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Unbelievable - Quinn insurance bailout levy

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  • #62
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    jmayo wrote: »
    Well if we are socialising their losses, I reckon we can also start socialising what is left of their wealth.
    stone roses wrote: »
    its time to make a stand thats it no more!we need to fight back, no point in ringing joe and crying down the phone, we need real action now!!!

    What do you all reckon to a pool party in a nice little mansion on the outskirts of Ballyconnell? Weather permitting of course, but I think we deserve it. Of course I'm sure we'd be arrested and charged for 'socialising' in that way


  • #63
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    I heard on newstalk at lunchtime that the last debt that an insurance levy was brought in to pay off was paid off in the mid 1990's but the government just continued to collect it


  • #64
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    jmayo wrote: »

    What angers me is we as a nation, our regulatory authorities, our company governance authorities learned a lesson over 30 years ago about letting people in insurance get involved in banking. :mad:
    Yet it was allowed happen all over again.
    .

    Oh don't worry jmayo, we paid Nyberg handsomely to tell us what went wrong so it doesn't happen again


  • #65
    amen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    No competitor will touch Quinn Insurance while it has a reserving shortfal

    I don't think that is a true statement. It is my understanding that the reserves have been used as guarantees for loans made by other companies in the Quinn group. If those loans were called in then there would be a reserve issue with Quinn Insurance.

    Those loans though may be due to Anglo which we now own and if they were defaulted we would then have to provide extra funding to the bank.

    Of course none of this would have happened if people in Quinn weren't greedy.

    They could just have taken the reserves put on a nice long term deposit and made several millions each year.


  • #66
    DoesNotCompute
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭DoesNotCompute


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    Customers have already paid up for something in the region of €1 billion for their existing policies. By shutting Quinn down, you're waving good bye to that (at least a decent portion of it).

    Tough luck.


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  • #67
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    A great man named John Templeton once said that "minds are like parachutes, they only function correctly when they're open". By resorting to name-calling, you've clearly decided that you have no interest in trying to figure things out, or learn the truth. I'll spell it out to you. If you let the Quinn Group go, you drag down Anglo Irish Bank. If you let Anglo Irish Bank go, you take down the rest of the Irish banking system.
    You have absolutely no basis for suggesting that, and the reason that you have absolutely no basis for saying that is because the last year for which we have accounts for Quinn was in 2008, so we do not know what sort of dividend might arise back to the Irish exchequer; on the face of it, the returns would appear very small - certainly not likely to bridge the €2bn gap in any meaningful way.

    I am glad to see that you appear to have dropped the ridiculous notion that Quinn are systemic to Ireland, however, you now need to drop the ridiculous notion that they cannot be let go, and have their accounts sold on.


  • #68
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    jmayo wrote: »
    No but he did make the decisions to try and buy a bank.
    He also made the decision to use the insurance company funds to try and keep the rest of his empire afloat.
    He made the decisions to divert funds from his insurance company which could possibly have meant the customers of the insurance company were not adequately covered.
    Added to this he and his family are walking away from their huge debts to Anglo and by extension the debts they have dumped on us the taxpayers.

    So please forgive me for not having much respect for the guy.

    And I know since you would be from the ff side of the house you wouldn't have much respect for the current government. :rolleyes:
    I can see why they are having to bail out one of the primary insurance companies in the country.
    This mess was created long before this week.
    I await some braying from the Cork messiah and from mr amnesia from Blancherstown. :rolleyes:

    What angers me is we as a nation, our regulatory authorities, our company governance authorities learned a lesson over 30 years ago about letting people in insurance get involved in banking. :mad:
    Yet it was allowed happen all over again.

    Also what angers me is that quinn and his family dump their gambling losses on us.

    No wonder he only played cards for less than €5 every Tuesday night as we can now plainly see how sh** he was at it.
    Sorry, this has nothing to do with the thread, or the issue as to why Minister Noonan is about to visit this expense on the Irish public when he can easily decide to refuse to bridge the shortfall and let the company go from there.

    Minister Noonan is afraid. He is afraid of the idea that he is going to contribute to 4000 job losses, and clinging to the notion that he can 'make it back'. Is this, too, going to be the cheapest bailout in history?


  • #69
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    amen wrote: »
    I don't think that is a true statement. It is my understanding that the reserves have been used as guarantees for loans made by other companies in the Quinn group. If those loans were called in then there would be a reserve issue with Quinn Insurance.
    Do you have a link for that?


  • #70
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    later10 wrote: »
    I am glad to see that you appear to have dropped the ridiculous notion that Quinn are systemic to Ireland, however, you now need to drop the ridiculous notion that they cannot be let go, and have their accounts sold on.

    If he tried he could back up his assertion with reference to the papers
    A collapse of Quinn Insurance would clearly be of "systemic'' importance to the Quinn Group, but also to Ireland, as it employs 2,800 staff, according to its last set of financial results. The sheer size of Quinn Insurance is one of the reasons the Quinn empire is facing such difficulties at present

    But then you'd have many references to back up your supposition that anglo was systemic. It wouldn't make you right and it won't make him right


  • #71
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Laminations wrote: »
    your supposition that anglo was systemic. It wouldn't make you right and it won't make him right
    I suppose that Anglo is systemic? what? Define systemic. Systemic is not defined in employment terms.


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  • #72
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    You have absolutely no basis for suggesting that, and the reason that you have absolutely no basis for saying that is because the last year for which we have accounts for Quinn was in 2008, so we do not know what sort of dividend might arise back to the Irish exchequer; on the face of it, the returns would appear very small - certainly not likely to bridge the €2bn gap in any meaningful way.
    Of course I do. The Quinn Group owe €1.3 billion to Anglo. If you wind the Quinn Group up, you're going to be selling a huge amount of property assets at firesale prices, Anglo would almost certainly face losses. Even if Anglo Irish Bank wasn't afflicted by other bad loans, that alone could be enough to bring them down. When you talk about letting Anglo Irish go, you then go onto start stiffing the likes of ordinary bank deposit holders (ordinary business, individuals, etc), and the likes of AIB, BOI, Irish Permanent, etc.
    later10 wrote: »
    I am glad to see that you appear to have dropped the ridiculous notion that Quinn are systemic to Ireland, however, you now need to drop the ridiculous notion that they cannot be let go, and have their accounts sold on.
    Have you read anything I have written? The only reason Liberty Mutual have agreed to takeover Quinn Insurance was because the Irish government have agreed to transfer the €640 million to the taxpayer.


  • #73
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    later10 wrote: »
    Minister Noonan is afraid. He is afraid of the idea that he is going to contribute to 4000 job losses, and clinging to the notion that he can 'make it back'. Is this, too, going to be the cheapest bailout in history?

    He is afraid because there are hypocrites waiting in the wings to pounce on him and blame him for having to deal with the consequences of FFs mismanagement and misjudgements. The hypocrites are making this decision more likely, the terrible decision that it is


  • #74
    Trampas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭Trampas


    It is currently 3% levy so probably be 5% soon.

    so remember that when your renewal comes in the door 5% is going to the gov


  • #75
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    I suppose that Anglo is systemic? what? Define systemic. Systemic is not defined in employment terms.
    No problem.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71808641&postcount=18
    We know that Irish Permanant provided €7.5 billion to Anglo around the time the guarantee was announced. By forcing Anglo into wind-down - Irish Permanent would have taken a massive loss on this loan, as they would have been made to get in line with every other creditor. Irish Permanent would certainly not have had the capital to sustain a write-down on this sum, so either the State would be forced into covering these losses, or Irish Permanent would go into wind-down as well. Who knows what kind of cascade effect we would have seen.


  • #76
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭touts


    It's just a disgrace how the Irish taxpayer is expected to bail out this golden circle again and again and again. Letting the Quinn Group collapse and putting Quinn his family and his management team in Jail would be a perfect way to send out a message that the new government will not tolerate the sort of reckless behaviour that the previous government promoted.

    Instead Kenny and his crowd are being led around like egits by the same mafia of civil servants who oversaw the last government.

    There is no hope for this country!


  • #77
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭touts


    Trampas wrote: »
    It is currently 3% levy so probably be 5% soon.

    so remember that when your renewal comes in the door 5% is going to the gov

    Is there not VAT on top of the insurance and levy? I'm pretty sure the robbing [EMAIL="b@$tards"]b@$tards[/EMAIL] I have my insurance with are charging me VAT.


  • #78
    oceanclub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Here's the thing I don't get; other characters like Fingleton, Seanie, etc, rightly received almost universal condemnation for their actions. Yet I see multiple Facebook groups in support of this guy, with people frothing at the mouth in his defence. What makes this guy special?

    P.


  • #79
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    Have you read anything I have written? The only reason Liberty Mutual have agreed to takeover Quinn Insurance was because the Irish government have agreed to transfer the €640 million to the taxpayer.

    But when Cardinal Asset Management made it's bid for EBS, requesting that it be indemnified the government scuppered the bid.

    Why should Liberty be indemnified and Cardinal not?

    My own view is that neither should be indemnified and Quinn's businesses (like the banks) should have been allowed to fail.

    Capitalism created this problem, let capitalism resolve the problem.


  • #80
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    touts wrote: »
    It's just a disgrace how the Irish taxpayer is expected to bail out this golden circle again and again and again. Letting the Quinn Group collapse and putting Quinn his family and his management team in Jail would be a perfect way to send out a message that the new government will not tolerate the sort of reckless behaviour that the previous government promoted.

    Instead Kenny and his crowd are being led around like egits by the same mafia of civil servants who oversaw the last government.

    There is no hope for this country!

    Sean Quinn, Seanie, Bernard McNamara, Derek Quinlan, Sean Dunne, Mansfield and all the rest of them should be exposed to the forces of capitalism.
    If they can't repay their debts, bankrupt 'em.

    This is a slow motion replay of Larry Goodman and Goodman International.


  • #81
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    touts wrote: »
    It's just a disgrace how the Irish taxpayer is expected to bail out this golden circle again and again and again. Letting the Quinn Group collapse and putting Quinn his family and his management team in Jail would be a perfect way to send out a message that the new government will not tolerate the sort of reckless behaviour that the previous government promoted.

    Instead Kenny and his crowd are being led around like egits by the same mafia of civil servants who oversaw the last government.

    There is no hope for this country!

    Its the final straw for me, I agree their is no hope for the country now, But im convinced there is a lot we dont know about this case, Its all very suspicious to me, Quinn was a good company, Its seems hard to believe he blew it all..


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  • #82
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    Of course I do. The Quinn Group owe €1.3 billion to Anglo. If you wind the Quinn Group up, you're going to be selling a huge amount of property assets at firesale prices, Anglo would almost certainly face losses.
    You don't really have any basis for musing on losses in this respect; little to nothing is known of these properties, but that many of them are not in Ireland. You don't even know the current viability of the business you are insisting must be saved, because there are no recent accounts. And Anglo has already made a €2bn provision for Quinn's debts on its books.

    We need to get away from this fear of letting Quinn Insurance fail. The group is not systemically crucial to the future of the Irish economy, there is no reason in fact as to why the group ought not be liquidated. This is about PR and the optimistic belief that money will eventually be recovered.


  • #83
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    No problem.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71808641&postcount=18
    I'm not asking for a definition of systemic, I'm asking the particular poster to describe what s/he means specifically in suggesting that I suppose that Anglo is systemic.


  • #84
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,604 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    touts wrote: »
    Is there not VAT on top of the insurance and levy? I'm pretty sure the robbing [EMAIL="b@$tards"]b@$tards[/EMAIL] I have my insurance with are charging me VAT.

    no, its a non VATable service


  • #85
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    You don't really have any basis for musing on losses in this respect; little to nothing is known of these properties, but that many of them are not in Ireland. You don't even know the current viability of the business you are insisting must be saved, because there are no recent accounts. And Anglo has already made a €2bn provision for Quinn's debts on its books.
    Yes I do. We have been told that Quinn Insurance has been loss making in 2009, massively so in 2010. The main cause of the losses is write-downs in the investment portfolio (i.e. property).
    later10 wrote: »
    The group is not systemically crucial to the future of the Irish economy, there is no reason in fact as to why the group ought not be liquidated.
    You cannot say this definitively.


  • #86
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    Yes I do. We have been told that Quinn Insurance has been loss making in 2009, massively so in 2010. The main cause of the losses is write-downs in the investment portfolio (i.e. property).
    And that's the company you wish to save from failure? Despite the fact that we have already made significant provisions for loss?


  • #87
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    And that's the company you wish to save from failure? Despite the fact that we have already made significant provisions for loss?
    hinault wrote: »
    Capitalism created this problem, let capitalism resolve the problem.
    For me, this isn't about one individual company, it's about the system. The amount of private debt out there is 2.5 times the size of the overall economy. When you have so much debt in what is essentially a small and closed system, once you start stiffing people, you begin to play a very dangerous game of whack-a-mole.

    The question is do you just let the bad institutions fail (wipe out savers, close banks, massive contraction in spending/GDP, possible depression) or do you try to take the pain slowly, over a longer period of time. I do not know which approach is best, but if the experience of every other country in the world tells us anything, it's that regardless of the approach, the correction is nasty.


  • #88
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    For me, this isn't about one individual company, it's about the system. The amount of private debt out there is 2.5 times the size of the overall economy. When you have so much debt in what is essentially a small and closed system, once you start stiffing people, you begin to play a very dangerous game of whack-a-mole.

    The question is do you just let the bad institutions fail (wipe out savers, close banks, massive contraction in spending/GDP, possible depression) or do you try to take the pain slowly, over a longer period of time. I do not know which approach is best, but if the experience of every other country in the world tells us anything, it's that regardless of the approach, the correction is nasty.


    I have some sympathy for that view, Rask.

    But we're nearly three years down the line from September 2008 Irish financial crisis (and almost 4 years on from August 2007 world financial crisis) and we're still trying to impose artificial solutions.


  • #89
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    later10 wrote: »
    I am glad to see that you appear to have dropped the ridiculous notion that Quinn are systemic to Ireland, however, you now need to drop the ridiculous notion that they cannot be let go, and have their accounts sold on.

    I think Ras' point is that many of Quinn's account holders, especially in the commerical sector, might not be able to afford a double premium payment. Another insurer might purchase the accounts, but that would be of no benefit to thoose customers, and might affect the viability of some companies. Perhaps that's why the government is willing to impose the levy?
    touts wrote: »
    It's just a disgrace how the Irish taxpayer is expected to bail out this golden circle again and again and again. Letting the Quinn Group collapse and putting Quinn his family and his management team in Jail would be a perfect way to send out a message that the new government will not tolerate the sort of reckless behaviour that the previous government promoted.

    No, it would send out the message that the new government has no respect for the rule of law, and justice in this country is capricious, and exercised on a whim, without legal basis. I realise that dragging Quinn et al off to prison would be hugely cathartic, not to mention popular, but we can't just go imposing penalties on people for actions that weren't necessarily illegal then they took them.


  • #90
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Einhard wrote: »
    I think Ras' point is that many of Quinn's account holders, especially in the commerical sector, might not be able to afford a double premium payment. Another insurer might purchase the accounts, but that would be of no benefit to thoose customers, and might affect the viability of some companies. Perhaps that's why the government is willing to impose the levy?
    How many companies? What level of cost? Which companies and how big of a bite does insurance take out of their income? Details, I'm a big fan of details, and I don't think anyone is willing to just accept a handwavy general excuse any more. It's our money, let's get a receipt.

    Besides, given how much these new customers would swell the accounts of other insurance companies next year, it wouldn't be too much to ask that they take them on board gratis for the remaining policy term if they sign an agreement to stick with the company for one year afterwards. Bit of legal tapdancing but quite doable.
    Einhard wrote: »
    No, it would send out the message that the new government has no respect for the rule of law, and justice in this country is capricious, and exercised on a whim, without legal basis.
    I keep seeing Bertie telling a tribunal about his confirmation money, for some reason...


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  • #91
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    For me, this isn't about one individual company, it's about the system. The amount of private debt out there is 2.5 times the size of the overall economy. When you have so much debt in what is essentially a small and closed system, once you start stiffing people, you begin to play a very dangerous game of whack-a-mole.
    I would call saving Quinn 'whacking a mole'. Why not, now save Quinn's debtors too?

    I hate glib comments like the one I am about to make, but this has to be nipped in the bud. The exchequer cannot, in a progressive capitalist society, be held accountable for non financially systemic private corporations.

    The group owe €2.8 billion to Anglo. Anglo have made provisions for €2.2bn. This leaves about €600m of a shortfall. We are being asked to provide something in the region of €620m to a loss making business in order that we might - hopefully, some day - get back that investment. We could lose a lot of money and never recover much at all. Does this make sense to you? does that appeal to your intelligence?

    There should be no illusion about this. This, if granted, will be a political decision. It is not compulsory, it has not been pre-determined by Fianna Fail. Minister Noonan can let Quinn go, he just needs balls to do it.


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