Teachers, Bankers, and Job Security

Freddie59 · 26-04-2011 06:07PM

Feeona wrote: »

I find it odd that you think someone is 'moaning' when they're worried about losing their job, or getting further paycuts.

Feeona - the point is that the money is not there. Now, I'm assuming you're a teacher. Would you prefer a lower paid (and thus more secure) job - or no job at all?

Feeona wrote: »

Did you tell your colleagues to quit their 'moaning' when they lost their jobs?

They didn't moan Feeona. They were just very sad. As we all were. And the thing is; there wasn't the comfort of falling back on the taxpayer. Ireland, Inc is in incredible trouble - and the banking and teaching unions cannot grasp what is going to happen.

Feeona wrote: »

Also your company was doing badly, bad enough to make people redundant. Yet you never gave up your job to help save money for the company. Why is that?

You can't speak for me Feeona. I actually did apply for the offer. The quota was reached before it got down the food chain to me - thankfully.

Freddie59 · 26-04-2011 06:09PM

el tonto wrote: »

OK, lets say a science teacher takes a class on the field trip for a day. There are eight periods in the day and he's rostered for one. That means seven periods need to be covered. There are also seven other teachers that don't have to teach a a class because their students are on a field trip. Seven teachers supervising seven periods. Who's being idle?

Supervising - or teaching?

Chips Lovell · 26-04-2011 06:11PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

Supervising - or teaching?

Sure I suppose the German teacher can teach science for a day;)

midlandsmissus · 26-04-2011 06:15PM

Also the bloody GAA bias. One of our maths teachers was our county football manager. He was either not there, or talking to the lads in the class about football. It was shocking really.

HellFireClub · 26-04-2011 06:15PM

el tonto wrote: »

OK, lets say a science teacher takes a class on the field trip for a day. There are eight periods in the day and he's rostered for one. That means seven periods need to be covered. There are also seven other teachers that don't have to teach a a class because their students are on a field trip. Seven teachers supervising seven periods. Who's being idle?

Look, I'm not that old where I can't remember a load of us from 2 or 3 classes being mashed together for an hour and paraded down to the assembly hall because the teacher was out on a field trip with a class in the year ahead of us.

I accept that the situation may arise where a teacher is not idle. But equally there may arise a situation, along the lines of the one above I've outlined, where you have a teacher who takes 2 or 3 classes of students, sticks them all in a room and supervises them in a large assembly or study area and the other teacher or two is then free to head off and do whatever they want for the rest of the day, because as per this little clause they have negotiated, they do not have to supervise another class where supervision might be required...

I went to school you know, I've seen the little handy arrangements that teachers can put in place to give themselves half days while appearing to be still at work!

HellFireClub · 26-04-2011 06:17PM

I had a maths teacher in secondary school who was a Fainna Fail Counsellor, guy was never there and when he was, all he did was tell us how his last week in the council chamber went!

This guy was a full time teacher and a full time county counsellor, there is no way on earth he could do both jobs properly or to any decent standard...

midlandsmissus · 26-04-2011 06:32PM

I have to say: the majority of people in this country do not like teachers. There is too much history over the last few years. Teachers surely go into the profession now knowing it is not a popular profession.

saywhatyousee · 26-04-2011 06:48PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Here's a very harsh statistic for some folks on here lauding the teaching community:

2008 Leaving Cert Maths paper sittings and subsequent results:

50,116 students took the Leaving Cert Maths paper...

Of this 50,116 mass of students, 5,803 students (11.6%), sat the Foundation Level paper...

35,803 students (71.4%), took the Ordinary Level paper...

Of this group of 35,803 who sat Ordinary Level, 12.3% failed to pass the paper, that's 4,404 students who sat and failed the Ordinary Level paper...

So we have 4,404 students who failed the ordinary level paper and we have the 5,803 students who didn't think they had been taught maths to such a sufficient standard, that they could even sit, let alone hope to pass, the Ordinary Level paper to begin with, which is the basic mathematical standard for any third level degree or for any job that requires even the basic standard of numeracy...

That's an almost unbelievable 10,207 students, or 20.3% of the Leaving Cert group for the year 2008, that failed to pass the Leaving Cert Ordinary Level paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaving_Certificate_Mathematics

Now don't tell me there isn't a serious problem with teacher performance behind these kind of shocking figures...

An A1 in foundation maths gets you the same points as a C3 in ordinary level

mikemac · 26-04-2011 06:52PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I have to say: the majority of people in this country do not like teachers. There is too much history over the last few years. Teachers surely go into the profession now knowing it is not a popular profession.

http://ie.ratemyteachers.com/

A lot of hype over this site a few years ago but it's sort of died off.
It's a long time since I left secondary school

But my best teachers got great reviews on that site and the worst got the criticism they deserve.

So students do seem to give credit to the good teachers, even on an anonymous rating website

Getonwithit · 26-04-2011 09:27PM

1. Teaching as a profession needs to be properly monitored. the Teaching Council should be doing this job but the reality of that organisation is that its a retirement home for teacher union officals. Thats the Govts fault, they set it up but understood with a nod and a wink that it was to keep union pricks sweet. Bad teachers and poor practices are in our schools, and there has to consequences. Good teachers would welcome this, the tar all attitude irks them.
2. The poor scores in certain subjects has a cause in society. Whats the motivation in Ireland for some? Its not a genuine knowledge economy! I dont go to college, scrape a leaving, sure whatabout it, I will jump on the biggest waste of cash in the country, the social welfare system! Hurrah wheres me house?? No dont like that one...
3. The unions are a problem for both sides. The onle people the unions suit are themselves with their 100k plus salaries. These people are as much part fo the establishment as the bankers and builders...
4. Before ya post remember its not fair to just lash every teacher... The situation is off limits as a conversation as both sides are quite entrenched.

mikemac · 26-04-2011 09:59PM

Would many teachers resign from their union? And state why
But maybe face exclusion in the staff room if they did?

Genuinely asking here. I read a lot of criticism about the unions but often it's from its own members. I read the education section of boards a lot, don't realy post though

HellFireClub · 26-04-2011 10:06PM

Getonwithit wrote: »

1. Teaching as a profession needs to be properly monitored. the Teaching Council should be doing this job but the reality of that organisation is that its a retirement home for teacher union officals. Thats the Govts fault, they set it up but understood with a nod and a wink that it was to keep union pricks sweet. Bad teachers and poor practices are in our schools, and there has to consequences. Good teachers would welcome this, the tar all attitude irks them.
2. The poor scores in certain subjects has a cause in society. Whats the motivation in Ireland for some? Its not a genuine knowledge economy! I dont go to college, scrape a leaving, sure whatabout it, I will jump on the biggest waste of cash in the country, the social welfare system! Hurrah wheres me house?? No dont like that one...
3. The unions are a problem for both sides. The onle people the unions suit are themselves with their 100k plus salaries. These people are as much part fo the establishment as the bankers and builders...
4. Before ya post remember its not fair to just lash every teacher... The situation is off limits as a conversation as both sides are quite entrenched.

When I left school, I always thought I just had a weakness at maths. I always struggled with it even at pass level. Then I went onto 3rd level, found myself in front of a lecturer in a small enough class, with a load of lads who seemed to have the very same problem as myself, even though we had all come from differents schools all over the country.

I'll never forget the pure bewilderment of the lecturer we had for maths physics. After a week or so of enquiry, he realised we were not actually winding him up, he actually genuinely had a class full of lads who didn't really understand the fundamentals of maths as would be expected of a class of folks who had just sat a Leaving Cert.

What turned out to be the case, was that because there had been some sort of a weird failure at our respective secondary schools to get taught the very basics of calculus properly, we all seemed to have an irrational fear of the subject and a fear of working with any degree of confidence with the subject of maths, especially as it was getting much more complex from our new position in 3rd level.

Any one of us could have dropped out, (and a few did), all down to this nervousness with maths because a balls had been made of the imparting of the basics of this subject in secondary school.

I'm sure the same happens with English, and people end up with problems getting through 3rd level or even jobs, all down to literary issues.

I don't think we should accept any longer that a kid in this state should be able to get through 14 odd years of formal education and come out the other end without a basic proficiency in English and Maths... Everything else is probably not critical, but to be not proficient in English or Maths I think leaves any person at a huge disadvantage in life, and especially if they are going on to do further studies, as I said before, I was blessed that I had a lecturer who took responsibility for getting me through his particular year in college, which he seemed glad to do once I was making a decent effort, although I'm sure he got paid the same whether I stayed on board or dropped out...

Getonwithit · 26-04-2011 10:09PM

Many teachers have already resigned from their unions, no stigma/exclusion, generally accepted that the unions are useless overpaid.
I would like to see what would happen if Ruairi Quinn/Govt was to try step past the Unions and talk directly to teachers in their schools. Teachers and the general public see Quinn as a sympathetic reasonable guy. But the entrenchment of the two sides of this argument means that the Unions are seen as an only resort.

byhookorbycrook · 26-04-2011 10:14PM

Deedsie wrote: »

No ill stay here thank you. I know teachers who do these tours every summer. Five of them are doing North America this summer I was informed sunday night. Three weeks at Christmas, two weeks at Easter, public holidays and three months off at summer one girl who teaches in a primary school. She teaches 5 - 7 year olds from 9-1:30 Monday to Friday.

Justify her wages, pension, lifestyle!

Primary teachers have 2 months in the summer. 9-1.30 is not a legal school day for any child who is older than infants. Unless it's a private school.

ArtSmart · 26-04-2011 10:16PM

chin_grin wrote: »

That's debatable. :pac:

I'd be "allegedly intelligent" if I could teach verbatim from a book and then check the correct answers in the index/'special red teacher-only answers book'.

lol. you've been watching the simpsons!

Dudess · 26-04-2011 11:33PM

The grief teachers get for their job is sickeningly unfair - including from parents who send their children to school (why not home-school them if teachers are so incompetent and jammy?) It was always assumed I'd teach because I was good at engaging with kids - making up songs, games, stories etc for them and there are a number of teachers in my family... but not a hope! Being responsible for the education and some aspects of the wellbing of 30 of someone else's children (it's in loco parentis so while it's not a childminding service, it's not completely separate either) is one hell of a task. And you can never even switch off for five minutes - you're constantly being focused on. Plus, there can be troublesome pupils, especially at secondary level.
Short days yes, but work isn't all done in the classroom - it's taken home also. And the short days are for the kids, unless it would be deemed reasonable for them to be in the classroom until 5.30? Same applies to the summer holidays.

The money is grand - not anything to complain about IMO but certainly not a high salary.

The one thing I don't agree with though is a dearth of summer schools, courses etc during those months, when a salary is being paid every two weeks. Seems like it would be an ideal opportunity to e.g. provide catch-up tuition.

HellFireClub · 27-04-2011 02:55PM

Dudess wrote: »

The money is grand - not anything to complain about IMO but certainly not a high salary.

The problem with Ireland is that people keep saying that 40K salary (gross) or anywhere close to it is sh*t money. In my opinion that's a truly excellent salary, anything over 35K I think is to be really appreciated I think and represents an excellent salary. In the case of teachers, this I understand is the starting salary on day one, then there are other earning opportunities such as correcting exam papers, seasonal summer work, supervised study, adult learning/evening courses, etc. I really don't get what the f*ck teachers and Gardai are complaining about...

Chips Lovell · 27-04-2011 03:20PM

Starting salary is €30K, not €40K.

Getonwithit · 27-04-2011 03:33PM

Hellfire
The starting salary is not in line with many other positions relevant to a 400 point plus leaving cert in what's supposed to be a knowledge economy?

I agree the figure is inflated by international standards but all our wages and cost of living is inflated by international standards.

byhookorbycrook · 27-04-2011 08:40PM

Starting salary only applies if you get a permanent job and as 1,200 teachers are being taken out of the system in June, no newly qualified primary teacher will have a sniff of a job for a long time to come.

HellFireClub · 27-04-2011 08:52PM

Getonwithit wrote: »

Hellfire
The starting salary is not in line with many other positions relevant to a 400 point plus leaving cert in what's supposed to be a knowledge economy?

I agree the figure is inflated by international standards but all our wages and cost of living is inflated by international standards.

I understood that a teacher starts on a payscale that starts on 35K. This is more of the same rubbish and deluded crap that I am frankly sick of listening to... Here's one reason why. I worked for many years in a large MNC in Ireland where there was no such thing as a payscale or automatic movement through a payscale, like there are for all public sector workers, be it a Garda, teacher, civil servant, etc!

Equally, when a Garda gets promoted to a Sergeant, there is an automatic adjustment in salary, or when a Garda has 4 years experience in the job as opposed to 3, his/her salary is adjusted upwards automatically due to time served in the job. When I worked in a large MNC in this country, if you got "promoted", you had to basically prove yourself in the job for 2 years before you could remotely expect to be given a salary adjustment consumerate with the new position you had secured two years previously.

If you stayed in the same position for ten years and excelled at the job, there was still no automatic movement along the payscale based on time served, you had to fight and compete with everyone else you worked with for a change in your salary... If you had absences, if you had performance issues, you'd have been extremely lucky to get your 2-4% to keep you in line with inflation, which isn't a pay increase, it's just adjusting your spending power back to where you were 12 months previously.

Seriously, starting on 30K with automatic pay increments every year, regardless of your attendance or your performance, and you are basically saying that it's a load of shyte, are you taking the p*ss???

HellFireClub · 27-04-2011 08:58PM

el tonto wrote: »

Starting salary is €30K, not €40K.

Starting salary for a teacher is 32K according to the article below with an additional allowance of 4,918 Euro for those holding an honours degree. So if you did a 4 year degree as opposed to a 3 year degree, you can start on a salary of just shy of 37K. How anyone can complain of this kind of a starting salary, with automatic increments along a very generous payscale, is literally beyond my comprehension.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0714/1224274659883.html

midlandsmissus · 27-04-2011 09:41PM

Dudess wrote: »

The grief teachers get for their job is sickeningly unfair - including from parents who send their children to school (why not home-school them if teachers are so incompetent and jammy?) It was always assumed I'd teach because I was good at engaging with kids - making up songs, games, stories etc for them and there are a number of teachers in my family... but not a hope! Being responsible for the education and some aspects of the wellbing of 30 of someone else's children (it's in loco parentis so while it's not a childminding service, it's not completely separate either) is one hell of a task. And you can never even switch off for five minutes - you're constantly being focused on. Plus, there can be troublesome pupils, especially at secondary level.
Short days yes, but work isn't all done in the classroom - it's taken home also. And the short days are for the kids, unless it would be deemed reasonable for them to be in the classroom until 5.30? Same applies to the summer holidays.

The money is grand - not anything to complain about IMO but certainly not a high salary.

The one thing I don't agree with though is a dearth of summer schools, courses etc during those months, when a salary is being paid every two weeks. Seems like it would be an ideal opportunity to e.g. provide catch-up tuition.

Not sickenly unfair. The grief teachers get isn't for no reason. It's a ridiculous set up. In what other profession would you get an ongoing bonus for having the degree you need to do the job in the first place.

byhookorbycrook · 27-04-2011 09:57PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Starting salary for a teacher is 32K according to the article below with an additional allowance of 4,918 Euro for those holding an honours degree. So if you did a 4 year degree as opposed to a 3 year degree, you can start on a salary of just shy of 37K. How anyone can complain of this kind of a starting salary, with automatic increments along a very generous payscale, is literally beyond my comprehension.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0714/1224274659883.html

All new entrants to teaching this will start at 10% than those who started last year,even if they could get work.Primary teacching is a 3 year course.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

InReality · 27-04-2011 10:00PM

The teachers and bankers unions are just playing to their members.
I think its counter productive as these types of statements makes the rest of the public more pissed off with them

Getonwithit · 27-04-2011 10:41PM

Go back to my original point. This is supposed to be a knowledge economy. The only way to assess your worth in this economy should be educational attainment. A Leaving Cert of 400+ points should reward you with more than 35000, and would in most jobs in the private sector. The majority of teachers under a certain age bracket would agree with you on the idea of pay based on competence over seniority. The system is ridiculous, and the union influence on that system is overly heavy. Dont forget though the heads of the unions are not far removed from the heads of politics..

Mardy Bum · 27-04-2011 10:46PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Starting salary for a teacher is 32K according to the article below with an additional allowance of 4,918 Euro for those holding an honours degree. So if you did a 4 year degree as opposed to a 3 year degree, you can start on a salary of just shy of 37K. How anyone can complain of this kind of a starting salary, with automatic increments along a very generous payscale, is literally beyond my comprehension.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0714/1224274659883.html

Starting salary is about €28k now following cuts and that is after 3-4 years in college along with shelling out €8k for a PGDE following your degree where you do not get paid.

Dudess · 27-04-2011 10:54PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Not sickenly unfair. The grief teachers get isn't for no reason. It's a ridiculous set up. In what other profession would you get an ongoing bonus for having the degree you need to do the job in the first place.

One thing to be irritated by teachers who whinge for seemingly piss-poor reasons, but it's appalling to give people grief merely for the conditions of their job - and not an easy job either. The mind boggles that people can think educating 30 children is a breeze.

And 30-40K is pretty good money if you have modest financial commitments, but if you have pressing ones, e.g. dependants, then it's not that great (if not terrible).

kippy · 27-04-2011 10:55PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

I for one am SICK SICK SICK to my teeth of turning on the radio and listening to some vested interest group holding a conference and threatening me with industrial unrest and all kinds of consequences, the same members of said interest group, completely and utterly protected from all real poverty and impacts to lifestyle, due to this recession and the same teachers are blaming everything and anyone but themselves for the state of the set up in maths, which is that 20% of kids sitting the Leaving Cert, leave school without a basic competence in maths. I'd say you would struggle to find a more shocking statistic in Zimbabwe, Somalia or some other third world war torn state.

Last week it was the Gardai and this week it's the teachers, WHO IS COVERING THESE OBVIOUS ABSENCES FROM WORK for "conference work" while we have Gardai up and down the country converging for a conference last week and this week the teachers???

How does all this waffling and finger wagging impact on productivity in these sectors???

And you dont have any "vested interests" yourself?

Look, when a persons livelihood and that of their families comes under threat - especially when the perception to them is that they had no major role in causing the problems when those that did are walking away scot free - you are going to have people gathering in groups and doing what they can, if they can to protect their lifestyle.
I have no doubt you would do the same given the choice.

However, as you and others rightly point out, the country is almost broke living off the kindness of our neighbours. Cuts have to be made. That doesnt however mean that they cant at least be made with some level of co-operation with this that will be effected.
Again the counties eyes are moved towards the public versus private - employed versus unemployed etc and while these groups obviously have their role to play you have to look towards the elite in society to look for where the changes need to be made - at least for the optics of the situation.
The politicians still putting their own mates on the myriad of boards out there who do absolutely NOTHING for the citizen. The rich and still powerful who have the ears of the politicians and the lawmakers by the looks of it.
I feel happier giving another 2% of my insurance cost to cover quinn if I know the quinn family wealth has been used to cover as much as possible of the cash required but I know this hasnt been done.
I'll be happier to give up another 10-20 hell even 30% of my pay when I see the people ultimately responsible - who have broken the laws doing time and living off the very minimal of cash they can.
I'll be happier if we see major reductions in our political classes and the amount of higher paid directors and chiefs of public industry.
I'll be happier if the cost of living is brought down and jobs become the number one priority in this economy.
Until that time, as someone above has stated I'll do my bit to reduce costs, try my best to change attitudes and harrass the politicians I have voted for to bring about this change, including proper performance management in the public sector.
At the same time, I'll do what I can within the law to ensure that my wages are cut as little as possible - like any person, I believe, would do.

midlandsmissus · 27-04-2011 11:00PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

All new entrants to teaching this will start at 10% than those who started last year,even if they could get work.Primary teacching is a 3 year course.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforTeachers/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

We've all (anyone with a degree) spent 3-4 years in college dirt broke. Everyone has put in their dues. 28k is a very good salary. Accountants start on roughly 20k.

Teachers, Bankers, and Job Security

Comments