Uniformed Garda Armed

Gunnerkid

So with increasing rates of crimes where guns have been involved should uniformed Gaurds be armed in order to protect themselves and others?? or is it a bad idea that could lead to Garda enforcing the law more so with what is strapped to their belt.

Big Nasty

Yes

hondasam

No not all of them.

yoshytoshy

I'd rather more gards than guns ,a gun won't stop crime.

Biggins

Yes, IF they individually want that option.
There is some occasions when they would clearly have to be, otherwise there should be choice of some kind beyond that.

Its a tough question that still lingers on.

Spunge

I enjoy whittling on the street while not being shot, so no thanks.

dr gonzo

Tough call but with proper, consistant training like the netherlands theres no reason why they couldnt be. They would certainly be taken more seriously and be a much more formidable image in tackling serious street crime.

Then again i dont know if its really all that necessary, they shouldnt be arbitrarily issued weapons. Perhaps pepper spray is enough for the vast majority of them.

talla10

Not all Gardai should be armed but i do believe they should have non lethal weapons such as taser along with the baton and spray they carry.

dr gonzo

Biggins wrote: »

Yes, IF they individually want that option.
There is some occasions when they would clearly have to be, otherwise there should be choice of some kind beyond that.

Its a tough question that still lingers on.

Then again, are the guards that want guns really the ones that we want to have guns... if that makes sense?

I dont the kind of people who would go out of their way to ask for one is really the person i want to have one, there would have to be some sort of system by which the garda admin can determine which uniforms are at the most risk.

MagicMarker

By all means have specialized armed units, but every single Gardai? No. Not when there are alternatives such as tazers etc...

Gunnerkid

MagicMarker wrote: »

By all means have specialized armed units, but every single Gardai? No. Not when there are alternatives such as tazers etc...

however I would have to say that studies in the US have shown the police their are more prone to using their taser gun on a individual rather then unholstering their gun. Also apparently police studied in the US were more likely to excessively use force with a taser when there was no need for such a action

JohnathanM

Spunge wrote: »

I enjoy whittling on the street while not being shot, so no thanks.

Referring to the deaf guy shot from behind in Seattle? Horrible, that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjFsmTDWuQ

The problem with giving people guns, is that they aren't always going to use them responsibly. The situation in this country is nowhere near serious enough to warrant an all-armed police force.

Gunnerkid

JohnathanM wrote: »

Referring to the deaf guy shot from behind in Seattle? Horrible, that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjFsmTDWuQ

The problem with giving people guns, is that they aren't always going to use them responsibly. The situation in this country is nowhere near serious enough to warrant an all-armed police force.

why was he carrying a knife???

No way. While I'm sure there are plenty of sensible, honest gardai out there, I wouldn't trust them enough to give them guns. In fact, no matter what profession it is, I think it's ridiculous to take an entire profession and arm them. There's always going to be a few idiots in any bunch, in this case probably more than a few. Plus there are some who join the gardai for the power kick. I'd say if we armed them there'd be an influx of young lads who like the idea of hauling a firearm round with them.

There's also the argument that while we have a lot of knife crime, and some gun crime, if we arm our gardai, criminal organisations will start arming their people too. I'd rather knife crime than gun crime. It's a stepping stone, whereby criminal organisations will be more interested in guns, then your garden variety scumbag will want a gun, then the public will start wanting guns. I know it sounds a bit hysterical, but seriously, guns would become far more commonplace.

Also, mistakes happen. Arresting someone by mistake is one thing, shooting someone? No thanks.

JohnathanM

Gunnerkid wrote: »

why was he carrying a knife???

I know! Can you imagine having the audacity to hold a small knife and be seen clearly whittling a piece of wood? Who did he think he was, keeping himself to himself and posing absolutely no threat to anybody? What a f'er!

Spunge

JohnathanM wrote: »

Referring to the deaf guy shot from behind in Seattle? Horrible, that.

Whoa, he was deaf ?

Gunnerkid

JohnathanM wrote: »

I know! Can you imagine having the audacity to hold a small knife and be seen clearly whittling a piece of wood? Who did he think he was, keeping himself to himself and posing absolutely no threat to anybody? What a f'er!

obviously the police officers response was completely disgusting and he deserves to be arrested for it but I didn't see the piece of wood you say he was carving and I dont know the full story to the video

Biggins

Just out of curiosity (I don't know so I ask), are all British police armed?
...And if not, of those that are, how many innocent people have been killed proportion-wise in relation to numbers of population?
I know one life is too many but to think that Gardi will all just go on power trips might be pushing it a bit?
(Yes there WILL be a few of course, its unavoidable)

Thrill

Gunnerkid wrote: »

why was he carrying a knife???

The guy was a woodcarver. He was whittling on a piece of wood.

JohnathanM

Spunge wrote: »

Whoa, he was deaf ?

When I read around at the time I heard that he was deaf, which is why he he didn't turn around when the officer called him. Looking again, it seems that was the case in one ear:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/12/18/16603076.html

To be honest, I don't personally care if the fella was simply ignoring him. Not a reason to kill somebody.

hondasam

Biggins wrote: »

Just out of curiosity (I don't know so I ask), are all British police armed?
...And if not, of those that are, how many innocent people have been killed proportion-wise in relation to numbers of population?
I know one life is too many but to think that Gardi will all just go on power trips might be pushing it a bit?
(Yes there WILL be a few of course, its unavoidable)

No they are not armed.

Big Nasty

There's too many dirty scroates in this country with no respect or fear of the law.

Gunnerkid

Biggins wrote: »

Just out of curiosity (I don't know so I ask), are all British police armed?
...And if not, of those that are, how many innocent people have been killed proportion-wise in relation to numbers of population?
I know one life is too many but to think that Gardi will all just go on power trips might be pushing it a bit?
(Yes there WILL be a few of course, its unavoidable)

Apparently a lot of countries that allow their police force to be armed have less gun violations with officers then the USA, Not all of the UK police force is armed, Northern Ireland is the only exception in terms of arming regular uniformed police.

LizT

I can see pros and cons. Obviously the system could be open to abuse and would no doubt result in unnecessary deaths.

But I was watching crimecall the other night and there was one lone garda sent to investigate suspicious activity at a post office (which was being robbed at the time). As far as I remember, the raiders were armed and he approached the house with just his baton. There was nothing to stop them blowing his head off, which thank god they didn't do.

It's the same with a lot of situations where the number of civilians (such as in riot, protests that go wrong etc.) far outnumber the gardai. They look a bit stupid standing there with just a baton to protect themselves.

Dangerous Man

At present - absolutely not. Our police force is badly run, badly trained, and unmotivated to do their job. There's no way in hell I'd give the average Irish police officer a pistol. Remember the May Day 'Reclaim the streets' protest in Dublin a few years ago? Our brave police force indiscriminately cracking skulls on Dame street. A number of tourists, who were innocent bystanders were beaten by our professional police service. How many times have we seen cases of prisoners, particularly young, troubled prisoners, mysteriously dying in custody?

We have a police force that is great at going after the little guy, but utterly useless when it comes to detecting actual crime; the fact that we have virtual 'no go' areas in our society is a testament to the ineffectiveness of our police force.

Arming these guys is not a viable option. The Gardai should be stood down and a modern police force put in its place.

Micky Dolenz

We can hardy afford proper communication devices, never mind guns.

tayto lover

I would not like to see Gardai carrying guns while in uniform. There should be specialist units for this as in other countries.

ART6

The problem, as I see it, is that if Gardai were to be armed, then I assume all of them would be whether or not they were psychologically suitable to carry lethal weapons. I would guess we have all heard of Gardai who were officious, quick tempered, in a bad humour or whatever (much like the rest of us humans). Would we want some of them waving such weapons around?

Then, how would they all be trained? A pistol in untrained hands is almost a weapon of mass destruction. What happens if a Garda who couldn't hit a barn from the inside was given a weapon and killed a bystander? The press would have a field day and recriminations would become hysterical. Without a weapon a Garda has to try to defuse a situation rather than resolving it by drawing a gun.

In countries like the USA the police are armed, and they don't have that good a record either even though they are trained to a high degree and have firing ranges at which they have to polish their skill. Could we afford that?

The Gardai have a dangerous job, and whatever we individually feel about them when they pull us for exceeding a speed limit all us citizens would be at very great risk without them. Therefore, instead of copping out and saying "Let's arm them" we should be supporting them. We should be demanding that if any criminal resorts to a lethal weapon to further his crime, then he will be locked away for a very long period until he is no longer capable of being a threat to society. If anyone injures a Garda then he should spend a long jail term without any option of remission. If he kills a Garda then he should only leave prison horizontally in a box.

Oh I know our economy is screwed and we can no longer afford even ministerial limos, but some things are fundamental to civilised societies. Prisons for the wrong-doers to keep them from doing it again are as essential as water and electricity supplies.

So no. I don't support arming the AGS

Gunnerkid

Dangerous Man wrote: »

At present - absolutely not. Our police force is badly run, badly trained, and unmotivated to do their job. There's no way in hell I'd give the average Irish police officer a pistol. Remember the May Day 'Reclaim the streets' protest in Dublin a few years ago? Our brave police force indiscriminately cracking skulls on Dame street. A number of tourists, who were innocent bystanders were beaten by our professional police service. How many times have we seen cases of prisoners, particularly young, troubled prisoners, mysteriously dying in custody?

We have a police force that is great at going after the little guy, but utterly useless when it comes to detecting actual crime; the fact that we have virtual 'no go' areas in our society is a testament to the ineffectiveness of our police force.

Arming these guys is not a viable option. The Gardai should be stood down and a modern police force put in its place.

would definitely have to agree with you on all your points, there should also be some form of sociological test established to see which potential recruits are safe to have as officers and which ones are not

Thrill

lizt wrote: »

But I was watching crimecall the other night and there was one lone garda sent to investigate suspicious activity at a post office (which was being robbed at the time). As far as I remember, the raiders were armed and he approached the house with just his baton. There was nothing to stop them blowing his head off, which thank god they didn't do.

The other side of the coin is that if the Garda was armed then they probably would have blown his head off.

yoshytoshy

tayto lover wrote: »

I would not like to see Gardai carrying guns while in uniform. There should be specialist units for this as in other countries.

There is already though surely ? ,I've often seen lads wearing red vests and machine guns across their chests out near blanchardstown.

investment

JohnathanM wrote: »

When I read around at the time I heard that he was deaf, which is why he he didn't turn around when the officer called him. Looking again, it seems that was the case in one ear:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/12/18/16603076.html

To be honest, I don't personally care if the fella was simply ignoring him. Not a reason to kill somebody.

Typical ****ing american's...There was no need for that level of force, considering the officer was caring a baton and a taser gun too:rolleyes:

dr gonzo

hondasam wrote: »

No they are not armed.

I think they have weapons in the patrol cars though i.e they have access if needed.

Dangerous Man wrote: »

We have a police force that is great at going after the little guy, but utterly useless when it comes to detecting actual crime; the fact that we have virtual 'no go' areas in our society is a testament to the ineffectiveness of our police force.

Arming these guys is not a viable option. The Gardai should be stood down and a modern police force put in its place.

Not to sound naive here but is that not what the guns are for? If we have no go areas due to the fact that police are unable to operate in these areas for fear of being attacked themselves maybe a weapon is exactly what they need.

In saying that the Gardai probably are terrible.

Einhard

lizt wrote: »

But I was watching crimecall the other night and there was one lone garda sent to investigate suspicious activity at a post office (which was being robbed at the time). As far as I remember, the raiders were armed and he approached the house with just his baton. There was nothing to stop them blowing his head off, which thank god they didn't do.

The criminals in this instance were understandably trying to get away. Knowing that the cop was unarmed, they knew they could achieve this by just beating him into submission. However, had he a gun, it is far more likely that they would have used there own weapons to escape. If we arm the police, the criminals will respond in kind, and it could well result in more police being killed or seriously injured.

I'd understand if the police were regularly being shot at, but that doesn't seem to be a problem in this country. If it's not broke, why (attempt to) fix it?

It's the same with a lot of situations where the number of civilians (such as in riot, protests that go wrong etc.) far outnumber the gardai. They look a bit stupid standing there with just a baton to protect themselves.

Things can quickly get out of control in a such situations, and people act impuslively and without thinking. I'd rather not have the police fully armed in crowd control situations. It only needs a few things to go wrong, and one might have a massacre.

Dangerous Man

dr gonzo wrote: »

I think they have weapons in the patrol cars though i.e they have access if needed.



Not to sound naive here but is that not what the guns are for? If we have no go areas due to the fact that police are unable to operate in these areas for fear of being attacked themselves maybe a weapon is exactly what they need.

In saying that the Gardai probably are terrible.

That's a good point but the problems are that these so-called 'no go' areas have (a) become 'no go' areas; they haven't always been like that; (b) Gardai are not supposed to be afraid of being attacked - they are supposed to be trained and able to defend others / themselves; (c) had these areas been properly policed with visible deterrents / officers on the beat doing their jobs - there wouldn't be 'no go' areas. It's inaction on the part of our police that allows such things to happen.

Dangerous Man

investment wrote: »

Typical ****ing american's...There was no need for that level of force, considering the officer was caring a baton and a taser gun too:rolleyes:

They were Canadian.

Edit: Correct, I was thinking of the man tazed to death by cops on the Canadian west coast last year. Apologies!

Mutz

Dangerous Man wrote: »

At present - absolutely not. Our police force is badly run, badly trained, and unmotivated to do their job. There's no way in hell I'd give the average Irish police officer a pistol. Remember the May Day 'Reclaim the streets' protest in Dublin a few years ago? Our brave police force indiscriminately cracking skulls on Dame street. A number of tourists, who were innocent bystanders were beaten by our professional police service. How many times have we seen cases of prisoners, particularly young, troubled prisoners, mysteriously dying in custody?

We have a police force that is great at going after the little guy, but utterly useless when it comes to detecting actual crime; the fact that we have virtual 'no go' areas in our society is a testament to the ineffectiveness of our police force.

Arming these guys is not a viable option. The Gardai should be stood down and a modern police force put in its place.

And let the provos establish themselves as the police. I 100% agree with your point. :rolleyes:

Its obvious what your background is from your opinion.

Bosco boy

Dangerous Man wrote: »

At present - absolutely not. Our police force is badly run, badly trained, and unmotivated to do their job. There's no way in hell I'd give the average Irish police officer a pistol. Remember the May Day 'Reclaim the streets' protest in Dublin a few years ago? Our brave police force indiscriminately cracking skulls on Dame street. A number of tourists, who were innocent bystanders were beaten by our professional police service. How many times have we seen cases of prisoners, particularly young, troubled prisoners, mysteriously dying in custody?

We have a police force that is great at going after the little guy, but utterly useless when it comes to detecting actual crime; the fact that we have virtual 'no go' areas in our society is a testament to the ineffectiveness of our police force.

Arming these guys is not a viable option. The Gardai should be stood down and a modern police force put in its place.

That's a rather large brush you have there, what a load of bitter sh1te

JohnathanM

Dangerous Man wrote: »

They were Canadian.

It was the Seattle police, so US. I think the reason it was so reported in Canada was because that was where the victim was from.

Gunnerkid

Dangerous Man wrote: »

They were Canadian.

the person killed was Canadian but he was gunned down by police in Seattle which is in the USA

Captain Chaos

true-or-false wrote: »

In fact, no matter what profession it is, I think it's ridiculous to take an entire profession and arm them. There's always going to be a few idiots in any bunch, in this case probably more than a few.

Yeah, who thought it was good idea to arm the Defence Forces anyway.

Biggins

Gunnerkid wrote: »

Apparently a lot of countries that allow their police force to be armed have less gun violations with officers then the USA, Not all of the UK police force is armed, Northern Ireland is the only exception in terms of arming regular uniformed police.

Yes, there are always a few that (too) quickly rush to portray the USA cases as the only way armed police are going to behave.
They conveniently skip over many other countries that are operating better!
Only an idiot would fall for that ill-balanced spin.

Police all over are normally assessed mentally to see if they would be able to cope with gun carrying and of course some less possibly suitable will slip through the paperwork and tests. Such is life - but thats why there will be more layers of safeguards and regulations that kick into play, if only to lessen the odds of unfortunate events.

I think in this case regarding guns, there is no solid "yes" or "no" but that we have to find the best way in order to work as best we can within the middle gray area.

Manic Moran

investment wrote: »

Typical ****ing american's...There was no need for that level of force, considering the officer was caring a baton and a taser gun too:rolleyes:

For the record, the final result on that one was that the cop violated policy by getting himself into a position that he needed to shoot, but the shoot itself was not unwarranted. What someone is doing ten seconds before he was shot does not mean that ten seconds later he could pose sufficient threat to warrant it.

There is a misconception that cops in the US are highly trained in firearm use. In actuality, this is not the case except for a few who just happen to be firearm enthusiasts and practice on their own time. To most cops, the firearm is just another tool on their belt which they need to carry out their job. They shoot their annual qualification, and don't touch it again. Budget issues trend to prevent more range time, for example if they had to spend one day a month at the range, that means you need 3% more officers to keep the same coverage on the street. Given that the majority of cops never shoot in their entire career, it's just a matter of cost/benefit to the people paying the bills.

Bear in mind, of course, that when making comparisons, police in the US have to have a slightly different mindset to those of most nations. I won't go as far as to say that killing cops is considered ' fair game' but it does seem to be more common an attitude in the criminal classes. Note that every country on mainland Europe arms police routinely without much trouble.

Personally, I don't understand the reluctance to give the police every tool they may require. They are the people that society has entrusted with the safety of its people and the smooth, orderly running of society. We allow then to do many unique and, if poorly done, dangerous things such as driving in a manner which would have a private citizen done in for being a danger to others. Yet they are not trusted with a firearm? But we'll let Private Snuffy of the Army carry an assault rifle outside the bank. Makes no rational sense to me, it seems more a matter of subjective perception.

NTM

Voodoomelon

I'm not sure how I'd feel arming every single Garda with a pistol. The amount of armed crimes being committed is definitely on the rise and armed response units are thinly spread on the ground.

Most people don't know that most detectives already carry pistols, but they have a choice whether they want to or not. I would not have too many fears about regular Gardaí carrying, if a suitable training regime was introduced. My only fear would be how armed Gardaí would handle the drunken yobish behaviour that is characteristic of Irish late-night culture.

I think the benefits of an armed force would out-weigh the negatives. People say that the criminals retaliate like for like to match the firepower of the police, this is already happening. Crime has evolved in this country like many others; Post Offices were once robbed with a balaclava and a sawn-off shotgun, now they're robbed with semi-automatic handguns and sub-machineguns. Drug gangs are now heavily armed and more and more firearms are coming in with every drug shipment. There's also the increased threat from terrorists in this country.

My biggest problem with the Gardaí is their lack of respect. I respect them to an extent, I treat them as i would any other human being, but so many people wouldn't give it a second thought to answer back or spit in their face. To me, a Garda walking down the street with a florescent jacket, a stab vest and a belt with a set of handcuffs looks bad, it infers that they have no powers physically over your average civilian. You want an enforcer of the law to command respect, to assert authority with their very presence. Most people just see them as normal people with a Garda jacket.

Arming a member of a police force gives them respect. No, I do not want a gun stuck in my face more than anyone else, but then again I would never get myself in a situation where this would happen. Would this send some Gardaí on a power trip? Probably, it happens in every country. Same goes for accidental shootings. But pistols are a valuable tool in law enforcement, they are used a last resort and I believe would be benefical to our police force.

Seloth

As some one said already more guards on the street rather than armed guards would be better.

Having Tazers and Pepper spray as well though,but only using them if the situation truly justifies it such as a conflict where a person resists and wont calm down.

slavetothegrind

even if you took the garda of the year, a model officer and cloned him/her we would still be in the **** as long as we have our laws, judiciary and prison system as it stands.

Eric Cartman

if the gards all get guns the criminals will all upgrade from knives etc to guns , and if that happens it better be legal for me to have a gun

MagicSean

Biggins wrote: »

Yes, IF they individually want that option.
There is some occasions when they would clearly have to be, otherwise there should be choice of some kind beyond that.

Its a tough question that still lingers on.

This would not work. Once one has a gun then both would be targets.

Voodoomelon

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if the gards all get guns the criminals will all upgrade from knives etc to guns , and if that happens it better be legal for me to have a gun

They're already trying to silently clamp down on firearm ownership, you can be sure if the Gardaí became an armed force, all but the smallest of pea-shooters would be all a civilian could get.

Biggins

k_mac wrote: »

This would not work. Once one has a gun then both would be targets.

What do you mean by "both"

talla10

Einhard wrote: »

The criminals in this instance were understandably trying to get away. Knowing that the cop was unarmed, they knew they could achieve this by just beating him into submission. However, had he a gun, it is far more likely that they would have used there own weapons to escape. If we arm the police, the criminals will respond in kind, and it could well result in more police being killed or seriously injured.
.

Ah yeah should we join in with the criminals and 'just' beat the Gardai when they investigate and attempt to apprehend dangerous criminals carrying out sickening crimes??