Uniformed Garda Armed

investment · 01-05-2011 04:56PM

JohnathanM wrote: »

When I read around at the time I heard that he was deaf, which is why he he didn't turn around when the officer called him. Looking again, it seems that was the case in one ear:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/12/18/16603076.html

To be honest, I don't personally care if the fella was simply ignoring him. Not a reason to kill somebody.

Typical ****ing american's...There was no need for that level of force, considering the officer was caring a baton and a taser gun too:rolleyes:

dr gonzo · 01-05-2011 04:58PM

hondasam wrote: »

No they are not armed.

I think they have weapons in the patrol cars though i.e they have access if needed.

Dangerous Man wrote: »

We have a police force that is great at going after the little guy, but utterly useless when it comes to detecting actual crime; the fact that we have virtual 'no go' areas in our society is a testament to the ineffectiveness of our police force.

Arming these guys is not a viable option. The Gardai should be stood down and a modern police force put in its place.

Not to sound naive here but is that not what the guns are for? If we have no go areas due to the fact that police are unable to operate in these areas for fear of being attacked themselves maybe a weapon is exactly what they need.

In saying that the Gardai probably are terrible.

Einhard · 01-05-2011 05:06PM

lizt wrote: »

But I was watching crimecall the other night and there was one lone garda sent to investigate suspicious activity at a post office (which was being robbed at the time). As far as I remember, the raiders were armed and he approached the house with just his baton. There was nothing to stop them blowing his head off, which thank god they didn't do.

The criminals in this instance were understandably trying to get away. Knowing that the cop was unarmed, they knew they could achieve this by just beating him into submission. However, had he a gun, it is far more likely that they would have used there own weapons to escape. If we arm the police, the criminals will respond in kind, and it could well result in more police being killed or seriously injured.

I'd understand if the police were regularly being shot at, but that doesn't seem to be a problem in this country. If it's not broke, why (attempt to) fix it?

It's the same with a lot of situations where the number of civilians (such as in riot, protests that go wrong etc.) far outnumber the gardai. They look a bit stupid standing there with just a baton to protect themselves.

Things can quickly get out of control in a such situations, and people act impuslively and without thinking. I'd rather not have the police fully armed in crowd control situations. It only needs a few things to go wrong, and one might have a massacre.

Dangerous Man · 01-05-2011 05:10PM

dr gonzo wrote: »

I think they have weapons in the patrol cars though i.e they have access if needed.

Not to sound naive here but is that not what the guns are for? If we have no go areas due to the fact that police are unable to operate in these areas for fear of being attacked themselves maybe a weapon is exactly what they need.

In saying that the Gardai probably are terrible.

That's a good point but the problems are that these so-called 'no go' areas have (a) become 'no go' areas; they haven't always been like that; (b) Gardai are not supposed to be afraid of being attacked - they are supposed to be trained and able to defend others / themselves; (c) had these areas been properly policed with visible deterrents / officers on the beat doing their jobs - there wouldn't be 'no go' areas. It's inaction on the part of our police that allows such things to happen.

Dangerous Man · 01-05-2011 05:11PM

investment wrote: »

Typical ****ing american's...There was no need for that level of force, considering the officer was caring a baton and a taser gun too:rolleyes:

They were Canadian.

Edit: Correct, I was thinking of the man tazed to death by cops on the Canadian west coast last year. Apologies!

Mutz · 01-05-2011 05:14PM

Dangerous Man wrote: »

At present - absolutely not. Our police force is badly run, badly trained, and unmotivated to do their job. There's no way in hell I'd give the average Irish police officer a pistol. Remember the May Day 'Reclaim the streets' protest in Dublin a few years ago? Our brave police force indiscriminately cracking skulls on Dame street. A number of tourists, who were innocent bystanders were beaten by our professional police service. How many times have we seen cases of prisoners, particularly young, troubled prisoners, mysteriously dying in custody?

We have a police force that is great at going after the little guy, but utterly useless when it comes to detecting actual crime; the fact that we have virtual 'no go' areas in our society is a testament to the ineffectiveness of our police force.

Arming these guys is not a viable option. The Gardai should be stood down and a modern police force put in its place.

And let the provos establish themselves as the police. I 100% agree with your point. :rolleyes:

Its obvious what your background is from your opinion.

Bosco boy · 01-05-2011 05:16PM

Dangerous Man wrote: »

At present - absolutely not. Our police force is badly run, badly trained, and unmotivated to do their job. There's no way in hell I'd give the average Irish police officer a pistol. Remember the May Day 'Reclaim the streets' protest in Dublin a few years ago? Our brave police force indiscriminately cracking skulls on Dame street. A number of tourists, who were innocent bystanders were beaten by our professional police service. How many times have we seen cases of prisoners, particularly young, troubled prisoners, mysteriously dying in custody?

We have a police force that is great at going after the little guy, but utterly useless when it comes to detecting actual crime; the fact that we have virtual 'no go' areas in our society is a testament to the ineffectiveness of our police force.

Arming these guys is not a viable option. The Gardai should be stood down and a modern police force put in its place.

That's a rather large brush you have there, what a load of bitter sh1te

JohnathanM · 01-05-2011 05:18PM

Dangerous Man wrote: »

They were Canadian.

It was the Seattle police, so US. I think the reason it was so reported in Canada was because that was where the victim was from.

Gunnerkid · 01-05-2011 05:18PM

Dangerous Man wrote: »

They were Canadian.

the person killed was Canadian but he was gunned down by police in Seattle which is in the USA

Captain Chaos · 01-05-2011 05:23PM

true-or-false wrote: »

In fact, no matter what profession it is, I think it's ridiculous to take an entire profession and arm them. There's always going to be a few idiots in any bunch, in this case probably more than a few.

Yeah, who thought it was good idea to arm the Defence Forces anyway.

Biggins · 01-05-2011 05:26PM

Gunnerkid wrote: »

Apparently a lot of countries that allow their police force to be armed have less gun violations with officers then the USA, Not all of the UK police force is armed, Northern Ireland is the only exception in terms of arming regular uniformed police.

Yes, there are always a few that (too) quickly rush to portray the USA cases as the only way armed police are going to behave.
They conveniently skip over many other countries that are operating better!
Only an idiot would fall for that ill-balanced spin.

Police all over are normally assessed mentally to see if they would be able to cope with gun carrying and of course some less possibly suitable will slip through the paperwork and tests. Such is life - but thats why there will be more layers of safeguards and regulations that kick into play, if only to lessen the odds of unfortunate events.

I think in this case regarding guns, there is no solid "yes" or "no" but that we have to find the best way in order to work as best we can within the middle gray area.

Manic Moran · 01-05-2011 05:26PM

investment wrote: »

Typical ****ing american's...There was no need for that level of force, considering the officer was caring a baton and a taser gun too:rolleyes:

For the record, the final result on that one was that the cop violated policy by getting himself into a position that he needed to shoot, but the shoot itself was not unwarranted. What someone is doing ten seconds before he was shot does not mean that ten seconds later he could pose sufficient threat to warrant it.

There is a misconception that cops in the US are highly trained in firearm use. In actuality, this is not the case except for a few who just happen to be firearm enthusiasts and practice on their own time. To most cops, the firearm is just another tool on their belt which they need to carry out their job. They shoot their annual qualification, and don't touch it again. Budget issues trend to prevent more range time, for example if they had to spend one day a month at the range, that means you need 3% more officers to keep the same coverage on the street. Given that the majority of cops never shoot in their entire career, it's just a matter of cost/benefit to the people paying the bills.

Bear in mind, of course, that when making comparisons, police in the US have to have a slightly different mindset to those of most nations. I won't go as far as to say that killing cops is considered ' fair game' but it does seem to be more common an attitude in the criminal classes. Note that every country on mainland Europe arms police routinely without much trouble.

Personally, I don't understand the reluctance to give the police every tool they may require. They are the people that society has entrusted with the safety of its people and the smooth, orderly running of society. We allow then to do many unique and, if poorly done, dangerous things such as driving in a manner which would have a private citizen done in for being a danger to others. Yet they are not trusted with a firearm? But we'll let Private Snuffy of the Army carry an assault rifle outside the bank. Makes no rational sense to me, it seems more a matter of subjective perception.

NTM

Voodoomelon · 01-05-2011 05:27PM

I'm not sure how I'd feel arming every single Garda with a pistol. The amount of armed crimes being committed is definitely on the rise and armed response units are thinly spread on the ground.

Most people don't know that most detectives already carry pistols, but they have a choice whether they want to or not. I would not have too many fears about regular Gardaí carrying, if a suitable training regime was introduced. My only fear would be how armed Gardaí would handle the drunken yobish behaviour that is characteristic of Irish late-night culture.

I think the benefits of an armed force would out-weigh the negatives. People say that the criminals retaliate like for like to match the firepower of the police, this is already happening. Crime has evolved in this country like many others; Post Offices were once robbed with a balaclava and a sawn-off shotgun, now they're robbed with semi-automatic handguns and sub-machineguns. Drug gangs are now heavily armed and more and more firearms are coming in with every drug shipment. There's also the increased threat from terrorists in this country.

My biggest problem with the Gardaí is their lack of respect. I respect them to an extent, I treat them as i would any other human being, but so many people wouldn't give it a second thought to answer back or spit in their face. To me, a Garda walking down the street with a florescent jacket, a stab vest and a belt with a set of handcuffs looks bad, it infers that they have no powers physically over your average civilian. You want an enforcer of the law to command respect, to assert authority with their very presence. Most people just see them as normal people with a Garda jacket.

Arming a member of a police force gives them respect. No, I do not want a gun stuck in my face more than anyone else, but then again I would never get myself in a situation where this would happen. Would this send some Gardaí on a power trip? Probably, it happens in every country. Same goes for accidental shootings. But pistols are a valuable tool in law enforcement, they are used a last resort and I believe would be benefical to our police force.

Seloth · 01-05-2011 05:32PM

As some one said already more guards on the street rather than armed guards would be better.

Having Tazers and Pepper spray as well though,but only using them if the situation truly justifies it such as a conflict where a person resists and wont calm down.

slavetothegrind · 01-05-2011 05:33PM

even if you took the garda of the year, a model officer and cloned him/her we would still be in the **** as long as we have our laws, judiciary and prison system as it stands.

Eric Cartman · 01-05-2011 05:33PM

if the gards all get guns the criminals will all upgrade from knives etc to guns , and if that happens it better be legal for me to have a gun

MagicSean · 01-05-2011 05:34PM

Biggins wrote: »

Yes, IF they individually want that option.
There is some occasions when they would clearly have to be, otherwise there should be choice of some kind beyond that.

Its a tough question that still lingers on.

This would not work. Once one has a gun then both would be targets.

Voodoomelon · 01-05-2011 05:36PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if the gards all get guns the criminals will all upgrade from knives etc to guns , and if that happens it better be legal for me to have a gun

They're already trying to silently clamp down on firearm ownership, you can be sure if the Gardaí became an armed force, all but the smallest of pea-shooters would be all a civilian could get.

Biggins · 01-05-2011 05:36PM

k_mac wrote: »

This would not work. Once one has a gun then both would be targets.

What do you mean by "both"

talla10 · 01-05-2011 05:36PM

Einhard wrote: »

The criminals in this instance were understandably trying to get away. Knowing that the cop was unarmed, they knew they could achieve this by just beating him into submission. However, had he a gun, it is far more likely that they would have used there own weapons to escape. If we arm the police, the criminals will respond in kind, and it could well result in more police being killed or seriously injured.
.

Ah yeah should we join in with the criminals and 'just' beat the Gardai when they investigate and attempt to apprehend dangerous criminals carrying out sickening crimes??

Einhard · 01-05-2011 05:38PM

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Arming a member of a police force gives them respect.

No it doesn't. Respect is earned, by the conduct of the force in general, and by individual officers. It doesn't appear suddenly because someone has a gun. Indeed, when I'm abroad, I often feel slightly uncomfortable when I see weapons hanging from the hips of the police. I think arming all police could make them slightly less accessible to the general public, and this would be a bad thing IMO.

Einhard · 01-05-2011 05:39PM

talla10 wrote: »

Ah yeah should we join in with the criminals and 'just' beat the Gardai when they investigate and attempt to apprehend dangerous criminals carrying out sickening crimes??

What on earth are you talking about?

Dangerous Man · 01-05-2011 05:40PM

Mutz wrote: »

And let the provos establish themselves as the police. I 100% agree with your point. :rolleyes:

Its obvious what your background is from your opinion.

I'm not even going to argue against this. Grow up.

Thrill · 01-05-2011 05:41PM

Biggins wrote: »

What do you mean by "both"

I'm presuming both armed and unarmed Garda. An armed thug isn't going to stop and check which one is or is not armed.

MagicSean · 01-05-2011 05:42PM

Biggins wrote: »

What do you mean by "both"

If two Gardaí are in a car and one is armed. Lets say they both get out. One draws their firearm and the other has none. Both will be shot at.

Big Nasty · 01-05-2011 05:43PM

Einhard wrote: »

No it doesn't. Respect is earned, by the conduct of the force in general, and by individual officers. It doesn't appear suddenly because someone has a gun. Indeed, when I'm abroad, I often feel slightly uncomfortable when I see weapons hanging from the hips of the police. I think arming all police could make them slightly less accessible to the general public, and this would be a bad thing IMO.

I get what you're saying but it's not as simple as that. When I was a lad I was scared sh1tless of the boys in blue, because I thought I should be. In fact I would have felt the same about most of my elders. Young lads now couldn't give to fcuks and are more than happy to abuse, spit in the face of Gardai. They wouldn't be as quick to do it if the fuzz were packing.

IMO arming all Gardai would do an awful lot to combat the scumbag fraternity in every town in this country.

yoshytoshy · 01-05-2011 05:45PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

IMO arming all Gardai would do an awful lot to combat the scumbag fraternity in every town in this country.

But what would it do to the relationship of people who currently find the gardai approachable.

Biggins · 01-05-2011 05:45PM

k_mac wrote: »

If two Gardaí are in a car and one is armed. Lets say they both get out. One draws their firearm and the other has none. Both will be shot at.

True but then if the criminal has a gun ANYWAY, he's either going to use it or not to improve his getaway chances.
If thats the case, Gardi I feel should stand an equal chance of defending themselves and their own lives, never mind fighting back in advancing.

My name is URL · 01-05-2011 05:47PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

IMO arming all Gardai would do an awful lot to combat the scumbag fraternity in every town in this country.

In what way? There already are armed units which can respond rapidly when they are required. The Gardai would only be warranted to use their weapons in specific scenarios anyway, and in those scenarios the armed units are dispatched.

JohnathanM · 01-05-2011 05:48PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Young lads now couldn't give to fcuks and are more than happy to abuse, spit in the face of Gardai. They wouldn't be as quick to do it if the fuzz were packing.

I don't think guns will fix this - you can't have police just drawing a gun to make a point, as any response they give needs to be proportionate. The problem there seems to have more to do with the fact that the judicial system will do nothing. How often do you hear people complaining about the little scrote with a string of convictions back on the streets, whilst the guy who won't pay his TV licence might well end up doing time? That kind of problem needs to be fixed from the top-down, not bottom-up.

Uniformed Garda Armed

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