Is it right to have a national DNA database to tackle crime?

Dave! · 01-05-2011 11:48am #1

I'll just quote the article from thejournal.ie:

IT HAS BEEN reported today that a DNA database is to be set up to tackle crime in Ireland.

The Irish Daily Mail reports that that inmates convicted of a serious offence will be required to co-operate along with those arrested for crimes that carry a sentence of five years or more.

Those arrested for crimes punishable with a jail term of five years or more will provide samples on the proviso that they be destroyed within a few years.

Civil liberties groups have raised concerns about a possible breach of human rights.

The move has been previously mooted by minister for justice Alan Shatter who said that legislation to create a national DNA database was one of his top legislative priorities.

But is it right to establish such a database in Ireland?

weldoninhio · 01-05-2011 11:51am

I'd go even further and have it so that anyone that is arrested has their DNA taken and held on file. If you've nothing to hide what's the problem??

Einhard · 01-05-2011 11:51am

Yes, yes it is.

What reasons are there for objection?

MagicMarker · 01-05-2011 11:52am

You mean there isn't already?! :eek:

Pauleta · 01-05-2011 11:52am

Im fully supportive of this and would voluntarily give my finger prints. Saying that, you can get convicted of any crime but its not likely you would go to prison for too long :rolleyes:

Ickle Magoo · 01-05-2011 11:53am

As long as DNA is not the only evidence used to convict with, I don't see why anyone bar the criminals would or should have an issue with it.

Einhard · 01-05-2011 11:53am

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'd go even further and have it so that anyone that is arrested has their DNA taken and held on file. If you've nothing to hide what's the problem??

Well hold on now, the "if you have nothing to hide...." scenarioo can be used to justify any intrusion into one's privacy by the state. Just because someone has been arrested, doesn't make them guilty of a crime.

unknownlegend · 01-05-2011 11:55am

Are people naive enough to think it'll only be used for this purpose?

In principle it's got merit but it'd never be ethically correct.

Daegerty · 01-05-2011 11:57am

No. Huge invasion of privacy. Very big brother / minority report like.

MagicMarker · 01-05-2011 11:58am

unknownlegend wrote: »

Are people naive enough to think it'll only be used for this purpose?

In principle it's got merit but it'd never be ethically correct.

What other purpose would it be used for?

MagicSean · 01-05-2011 12:01pm

Definitely. All persons given a custodial sentence should have their DNA stored for future comparison.

amacachi · 01-05-2011 12:01pm

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

As long as DNA is not the only evidence used to convict with, I don't see why anyone bar the criminals would or should have an issue with it.

If I believed that that was at all possible I'd fully support it. Unfortunately I don't believe it.

Bosco boy · 01-05-2011 12:01pm

Daegerty wrote: »

No. Huge invasion of privacy. Very big brother / minority report like.

Law biding people have nothing to fear, why protect criminals and perverts?

Daegerty · 01-05-2011 12:03pm

Those arrested for crimes punishable with a jail term of five years or more will provide samples on the proviso that they be destroyed within a few years.

Why should you have to give a sample just for being arrested. Anyone can get arrested and not have done anything wrong

Destroyed within a few years? The government destroys nothing. If anything it will get moved to the repository for 'destroyed' DNA samples and brought back again if ever needed

Ickle Magoo · 01-05-2011 12:03pm

amacachi wrote: »

If I believed that that was at all possible I'd fully support it. Unfortunately I don't believe it.

You don't believe that it's possible to set up a DNA register and have a pre-requisite that there must be accompanying evidence to procure a warrant for arrest, not just a DNA match? Really? Seems pretty straight-forward to me...

MagicSean · 01-05-2011 12:04pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

What other purpose would it be used for?

Some states in The US use DNA to decide on social welfare claims. If you are claiming social welfare allowance your DNA is compared to your child to ensure you are the real mother. It could go even further and identify the father if he is on the system. Imagine going down to the welfare office to collect your single parents allowance to be told "Sorry we've found the guy you slept with all that time ago. He's in Mountjoy doing 10 years. No social for you." Any database would have to be overseen by an independent body.

lugha · 01-05-2011 12:04pm

Why object to this but not say to a fingerprint database or the extensive use of security cameras or the like?

Biggins · 01-05-2011 12:05pm

Dave! wrote: »

Is it right to have a national DNA database to tackle crime?

Yes.

MagicMarker · 01-05-2011 12:07pm

k_mac wrote: »

Some states in The US use DNA to decide on social welfare claims. If you are claiming social welfare allowance your DNA is compared to your child to ensure you are the real mother. It could go even further and identify the father if he is on the system. Imagine going down to the welfare office to collect your single parents allowance to be told "Sorry we've found the guy you slept with all that time ago. He's in Mountjoy doing 10 years. No social for you." Any database would have to be overseen by an independent body.

How would they compare your DNA to your child when your child hasn't given a DNA sample, and how would identify the father when the child hasn't given a DNA sample?

Sunnyisland · 01-05-2011 12:07pm

Any body convicted of serious crime & sentenced yes.

MagicSean · 01-05-2011 12:08pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

How would they compare your DNA to your child when your child hasn't given a DNA sample, and how would identify the father when the child hasn't given a DNA sample?

They take the DNA of the mother and child to confirm that they are in fact mother and child. You don't get welfare payments unless you submit to the test.

unknownlegend · 01-05-2011 12:09pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

What other purpose would it be used for?

To name a few;
Insurance company gold mine
Genetic profiling
Employers, schools, adoption agency selection processes
Selection for visas for other countries/border patrol (see biometric chips which are being considered)
Genetic/hereditary disease detection
Mental health markers adding you to a watch list of 'unstable' people
Various minorities who would love to get a hold of this info.
down the line consider cloning, designer babies, and a two tiered society (super dna vs ordinary dna)
Etc etc etc.

This is a country where the implementation of an evoting system was an unmitigated disaster, does that inspire confidence for them to hold and protect your dna pattern?

Edit: again in principle I think it could be good, but it isn't a matter of just lashing ahead with in an ad hoc manner.

MagicMarker · 01-05-2011 12:12pm

k_mac wrote: »

They take the DNA of the mother and child to confirm that they are in fact mother and child. You don't get welfare payments unless you submit to the test.

Err... not in Ireland. So what has that got to with what we're talking about?

MagicMarker · 01-05-2011 12:14pm

unknownlegend wrote: »

To name a few;
Insurance company gold mine
Genetic profiling
Employers, schools, adoption agency selection processes
Selection for visas for other countries/border patrol (see biometric chips which are being considered)
Genetic/hereditary disease detection
Mental health markers adding you to a watch list of 'unstable' people
Various minorities who would love to get a hold of this info.
down the line consider cloning, designer babies, and a two tiered society (super dna vs ordinary dna)
Etc etc etc.

This is a country where the implementation of an evoting system was an unmitigated disaster, does that inspire confidence for them to hold and protect your dna pattern?

Edit: again in principle I think it could be good, but it isn't a matter of just lashing ahead with in an ad hoc manner.

You must be mistaking this for the conspiracy theory's forum.

Dave! · 01-05-2011 12:14pm

Biggins wrote: »

Yes.

Get off the fence!

MagicSean · 01-05-2011 12:14pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Err... not in Ireland. So what has that got to with what we're talking about?

Someone asked what else a DNA database could be used for and I answered.

On scanning back it appears it was actually you that asked what else a DNA database could be used for. Why ask if you didn't want an answer?

unknownlegend · 01-05-2011 12:16pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

You must be mistaking this for the conspiracy theory's forum.

Eh, no. Just responding to your question? Thanks for that though:rolleyes:

tayto lover · 01-05-2011 12:17pm

Daegerty wrote: »

Why should you have to give a sample just for being arrested. Anyone can get arrested and not have done anything wrong

Destroyed within a few years? The government destroys nothing. If anything it will get moved to the repository for 'destroyed' DNA samples and brought back again if ever needed

Wrong. A good friend of mine has made a good living out of destroying Government files. The have to destroy records after a given time, sometimes 5 years, sometimes 7.

Biggins · 01-05-2011 12:18pm

Dave! wrote: »

Get off the fence!

LOL

Yes indeed?

MagicMarker · 01-05-2011 12:19pm

k_mac wrote: »

Someone asked what else a DNA database could be used for and I answered.

On scanning back it appears it was actually you that asked what else a DNA database could be used for. Why ask if you didn't want an answer?

My question was in relation to the OP, about a DNA database for convicted criminals and people arrested for crimes that carry a 5> year sentence. Your answer was related to maternity/paternity tests and welfare fraud. Obviously this isn't relevant when there isn't a DNA database for new born babies.

MagicSean · 01-05-2011 12:21pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

My question was in relation to the OP, about a DNA database for convicted criminals and people arrested for crimes that carry a 5> year sentence. Your answer was related to maternity/paternity tests and welfare fraud. Obviously this isn't relevant when there isn't a DNA database for new born babies.

A DNA database can be used for anyone not just criminals. All it would require is for the government to ammend some laws and voila, DNA for everyone.

talla10 · 01-05-2011 12:22pm

Of course such a database should be set up. I think we're years behind every other country in the world in this regard. If people aren't involved in crime why would it bother them??

And how would you feel if you were a victim of crime and they caught the offenders with the assistance of this database. If it's me i'd be thinking thank god for that database and i'm glad we didnt listen to the PC brigade who opposed such database being set up.

IMO the only reason people would oppose this is because they have something to hide. Or else their just idiots who like giving out.

unknownlegend · 01-05-2011 12:24pm

k_mac wrote: »

A DNA database can be used for anyone not just criminals. All it would require is for the government to ammend some laws and voila, DNA for everyone.

I sort of agree with this. Very often the extreme case (criminals, sentence > 5 years) is used to introduce something. Then, after a few years, it's any criminals. For example in the UK already anyone arrested and detained at a police station now has to provide DNA. Note, you could be 100% innocent and still have to give DNA. For me, this is a worry.

Gummy Panda · 01-05-2011 12:24pm

unknownlegend wrote: »

To name a few;
Insurance company gold mine
Genetic profiling
Employers, schools, adoption agency selection processes
Selection for visas for other countries/border patrol (see biometric chips which are being considered)
Genetic/hereditary disease detection
Mental health markers adding you to a watch list of 'unstable' people
Various minorities who would love to get a hold of this info.
down the line consider cloning, designer babies, and a two tiered society (super dna vs ordinary dna)
Etc etc etc.

This is a country where the implementation of an evoting system was an unmitigated disaster, does that inspire confidence for them to hold and protect your dna pattern?

Edit: again in principle I think it could be good, but it isn't a matter of just lashing ahead with in an ad hoc manner.

I liked the film Gattaca too

Einhard · 01-05-2011 12:25pm

unknownlegend wrote: »

Are people naive enough to think it'll only be used for this purpose?

In principle it's got merit but it'd never be ethically correct.

I'm naive enough. The state has a duty and responsibility to its citizens, and unlike in the movies, we have the means to ensure they meet their obligations.

unknownlegend wrote: »

This is a country where the implementation of an evoting system was an unmitigated disaster, does that inspire confidence for them to hold and protect your dna pattern?

Hold up a mo. Did you complete the census? There's enough personal information there to keep identity thieves happy for years. But people still completed it, and sent it back to the state. Every day, thousannds of Irish people hand personal info over to the state, and thusfar, there has been very little evidence of the massive breaches of privacy that you envisage in such scenarios.

Also, every state fucks up now anw then. Irish people go on as if the e-voting debacle was the greatest disaster to every hit a country, when in reality, it was a pretty minor slip up, and certainly no reason to abandon all trust in the state.

unknownlegend · 01-05-2011 12:30pm

Einhard wrote: »

I'm naive enough. The state has a duty and responsibility to its citizens, and unlike in the movies, we have the means to ensure they meet their obligations.

Hold up a mo. Did you complete the census? There's enough personal information there to keep identity thieves happy for years. But people still completed it, and sent it back to the state. Every day, thousannds of Irish people hand personal info over to the state, and thusfar, there has been very little evidence of the massive breaches of privacy that you envisage in such scenarios.

Also, every state fucks up now anw then. Irish people go on as if the e-voting debacle was the greatest disaster to every hit a country, when in reality, it was a pretty minor slip up, and certainly no reason to abandon all trust in the state.

Good points, and I agree. I'm playing devils advocate a bit, it's one thing to hand over information but quite another when you're in the situation of potentially being compelled to hand over your DNA. Of course this may never come to pass, and hey, if you trust the system you've got nothing to fear

Edit: this being AH and all I wonder if they'll let me profile these DNA databases to locate all the hot wimminz and find out what their weakness is, red roses, chocolates, rohypnol...!

AaronEnnis · 01-05-2011 12:30pm

unknownlegend wrote: »

To name a few;
Insurance company gold mine
Genetic profiling
Employers, schools, adoption agency selection processes
Selection for visas for other countries/border patrol (see biometric chips which are being considered)
Genetic/hereditary disease detection
Mental health markers adding you to a watch list of 'unstable' people
Various minorities who would love to get a hold of this info.
down the line consider cloning, designer babies, and a two tiered society (super dna vs ordinary dna)
Etc etc etc.

This is a country where the implementation of an evoting system was an unmitigated disaster, does that inspire confidence for them to hold and protect your dna pattern?

Edit: again in principle I think it could be good, but it isn't a matter of just lashing ahead with in an ad hoc manner.

I believe the database in question involves a DNA profile obtained from 8/11/13 specific regions of DNA, used for matching profiles to one another mainly in criminal cases - I dont think the Gardaí would have much use for disease markers. You may be thinking of genome sequencing.

In any case, a database like this would have huge implications for juries in understanding the whole process of DNA profiling, i.e. 'what can it prove'. Also, the potential for 'planting' DNA samples at a crime scene, or finding a false match in the lab, and conveniently arriving at a match for someone with previous convictions has to be considered, however unlikely the circumstances. This was the main concern a few years ago when the talks of this database last resurfaced.

I expect the Jim Corr fanatics to be out in full force on this thread, so that's all Im going to say on it.

RichieC · 01-05-2011 12:31pm

Its a good idea... though it would seem to layman that it's first time non career offenders that receive the harshest penalties in this country. So it it really that useful?

Lu Tze · 01-05-2011 12:39pm

Bosco boy wrote: »

Law biding people have nothing to fear, why protect criminals and perverts?

Indeed - law abiding people have nothing to fear - as they wouldn't for random house searches/phone tapping/internet monitoring.

Bring it all in i say publish whatever you find in the local paper as law abiding citizens have nothing to hide!

Capt'n Midnight · 01-05-2011 12:40pm

Newborn infants have a blood sample taken. ye olde heel prick test.

In Holles Street there are cards with this drop of blood for everyone born here since 1984, they had everyone since 1966 but they were damaged in a flood.

At present it would be too epensive, but DNA sequencing prices are dropping all the time and within the next then years it would be possible to do full sequences for a few hundred million.

/Removes thin foil hat.

At present much of DNA matching is a trade secret, we don't know exactly which enzymes are used , so we don't know the true likely hood of a false positive. With full genome sequencing the chances of adefinitive match are that much higher. Still doesn't solve the problem of accidental continamition or coincidence or pure dumb luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

update - more to show that the umbilical cord is a ready source of DNA
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/main-hospitals-veto-lifesaving-cordblood-bank-1085759.html

The Coombe, the Rotunda and the National Maternity Hospital at Holles Street have agreed on a policy of not carrying out routine collection and storage of umbilical cord blood, which contains valuable cells for use in the treatment of such illnesses as leukemia and cystic fibrosis.

Capt'n Midnight · 01-05-2011 12:50pm

k_mac wrote: »

They take the DNA of the mother and child to confirm that they are in fact mother and child. You don't get welfare payments unless you submit to the test.

In stupid White Men Micheal Moore stated that several million children dissapeared in the US at the stroke of midnight at year end. It happened because the IRS asked for the social security numbers of dependent children from then on.

In France they trialed a fingerprint reader instead of chip and pin. As you'd imagine credit card fraud plummeted, but chip and pin was cheaper, especially since the banks have dumped all risk onto the customer.

WindSock · 01-05-2011 12:50pm

It would be too easy to set someone up with it though.

PeakOutput · 01-05-2011 12:53pm

WindSock wrote: »

It would be too easy to set someone up with it though.

I hadn't actually thought of this, that is a pretty good point

In general though I am fine with national id cards for everyone and dna databases for everyone. the prerequisite is you hav to trust your goverment which a lot of people in this country don't seem to

orourkeda · 01-05-2011 12:54pm

I'd have no problem if it is purely and simply a means of solving crime.

However, like a lot of other things in life, it may open to abuse.

Sonnenblumen · 01-05-2011 12:54pm

Compulsory DNA register of everyone convicted of serious crime.

orourkeda · 01-05-2011 12:55pm

WindSock wrote: »

It would be too easy to set someone up with it though.

Set up could happen anyway. Where there's a will there's a way.

Einhard · 01-05-2011 12:56pm

WindSock wrote: »

It would be too easy to set someone up with it though.

The same could be said about fingerprints. OIr even witness evidence.

I don't think DNA should be used as the only factor in a conviction, but it has an important role to play as a supplementary factor.

MagicDave · 01-05-2011 1:02pm

I completely disagree with a national DNA database. If it was only used to track murders that would be one thing, but really it'd be used for lesser crimes including ones involving protest. It would be used to keep people under control more than it would to protect them.

orourkeda · 01-05-2011 1:06pm

Einhard wrote: »

The same could be said about fingerprints. OIr even witness evidence.

I don't think DNA should be used as the only factor in a conviction, but it has an important role to play as a supplementary factor.

There was a recent radio documentary casting doubt over the use of fingerprints as evidence. There was a recent case in the U.S linking a muslim to the train bombing in Madrid. His fingerprints were found in the area at the time. Turns out he was never in Madrid and it was a serious case of mistaken Identity.Just highlights your point.

Biggins · 01-05-2011 1:07pm

MagicDave wrote: »

I completely disagree with a national DNA database. If it was only used to track murders that would be one thing, but really it'd be used for lesser crimes including ones involving protest. It would be used to keep people under control more than it would to protect them.

The important word above should be the underlined one.
If you are not breaking the law - what the hell have you got to worry about?
If your breaking the law, well ye reap as ye sow!

orourkeda · 01-05-2011 1:08pm

MagicDave wrote: »

I completely disagree with a national DNA database. If it was only used to track murders that would be one thing, but really it'd be used for lesser crimes including ones involving protest. It would be used to keep people under control more than it would to protect them.

But a crime database wouldn't have to be set up. If the use of DNA is to be used as a means of controlling masses of people surely theres an easier way. Besides not everyone will go through the criminal justice system.

Is it right to have a national DNA database to tackle crime?

Is it right to have a national DNA database to tackle crime? 249 votes

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