Issues Playing / Editing Humax HD Fox T2 Saorview Recordings on a PC

dmm1000 · 27-04-2011 11:35AM #1

Hi All

I have purchased recently a Humax HD Fox T2 (non PVR version) for Saorview
And have downloaded the latest firmware and added an external hard drive – to turn it into a PVR – this all works fine – it records and plays back Saoirview perfectly on the Humax box itself
The problem arises when I go to transfer the recordings to a PC – basically in a nutshell because it seems they are in MPEG4 format and as far as I know using the M2TS container (they have an extension of .TS) they will not even play in VLC (Windows 7)
I have tried various programs to try and even demux the streams to begin within (the ultimate goal is to try to convert to ANY file that will play on at least a PC (but then hopefully XBOX / PS3)
I’ve tried several demuxers such as TSMUXER / DOCTOR TS / VideoRedo / PVAStrumento – they either just crash but mostly complain that the Program Map Table (PMT) is missing from the recorded file

I have been reading on AVForums about this and it seems its ok with getting UK (non HD) freeview recordings playable on a PC because they are MPEG2 but I think that because Saorview is MPEG4 whatever PC Tools / converters I use there is always an issue – so basically I’m stuck with playing recordings back on the Humax HD Fox T2 for now

Has anybody who owns this particular model successfully managed to get Saorview recordings either playing on a PC using a particular software or managed to edit the video / audio (chop out ad breaks etc etc) ?

Apogee · 27-04-2011 06:13PM

I've noticed that PMT error showing up live on a Vu+ Duo. It might be an error in the transmitted stream, or there may have been changes to the channel settings - might be worth deleting the existing channels and doing a rescan.

For playback on PC, you'll need an MPEG4 codec (such as the one which comes with PowerDVD 8 or above). I find Media Player Classic (such as comes with Real Alternative) better than VLC sometimes for playback.

dellWlan · 27-04-2011 08:45PM

afterdawn is always good for guides, how to's and info

http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/archive/how_to_play_ts_content_on_playstation_3_ps3.cfm

... just read it though and it says to use tsmuxer...sorry

dmm1000 · 27-04-2011 09:21PM

thanks guys
yes tried most of the software / advice on videohelp.com / afterdawn

it must be a peculiarity in the Saorview mpeg4 stream - will do a rescan and see what happens - or may just replace the humax for another pvr that produces more "pc friendly" recorded files which allow themselves to be demuxed and edited (my main requirement)

Apogee · 27-04-2011 09:34PM

If you're reading UK forums, then whatever apps they use for HD material on the Humax should also work for Saorview because they're both MPEG4.

Apogee · 27-04-2011 09:42PM

Well, a quick Google throws up a major potential problem with this box:

Both the HD and HDR encrypt all SD and HD recordings on the drive used for recording. With the HDR you can copy SD recordings to an external drive and they are then unencrypted and can be played on a PC. With the HD it doesn't seem to unencrypt when copying to a second drive (this requires a powered USB hub as well) - I think this is a bug. In both cases you can't unencrypt HD recordings.

If the above is true, then there's a very strong possibility that this receiver sees the Saorview MPEG4 streams and automatically assumes they're HD and therefore encrypts them.

You should check a bit more if anyone has got around this problem with HD material in the UK.

dmm1000 · 27-04-2011 10:48PM

yes thats correct it seems

I read to the end of the thread - 2nd last post sums it up

"The player that is capable of playing these files is the box of electronics that encoded them in the first place."

I'm not holding out for an updated firmware from Humax for this box - time to look for an alternative i think - but i guess for those just looking to use it as a PVR and not to edit files / play recordings on other devices then it does that job ok

Johnboy1951 · 28-04-2011 09:26PM

Is this common? ........ sorry I mean the encryption of the stream when recording it ......

Do all such devices do this or only some?

I find this info very disconcerting ...... :mad:

Apogee · 28-04-2011 09:47PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Is this common? ........ sorry I mean the encryption of the stream when recording it ......

Do all such devices do this or only some?

I find this info very disconcerting ...... :mad:

Official UK Freesat HD and Freeview HD boxes do. In the case of Freesat HD boxes, you can get around it with the Humax ones by recording HD material in non-Freesat mode.

I'm not sure how many Freeview HD receivers have USB ports for transferring material - if they do, I suspect they are obliged to encrypt the HD material.

Johnboy1951 · 29-04-2011 07:40PM

Apogee wrote: »

Official UK Freesat HD and Freeview HD boxes do. In the case of Freesat HD boxes, you can get around it with the Humax ones by recording HD material in non-Freesat mode.

I'm not sure how many Freeview HD receivers have USB ports for transferring material - if they do, I suspect they are obliged to encrypt the HD material.

Thanks for the info.

Now beginning to wonder about the Saorview situation ... I will be interested to read about Saorview PVR devices ....

STB · 29-04-2011 07:55PM

Run it through TS Doctor (cypheros).

It will rebuild the PMT for you and save the file with a name of file_fixed after it.

Format Factory and XMedia Recode allow chopping out of adverts of the fixed TS file.

I have no problem with RTE recordings doing this.

You will have problems with BBC HD recordings because they do have protection in the streams.

Apogee · 29-04-2011 09:00PM

@STB - Do you know why that PMT error is present? Is there something broken in the RTÉ streams?

dmm1000 · 29-04-2011 09:03PM

thanks STB - been there done that - no joy - as soon as i open the file it goes through a series of "tests" the first few it passes in green - then see the failure to find a PMT table is the one in red - see the results - attached

STB · 29-04-2011 09:27PM

Apogee wrote: »

@STB - Do you know why that PMT error is present? Is there something broken in the RTÉ streams?

There is no protection in the raw transport streams broadcst by RTE (or infact BBC via Freeview etc).

Its controlled by the box Apogee. In order to get freeview HD certification its enforced in the firmware for all Freeview HD boxes. As a knock on effect the Freeview HD box and its interoperability with Saorview as recordings go, are also affected.

Of course any combo box wont have the same limitations. I regularly get PMT errors and have to rebuild it through TS Doctor but it doesnt crash on running Cypheros.

The problem I gather is Freeview HD certified products and the inbuilt protection in play that goes with getting that certification - its only on HD - not SD. Copy control in the UK.

One for those to bear in mind buying Freeviews HD products who want to archive stuff to DVD or move to laptop etc.

@dm1000 - sorry man - I dont crack encryption. However I suggest you look around for alternative "third party" firmware for that Humax model. Its bound to have cheesed someone else off. It will be an issue for a one box solution in cross border areas !

Apogee · 29-04-2011 09:29PM

I was asking about the PMT errors, not the protection flags. Do you know what is causing the PMT errors?

STB · 29-04-2011 09:54PM

Yes. It cant find the data. Its normally the PAT it cant find so TS Doctor rebuilds a new one from PMT. If you dont do that VLC crashes.

PAT is the Program Association Table. This table lists all the services found in this Transport Stream. Each service is identified by a PMT. The PAT is always on PID 0.

PMT is the Program Map Table. This table identifies all the Elementary Streams within a service. There is one PMT per service, but there may be more that one PMT on the same PID.

Here is a rebuilt PAT from PMT report for RTE 1.

Apogee · 29-04-2011 10:25PM

OK, I appreciate the reply, but that wasn't what I was asking either.

I was wondering what is causing the PMT error in the first place i.e. is it a problem at the receive end (poor signal, problematic receiver) or is it a problem at the transmission end (data missing in the transmitted stream, improperly encoded/broken stream)?

STB · 30-04-2011 02:29AM

I know what your asking but I dont have a DVM400 lying around.

I dont know if looking at basic recent PAT, PMT data would help either. The H264 streams are a little more complex.

Textbook answer is that its one of three things i.e. at TX end

Repitition rate less than 500ms
No or Scrambled PAT/PMT missing in PAT
Table ID not equal to zero for PAT (for PMT ID value is 2).

But that would mean the receiver wouldnt decode anything. So what extra/less is the receiver doing with the TS/TRPs that it is recording. Well its is apparent what extra it is doing on Freeview HD gear.

Withour proper testing equipment you cant compare.

Apogee · 30-04-2011 12:31PM

Right, getting back to original problem do you know with the Freeview HD receivers, does the receiver encrypt material when it sees a specific (copy protection) flag in the stream, or does it simply turn on encryption when it sees that the video is MPEG4?

Apogee · 30-04-2011 01:00PM

@dmm1000 - can you do a factory reset on the receiver, rescan the channels and upload a 10-20 sec recording from RTE1 so we could have a look?

dmm1000 · 30-04-2011 02:33PM

hi guys
i sure will - i may not get to do it this weekend - but will upload a short clip / file asap
As far as i know yes - it must be encrypting because it is MPEG4 (surely RTE have no deliberate encryptions in place ? ) - there must be something in the firmware which recognises MPEG4 and then encrypts it (but im guessing in fairness) - I think in order to get Freeview HD certification the set top box must by law encrypt HD recordings (my guess is that although Saorview is MPEG4 but not necessarily HD - (its was TG4 recordings im having problems with) then it goes ahead and encrypts regardless
another interesting side question is - does each Freeview HD box that implements encryption use the same algorithim to encrypt (or is each manufacturer unique in their encryption algorithim ) ?

Also i would like to hear from any users of Walker STB's (those Walkers that can record to USB device) - any of you have issues with trransferring your recordings on a PC (editing / playing) ?

Johnboy1951 · 30-04-2011 05:56PM

On a related note I will post my recent experience with a USB DTT dongle .... one of those 'cheapies'.

I recorded from TG4 last night, the film "The Return of a Man Called Horse".
Using Linux, I recorded fom Kaffeine, to one large file ... 2.6GBs
That file will play in some media players but will for instance crash VLC. That is a problem I have been aware of for some time ..... VLC does not like the format of the Kaffeine file at all it seems.
I ran the file through ffmpeg to 'tidy-up' the m2t stream and VLC will play that readily.

Here is the mediainfo of the recorded file .....

mediainfo '/home/user/Videos/The Return of a Man Called Horse-2.m2t'
General
ID                               : 1001 (0x3E9)
Complete name                    : /home/user/Videos/The Return of a Man Called Horse-2.m2t
Format                           : MPEG-TS
File size                        : 2.61 GiB
Duration                         : 2h 6mn
Overall bit rate                 : 2 959 Kbps

Video
ID                               : 1104 (0x450)
Menu ID                          : 1104 (0x450)
Format                           : AVC
Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                   : Main@L3.0
Format settings, CABAC           : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames        : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP             : M=1, N=48
Codec ID                         : 27
Duration                         : 2h 6mn
Bit rate                         : 2 554 Kbps
Width                            : 544 pixels
Height                           : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio             : 16:9
Frame rate                       : 25.000 fps
Color space                      : YUV
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Scan type                        : Interlaced
Scan order                       : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.326
Stream size                      : 2.25 GiB (86%)
Color primaries                  : BT.470-6 System B, BT.470-6 System G, BT.601-6 625, BT.1358 625, BT.1700 625 PAL, BT.1700 625 SECAM
Transfer characteristics         : BT.470-6 System B, BT.470-6 System G
Matrix coefficients              : BT.470-6 System B, BT.470-6 System G, BT.601-6 625, BT.1358 625, BT.1700 625 PAL, BT.1700 625 SECAM, IEC 61966-2-4 601

Audio #1
ID                               : 1204 (0x4B4)
Menu ID                          : 1104 (0x450)
Format                           : MPEG Audio
Format version                   : Version 1
Format profile                   : Layer 2
Codec ID                         : 4
Duration                         : 2h 6mn
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 192 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode                 : Lossy
Delay relative to video          : -698ms
Stream size                      : 174 MiB (6%)
Language                         : iri

Audio #2
ID                               : 1214 (0x4BE)
Menu ID                          : 1104 (0x450)
Format                           : MPEG Audio
Format version                   : Version 1
Format profile                   : Layer 2
Codec ID                         : 4
Duration                         : 2h 6mn
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 64.0 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 1 channel
Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode                 : Lossy
Delay relative to video          : -676ms
Stream size                      : 57.8 MiB (2%)
Language                         : nar

Text #1
ID                               : 1304 (0x518)-100
Menu ID                          : 1104 (0x450)
Format                           : Teletext

Text #2
ID                               : 1304 (0x518)-888
Menu ID                          : 1104 (0x450)
Format                           : Teletext Subtitle

.. and the 'tidied' file .....

mediainfo /home/user/Videos/tidied-film.m2t
General
ID                               : 1 (0x1)
Complete name                    : /home/user/Videos/test.m2t
Format                           : MPEG-TS
File size                        : 2.48 GiB
Duration                         : 2h 6mn
Overall bit rate                 : 2 811 Kbps

Video
ID                               : 256 (0x100)
Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
Format                           : AVC
Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                   : Main@L3.0
Format settings, CABAC           : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames        : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP             : M=1, N=48
Codec ID                         : 27
Duration                         : 2h 6mn
Bit rate                         : 2 478 Kbps
Width                            : 544 pixels
Height                           : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio             : 16:9
Frame rate                       : 25.000 fps
Color space                      : YUV
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Scan type                        : Interlaced
Scan order                       : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.316
Stream size                      : 2.19 GiB (88%)
Color primaries                  : BT.470-6 System B, BT.470-6 System G, BT.601-6 625, BT.1358 625, BT.1700 625 PAL, BT.1700 625 SECAM
Transfer characteristics         : BT.470-6 System B, BT.470-6 System G
Matrix coefficients              : BT.470-6 System B, BT.470-6 System G, BT.601-6 625, BT.1358 625, BT.1700 625 PAL, BT.1700 625 SECAM, IEC 61966-2-4 601

Audio
ID                               : 257 (0x101)
Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
Format                           : MPEG Audio
Format version                   : Version 1
Format profile                   : Layer 2
Codec ID                         : 3
Duration                         : 2h 6mn
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 192 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode                 : Lossy
Delay relative to video          : -1s 638ms
Stream size                      : 174 MiB (7%)
Language                         : iri

Menu
ID                               : 4095 (0xFFF)
Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
Duration                         : 2h 6mn
List                             : 256 (0x100) (AVC) / 257 (0x101) (MPEG Audio, iri)
Language                         :  / iri
Service name                     : Service01
Service provider                 : FFmpeg
Service type                     : digital television

That of course is in ~SD and not HD as it is from TG4.

I intend to do a similar exercise on some programme on RTE2 to see how that behaves.

Ques:
Is there a suitable section in boards to start a thread about the actual video file being transmitted .... to discuss the various aspects of handling the video files themselves rather than the transport mechanisms?
I had a look but did not spot anything appropriate.

Thanks.

STB · 01-05-2011 01:58PM

Apogee wrote: »

Right, getting back to original problem do you know with the Freeview HD receivers, does the receiver encrypt material when it sees a specific (copy protection) flag in the stream, or does it simply turn on encryption when it sees that the video is MPEG4?

Well by strict interpretation of the invisible DBook all H264 streams might be affected as UK Freeview SD material is presented in MPEG2, so L3 H264 streams that we use for SD would be a casualty.

The are using look up tables and a decompression algorithm encoded via Huffman.

Apogee · 01-05-2011 03:19PM

STB wrote: »

Well by strict interpretation of the invisible DBook all H264 streams might be affected as UK Freeview SD material is presented in MPEG2, so L3 H264 streams that we use for SD would be a casualty.

That's an awfully complicated way of saying you don't know either.

Apogee · 01-05-2011 03:21PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Is there a suitable section in boards to start a thread about the actual video file being transmitted .... to discuss the various aspects of handling the video files themselves rather than the transport mechanisms?
I had a look but did not spot anything appropriate.

I'd say post a new thread in this forum as you'll prob encounter a greater proportion of users interested in it here (and with access to suitable equipment) as anywhere else on boards.

STB · 02-05-2011 05:25AM

Apogee wrote: »

That's an awfully complicated way of saying you don't know either.

Only members of DTG have a copy of the Dbook (7).

The 6th edition was centred around DVB-T2 MPEG4. The latest version 7 has even newer proposals in this area including a structure to enable support for multiple DRMs.

Anyhow would my interpretation be any different to Humax ? For implementation purposes it might have been easier to seperate all H264 streams from archival to PC (and the ultimate fear of getting to the internet, shock horror).

As we know already, some manufacturers have had different interpretations of Dbook guidelines, particularly Panasonic.

The person that might know the answer to the question raised by dmm1000 would be Humax's Chief technologist, Bob Hannent.

Twitter: Bobdvb and his email is his first name at humaxdigital.com.

Apogee · 02-05-2011 01:47PM

It would make more sense to have a specific copy-protection flag in the stream which would allow broadcasters to turn on/off copy-protection at will. However, who knows whether individual manufacturers wouldn't still cut corners and encrypt all mpeg4 material assuming its all HD.

If we had access to the files from other Freeview HD recs which had been used to record Saorview matieral, we could get an idea whether the OPs problem is due to encryption or something else.

dmm1000 · 02-05-2011 05:18PM

I had lent my friend the Humax to try out last weekend I've asked him to record a few short clips of RTE1 / TG4 and will hopefully have them mid week

dmm1000 · 03-05-2011 11:28PM

Hi Apogee / STB

PM sent giving access to some sample recordings on the Humax HD Fox T2
You can have a play if you get a chance - appreciated

fat-tony · 04-05-2011 09:58AM

dmm1000 wrote: »

Hi Apogee / STB

PM sent giving access to some sample recordings on the Humax HD Fox T2
You can have a play if you get a chance - appreciated

I have TS stream analyser and a good selection of players if you want me to have a go also;)

dmm1000 · 04-05-2011 12:30PM

sure Tony - pm sent

and anyone else who would like to have a look at some recordings (.ts files) produced by the Humax HD Fox T2 receiver I can PM you the link where you can download them from - I know some of you may even actually enjoy looking at these things but I appreciate it requires use of your spare time

Issues Playing / Editing Humax HD Fox T2 Saorview Recordings on a PC

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