. In fact I would have felt the same about most of my elders. Young lads now couldn't give to fcuks and are more than happy to abuse, spit in the face of Gardai. They wouldn't be as quick to do it if the fuzz were packing.

Fear is not respect though. And if I were a young thug, and I feared the police because they were packing and I wasn't, I know what I'd do...

IMO arming all Gardai would do an awful lot to combat the scumbag fraternity in every town in this country.

How? I mean the police have all the powers they need to combat petty lawbreakers. I don't think weapons are a good means to deter anti-social behaviour of the type you seem to be talking about.

vampire of kilmainham · 01-05-2011 05:50PM

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I'd rather more gards than guns ,a gun won't stop crime.

guns dont stop crime but i think as the way things are now uniform gardai should be armed it would require extensive training though ya cant just strap on a sidearm there's a lot of tactics involved in how and when to use wepon i often see now as well plain cloths officers maybe in shops or garges filling patrol cars or whatever with a clip on holster and gun seen a women cop only a few nites back in a local shop in jeans and a top with a gun strapped to her waist she had her ID on a cord around her neck and she was on her own...

Dyr · 01-05-2011 05:50PM

JohnathanM wrote: »

Referring to the deaf guy shot from behind in Seattle? Horrible, that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjFsmTDWuQ

The problem with giving people guns, is that they aren't always going to use them responsibly. The situation in this country is nowhere near serious enough to warrant an all-armed police force.

He was'nt deaf..don't let that get in the way though

Big Nasty · 01-05-2011 05:50PM

yoshytoshy wrote: »

But what would it do to the relationship of people who currently find the gardai approachable.

I wouldn't have any problem walking up to a Gard to ask a question or whatever just because he's packing.

MagicSean · 01-05-2011 05:51PM

Biggins wrote: »

True but then if the criminal has a gun ANYWAY, he's either going to use it or not to improve his getaway chances.
If thats the case, Gardi I feel should stand an equal chance of defending themselves and their own lives, never mind fighting back in advancing.

But it can't be done in half measures. It's all or nothing. If some Gardaí aren't armed then they will have to be distinguishable from the ones that are.

Biggins · 01-05-2011 05:52PM

k_mac wrote: »

But it can't be done in half measures. It's all or nothing. If some Gardaí aren't armed then they will have to be distinguishable from the ones that are.

Maybe so, its an idea alright!
...And much heavier sentencing for firing upon unarmed Gardi?

Honestly, I just don't know whats the perfect solution - but then again, I don't think there is one.

Big Nasty · 01-05-2011 05:54PM

My name is URL wrote: »

In what way? There already are armed units which can respond rapidly when they are required. The Gardai would only be warranted to use their weapons in specific scenarios anyway, and in those scenarios the armed units are dispatched.

Armed response unit are only called in when things get serious.

JohnathanM wrote: »

I don't think guns will fix this - you can't have police just drawing a gun to make a point, as any response they give needs to be proportionate. The problem there seems to have more to do with the fact that the judicial system will do nothing. How often do you hear people complaining about the little scrote with a string of convictions back on the streets, whilst the guy who won't pay his TV licence might well end up doing time? That kind of problem needs to be fixed from the top-down, not bottom-up.

They don't need to draw anything - having the gun in their posession should be deterrent enough for lower level scroates.

vampire of kilmainham · 01-05-2011 05:56PM

Spunge wrote: »

I enjoy whittling on the street while not being shot, so no thanks.

ya wont get shot just because gardai would be carrying guns people in other countries dont get shot and the police are all packing heat it's only rare that it does happen:eek:

Einhard · 01-05-2011 05:56PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

They don't need to draw anything - having the gun in their posession should be deterrent enough for lower level scroates.

Enough to deter them from doing what? I don't understand this- if a scumbag sees an unarmed cop, he'll carry on with whatever mischief he's up to, but if he sees an armed guard, he'll immediately stop, even though he knows the guard is hardly likely to shoot him?

Voodoomelon · 01-05-2011 05:58PM

Einhard wrote: »

No it doesn't. Respect is earned, by the conduct of the force in general, and by individual officers. It doesn't appear suddenly because someone has a gun. Indeed, when I'm abroad, I often feel slightly uncomfortable when I see weapons hanging from the hips of the police. I think arming all police could make them slightly less accessible to the general public, and this would be a bad thing IMO.

Then why have the Gardaí no respect? That uncomfortable feeling you get, which i admit I get too, is a combination respect and fear. You respect and fear the fact that he has more physical capability than you do. Should we fear our protectors? Of course not, but i'd rather be somewhat intimidated by a police officer than to think I could beat the sh1t out of him no problem, which so many scum think.

Normal, law-obiding people should have no reason to feel intimidated by an armed police officer, its just we're not used to it yet.

Bosco boy · 01-05-2011 05:58PM

There are almost 2000 armed police in this country, nearly all in plain clothes, the regional support units and Eru are also there, most uniformed members would not want to be armed but would like the support of the likes of the RSU. I think the present system has the right balance. Personally I think an unarmed officer is far more approchable to the public and is one of the reasons why the gardai have more public support than forces who are visably armed. Most officers in the US who are shot are shot with their own weapon which has been taken from them. I wouldn't like to have a gun stapped to my side while wrestling with a drunken fool in a Saturday night.

Big Nasty · 01-05-2011 05:59PM

Einhard wrote: »

Enough to deter them from doing what? I don't understand this- if a scumbag sees an unarmed cop, he'll carry on with whatever mischief he's up to, but if he sees an armed guard, he'll immediately stop, even though he knows the guard is hardly likely to shoot him?

Yeah, pretty much - wouldn't you?

IngazZagni · 01-05-2011 05:59PM

Einhard wrote: »

Enough to deter them from doing what? I don't understand this- if a scumbag sees an unarmed cop, he'll carry on with whatever mischief he's up to, but if he sees an armed guard, he'll immediately stop, even though he knows the guard is hardly likely to shoot him?

They know that if they don't stop they will likely have a gun drawn on them, that's what the deterrent will be. Knowing the guard is not armed and knowing the guard is armed are two big different mental factors.

JohnathanM · 01-05-2011 06:00PM

Bambi wrote: »

He was'nt deaf..don't let that get in the way though

I won't, as I'd already clarified that he was actually partially deaf. Let's not worry about the posing no threat and shot from behind things, either.

Overheal · 01-05-2011 06:04PM

JohnathanM wrote: »

I know! Can you imagine having the audacity to hold a small knife and be seen clearly whittling a piece of wood? Who did he think he was, keeping himself to himself and posing absolutely no threat to anybody? What a f'er!

yeah you go ahead and try walking down the street of dublin whittling a piece of wood - oh wait you cant, because you can't have knives.

Not saying the cop was right, but you're being hypocritical.

Einhard · 01-05-2011 06:05PM

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Then why have the Gardaí no respect?

This isn't true. I respect the Gardaí. Many people do. Anyway, as I pointed out, respect can't be imposed simply by carrying a gun about yhe place. There's a difference between respect and fear- and fear can be countered by the simple expedient of carrying a bigger gun.

That uncomfortable feeling you get, which i admit I get too, is a combination respect and fear. You respect and fear the fact that he has more physical capability than you do.

I respect them anyway. And it's not fear, because I know he's not going to use it. I just think arming a force that should be as accessible as possible to the public will run counter to that obligation.

Should we fear our protectors? Of course not, but i'd rather be somewhat intimidated by a police officer than to think I could beat the sh1t out of him no problem, which so many scum think.

I'd agree with arming the force if there was a consistent pattern of Gardaí being harmed because they lack adequate protection. As there's no such pattern, I ask, why invent a solution for a non-issue?

JohnathanM · 01-05-2011 06:07PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

They don't need to draw anything - having the gun in their posession should be deterrent enough for lower level scroates.

I see what you mean, but if the gun is not going to be drawn then why worry? Police in other countries in Europe get abuse too, but from my own experiences of living in them they have a natural authority. Insult the police in Germany, and you're going nowhere for a while; they will prosecute you, and will see to it that you are punished. Their authority comes from their willingness to act, and the support the system gives them to do that. I just don't feel that we have that here, and need to sort that out first.

Dyr · 01-05-2011 06:08PM

JohnathanM wrote: »

I won't, as I'd already clarified that he was actually partially deaf. Let's not worry about the posing no threat and shot from behind things, either.

You classify a drunk mentaller with a knife in his hand as no threat? Fair play

Einhard · 01-05-2011 06:11PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Yeah, pretty much - wouldn't you?

The point is that the officer already has the power and authority to command the malefactor to stop.

IngazZagni wrote: »

They know that if they don't stop they will likely have a gun drawn on them, that's what the deterrent will be. Knowing the guard is not armed and knowing the guard is armed are two big different mental factors.

If a guard can't enforce his will over some petty scumbags then he's not much of a guard. Also, I don't want a situation where the Gardaí are pulling their weapons over petty misdemeanours.

JohnathanM · 01-05-2011 06:11PM

Overheal wrote: »

yeah you go ahead and try walking down the street of dublin whittling a piece of wood - oh wait you cant, because you can't have knives.

Not saying the cop was right, but you're being hypocritical.

You've lost me here. How am I being hypocritical?

JohnathanM · 01-05-2011 06:13PM

Bambi wrote: »

You classify a drunk mentaller with a knife in his hand as no threat? Fair play

Are you suggesting that the policeman knew him to be a drunk mentaller? From that, are you also saying that a man with mental problems reported as an inebriate deserves to die, for carrying a small knife? There were better ways of handling a situation like that.

Adamisconfused · 01-05-2011 06:14PM

Einhard wrote: »

The criminals in this instance were understandably trying to get away. Knowing that the cop was unarmed, they knew they could achieve this by just beating him into submission. However, had he a gun, it is far more likely that they would have used there own weapons to escape. If we arm the police, the criminals will respond in kind, and it could well result in more police being killed or seriously injured.

Wasn't that one of the reasons why the Gardaí remained unarmed during the troubles? If there was ever a time to arm them, that would have been the time. Maybe it just entered folklore as a reason why they weren't routinely armed, but it makes some sense especially as there are numerous occasions I can think of where they simply would have been killed on the spot if they had been armed. The IRA would have also rescinded their General Order No. 8 forbidding action against the forces from the Republic.

Bosco boy · 01-05-2011 06:17PM

Adamisconfused wrote: »

Wasn't that one of the reasons why the Gardaí remained unarmed during the troubles? If there was ever a time to arm them, that would have been the time. Maybe it just entered folklore as a reason why they weren't routinely armed, but it makes some sense especially as there are numerous occasions I can think of where they simply would have been killed on the spot if they had been armed. The IRA would have also rescinded their General Order No. 8 forbidding action against the forces from the Republic.

That applied when it suited them. There were many exceptions tragically!

RichieC · 01-05-2011 06:18PM

I think they should, but it's a double edged sword when you see some of the crap that goes on stateside like the BART shooting...

"i thought it was my tazer" - yea right, mate.

vampire of kilmainham · 01-05-2011 06:19PM

true-or-false wrote: »

No way. While I'm sure there are plenty of sensible, honest gardai out there, I wouldn't trust them enough to give them guns. In fact, no matter what profession it is, I think it's ridiculous to take an entire profession and arm them. There's always going to be a few idiots in any bunch, in this case probably more than a few. Plus there are some who join the gardai for the power kick. I'd say if we armed them there'd be an influx of young lads who like the idea of hauling a firearm round with them.

There's also the argument that while we have a lot of knife crime, and some gun crime, if we arm our gardai, criminal organisations will start arming their people too. I'd rather knife crime than gun crime. It's a stepping stone, whereby criminal organisations will be more interested in guns, then your garden variety scumbag will want a gun, then the public will start wanting guns. I know it sounds a bit hysterical, but seriously, guns would become far more commonplace.

Also, mistakes happen. Arresting someone by mistake is one thing, shooting someone? No thanks.

gardai would get extensive training if they were ever issued with guns the same as they do in other countries criminals in this country are allready well armed.

Overheal · 01-05-2011 06:19PM

JohnathanM wrote: »

You've lost me here. How am I being hypocritical?

seeing nothing wrong with walking down the street with a knife in your hand, and yet not being allowed to do it yourself. And at the same time being critical of a gun. So you're pro knife anti gun or are you anti-weapon-pro-knife-walking?

Adamisconfused · 01-05-2011 06:21PM

Bosco boy wrote: »

That applied when it suited them. There were many exceptions tragically!

Correct. Several tragic murders of a Garda. However, I can think of a few more occasions where the Gardaí had their cars stolen or simply told to go away while the IRA and such made their escape. Not a perfect excuse for not arming them, but I was just wondering if anyone else heard the same stories about Gardaí around the border not wanting to be armed for that reason. As I said, might just be something said around where I grew up.

Overheal · 01-05-2011 06:24PM

JohnathanM wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the policeman knew him to be a drunk mentaller? From that, are you also saying that a man with mental problems reported as an inebriate deserves to die, for carrying a small knife? There were better ways of handling a situation like that.

That's not the situation. Have you looked into the incident?

If they knew the guys history they probably would have found him harmless. Instead it looks to the cop like he walked across a semi-delirious guy walking down the street with a knife, that when asked to drop it did not understand and so did not comply, based on what we know now from people who did know him.

In actual fact the cop didn't know him and had no way of determining he was harmless. Except to say the man was carrying the knife, probably not in a lucid state, and not complying with an order to drop his weapon.

JohnathanM · 01-05-2011 06:24PM

Overheal wrote: »

seeing nothing wrong with walking down the street with a knife in your hand, and yet not being allowed to do it yourself. And at the same time being critical of a gun. So you're pro knife anti gun or are you anti-weapon-pro-knife-walking?

Well, a short while back I was mooching around town and back to the car with a newly acquired axe slung over my shoulder. Would you have given me a second glance? In any case the 3" blade he carried was legal in Seattle, and Irish law is largely irrelevant in the USA. So, I don't think I'm being a hypocrite.

vampire of kilmainham · 01-05-2011 06:28PM

Ya couldent see anything in that vidio only the one streatch of street so it's not that easy to tell what happened there was gun fire but i dont think the guy was dead if ya listen to the police communaction on their handsets...

Uniformed Garda Armed

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