Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Is that actually meant to be a serious argument?

Don't try play the fool here, the US military (if not most military's) is not designed to attack civilian targets, or indeed defend against 'civilian' attacks.

You don't think the fact that

1. They were civilian aircraft
2. Were over civilian airspace, over a crowded city
3. Did not know where they were headed
4. Did not know the intent was to use the planes as weapons
5. No opposing military involvement

had anything to do with it, no? Anyway, this is a topic for another conversation, but your argument is still quite ridiculous.

Anyway, as has been discussed numerous times, I'd seriously doubt we're the top of anyone's list for an attack.

The cost of having a fully fledged, integrated air defence system in this country FAR outweighs ANY tiny risk there may be of an aerial attack.

We don't have the funds, and the risk does not exist. Simple.

Therefore, we do not, nor ever have, had the need for a complex air defence system in Ireland.

It was actually, for the poster who suggested we needed interceptor aircraft to deter such an attack.
There are far greater priorities in military aviation that we do need. Interceptor fighter jets are not them.

Being able to move a company of soldiers by air would be a start.

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

While I wholeheartedly agree, is the discussion not about air / naval defence?

Surely troop transport would some under another heading.

No.

The reason we do not have greater Air defence is because it is not a high priority. Troop transport is.

And a Bofors 40mm still isn't a Pom-Pom.

the threads about irish air corps and lack of air defence are always so amusing. Basically the thread revolves around 2 positions. The first being we need air defence which im for advocating for and yes that involves spending money.

The other opposing viewpoint or lets say alternative one is that we don't need to spend money on air defence but rather we should spend it on troop transport aircraft. The funny thing about this position is that they never spend it at all. Spend what exactly. Its like that guy who keeps telling you how hes going to buy an aston martin when he 'gets the money'. Until then he drives around in a mondeo. Year after year he'll tell you hes going to buy until you eventually stop believing his bull###

We neither have proper air defence or proper troop transport. We simply don't spend any money on aircraft. If you take a look at our entire fleet of aircraft we have about 24 and that includes the learjets, garda helicopters and useless aircraft like the cessna.

For a country of 4.4 million people to only have 24 aircraft in their military is an absolute embarrassment. Not alone this but they bascially operate as an ambulance service which in most countries is carried out by civillian operators. Even countries who don't consider themselves militaristic in nature or even neutral by status have at least 3 times this number. Its just plain gross negligence of duty.

Theres no point mentioning troop transport and the likes when we don't even have attrition rates built into purchasing contracts. I swear do some of the folks bangin on about troop transport, have you actually looked at our air corps inventory?. Its like your heads are in the clouds. Your busy talking about specs for aircraft and how the troops will be transported and you don't seem to realise we haven't ever spent money on aircraft whose role could be considered militaristic. Are you getting the picture?

I think thats the point some people are making. Our air corps don't have any defined roles. They just go around occupying a jack of all trades position i.e rescuing people, carrying out forest fire prevention services, carrying out ministerial transport, carrying out an air ambulance roles, looking good for the flickr/youtube propaganda brigade, ie making it look like they actually do something for the army.

So the point which is fact is that we basically have no air defence in this country and are incapable of defending our own airspace. Not alone that unlike nearly all countries our air wing doesn't operate in support of the army soley but rather in a civllian role. So bascially what we have are civillian helicopters painted green to give the illusion of some relevance to military operations. Year after year people bang on on these boards about troop transport and the likes and yet in 30 years of the air corps they have purchased less then 18 aircraft.

Thats the reality. If your going to claim to have an 'air corps' you do it right or you don't do it at all. Our whole defence strategy in relation to the air corps is a joke.

well word is we will be purchasing jets under the next defense review so bite on that

Avgas wrote: »

Fast jets in the Irish defence white paper.....to paraphrase OS119 have you been smoking crack again?

Never mind pay for them, how about even pay their fuel bill?

Perhaps it might be more useful if we discussed sensible items for any wish list?

Level 4 protection MRAPs and/or kits to do the same for some of our Pirhana fleet
Proper medium level UAVs to complement the Orbiter
Designated Marksmen Rifles and Light Machine Guns....etc.

with money how else. Fast jets! Begorrahh!


Machine guns and marksmens rifles? ffs...

Those are all nice cute little toys you want but we need real defence to defend our airspace then we can start thinking of sending people abroad. Whats the point even sending people abroad and they have to rent the goddam choppers from other countries and even when they do they ))))ox that up too. They spend more money getting things wrong then just getting the right equipment.


Its not only our airspace that cannot be defended our naval service is also way underfunded and resourced. Our priorities are all back to front. No other country in the world would consider doing this. Totally pointless. Our population is now over 4.5 miilion, we can't defend our own airspace and your banging on about uavs. Theres no point calling yourself a defence force if you can't defend your airspace. None. Call yourself humanitarian relief force or something.

Linkus wrote: »

What exactly does Ireland have to defend it's airspace from?
There's not one country in the world with the capabilities of attacking Ireland from the air, or the sea for that matter, that be able to stop the UK from intervening on behalf of Ireland.
As things stand now that is.
If Ireland turns into the international meeting ground for all the 'bad people' in the world then things might change.

There's no sense in purchasing fixed wing fighting aircraft simply because we don't need them.
Helicopters and other infantry based vehicles would make far more sense because of our UN etc missions.
Even then though, Ireland doesn't exactly throw it's weight around in the UN, I can't see many countries demanding Ireland step up it's involvement in peace keeping missions.

This is just the point really isn't it. Im not going to address your points individually because if you read over my previous postings you'll see i've addressed every single point you've made.

See Herein lies the problem when your discussing/debating this issue with some irish people. As evidenced by the above response, they don't see the problem in not having an airforce or being able to defend their own countries airspace. They don't feel embarrassment in even saying 'the uk will step in and save us'. Its a lazy sloth like attitude. They think someone else will do it for us so why should we spend money.

This is where we fundamentally differ and will not reach agreement. I view as all nations do the ability to defend my country, its airspace and its surronding seas as vital to being able to claim my country as an independent nation. If we can't defend our own airspace or even stop threats within our own airspace in my view we are not an independent nation and our constitution isn't worth the paper its written on. The u.k or any other country could easily claim ownership of it and you know what theres not a thing we could do about it if they did. Its not that they would do it but the fact that we couldn't do anything about it if they did.

You view this as not important. You want to have your cake and eat it. You want all the fringe benefits of being an independent nation yet you don't want to look after the welfare of that nation. And air defence is part of looking after the welfare of your nation and theres no getting around that. Its like if you left your car out the front and left the doors open at night.

The helicopter argument again. Go back and read my previous points there and you'll see i've already pointed out how we can't even get this right.

Most countries in the world consider the defence of their lands, their own airspace and surrounding seas important because it means they value their countries defence.Regardless of wheither their is a major threat to these countries(most of which like ireland there isn't) still feel the need for an airforce to be able to do so if the need arises. There is a sense of pride and security in people of those nations knowing they have an airforce to defend them should 'bad' things happen. Airforces project power and security and reassures people in times of need. In essence it shows they care about defending their airspace, consequently meaning they value their countries independence, their lives, their security, their fellow citizens and take pride in having only the best defence avaliable 'SHOULD' things go wrong.

Our airwing or pathetic attempt at one shows just how much we value ourselves and our military. Why do i even need to explain this and how many times do i have too...:rolleyes: 7 Fixed wing turboprops to defend an island of over 4.5 million people? No other country in the world would even consider doing this because it represents stupidity of the highest level and secondly they value their own defence. The real scam here is the neglect of our air wing over decades.

You buy training aircraft to train on so you can progress to fighter and jet aircraft. You don't use the training aircraft for 'light air defense' or any other type of defence. They are training aircraft. They don't have the range/speed or deterrents which can to be used as defence against terrorist/Asymmetric or future air based threats currently capable of threatening any countries security within the E.U. See libya for example, situations and world politics/threats change rapidly and we are not going to be on the fringes of europe trying to hide in the dark forever.

Our european friends are going to demand it from us given the fact they bailed us out and we signed a little agreement called lisbon in case you can't remember.

I never said anything about countries attacking ireland. Regardless of these factors being taken into account an airforce should still be in operation over our skies simply because we claim to be a sovereign independent nation whom it is our reponsibility to look after ourselves. Some of you its seems wish we were under british rule.

Please Stop the penny pinching arguments coz they've all been heard and they don't fly. We spend so little of our overall gdp on defence relative to our size and other nations, its a joke, and despite this your still whinging about miniscule amounts being spent here and there. It reminds me of the stereotypical old irish man at the pub moaning and grumbling and counting his pennies after he finds out he has to buy a few rounds for some people.

I understand about irelands peacekeeping role but theres little point defending another group/nation of people against aggressors when you can't even defend your own airspace or even have your airlift capacity in order. See the irony here? Its like you want merits from other nations and people for going overseas and protecting people in lebannon and you can't even defend your own countries airspace. Theres nothing wrong with defending innocent civllians but fix your own backyard first before worrying about defending other people. Defence of your own country should always be priority regardless of the threat level. Then we get others defence sorted out. Otherwise its just a joke and currently it is a joke. A mish mash of operational procedures done all wrong because we have absolutely no experience sorting our own (((( out. There isn't even redundancy built into contracts for procurements.

To end, You know some countries do actually use their own military industries to provide employment, help their economies and their own people as well as increasing exports. They do this instead of sitting around begrudging, complaining and relying on other people to do it for them. Don't knock it untill you have tried it.