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Unbelievable - Quinn insurance bailout levy

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Comments

  • #32
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    If i have to pay another 2pc off my family...is Sean going to lose his filthy rich Cavan home ,his cars,his moneys,his properties, villas, holliday homes (yes,homeS), another hidden investments !??? I've kind of lost everything here and i am preparing my kids to leave NAMA republic when they will get a chance or until T2 won't be so busy !
    Is ridiculous that i have to pay for someone private mistakes.. becouse he's part of the "golden boys' circle" !!!

    S H A M E


  • #33
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    population wrote: »
    Why not set up a seperate insurance company to deal with the aforementioned 700000 customers with the money? Why does Quinn Insurance have to be the beneficiary? It is a failed business. It was precisely the same with the banking crisis. Rather than do something positive and affect real change the government just handed the strung out offenders more cash to go and gamble with without even a rap on the knuckles for their troubles.
    If you set up a new insurance company, transfer the existing business over to it, you would just be in the same position as you were with Quinn (i.e. your loss reserves would still be €640 million short).


  • #34
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    There is already such a 2% charge on all motor policies that goes into MIBI.
    so it'll be 4% now then?
    I'm not 100% sure, but yes, that appears to be the case.
    This levy will go to the Insurance Compensation Fund, which had not been collecting levies. I don't think it has anything to do with the MIBI, as far as I know that's a totally different levy. Someone more familiar with the insurance companies might confirm that.


  • #35
    erictheviking1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 160 ✭✭erictheviking1


    What I'd like to know is what happened to all the money we've been paying into the current insurance levy that we've all been paying since the 1980's???


  • #36
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    I'm not 100% sure, but yes, that appears to be the case.
    This levy will go to the Insurance Compensation Fund, which had not been collecting levies. I don't think it has anything to do with the MIBI, as far as I know that's a totally different levy. Someone more familiar with the insurance companies might confirm that.
    It's not just motor insurance, you pay the levy on all non-life policies.


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  • #37
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    Insurance (particularly at the commercial side) is really, really expensive. A lot of folks who have stumped up for their premiums simply would not be in a position to pay to take out a new policy.
    I'm saying that the books could be bought by other companies, who would continue to receive premiums from customers without customers noticing much difference. This happens with banks all the time, most recently with Anglo itself.
    Another thing you're forgetting is that the Quinn Group have taken out €1.2 billion in borrowings to fund the running of the overall group. If creditors are forced into taking write-downs, that could have all sorts of unforeseen consequences to the overall economy.
    Quinn's creditors are Anglo! We own Anglo, I'm saying that this is the reason why the levy will be accepted - we want to recover money. It has nothing to do with Quinn being systemic, it isn't systemic, it's our debtor.


  • #38
    DoesNotCompute
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭DoesNotCompute


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    Quinn Insurance is systematic to the Irish economy. According to their website, they have over 700,000 customers. If Quinn Insurance was allowed to fail, then 700,000 people could have their health and motor insurance invalidated, despite the fact many would have already paid a years worth of premiums in advance.

    It's a free market. There's plenty of other insurance providers that those 700,000 people can go to.


  • #39
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    I'm saying that the books could be bought by other companies, who would continue to receive premiums from customers without customers noticing much difference. This happens with banks all the time, most recently with Anglo itself.
    No competitor will touch Quinn Insurance while it has a reserving shortfall. Either the government fills it, or else we put Quinn Insurance into liquidation, which could mean canceled policies.
    later10 wrote: »
    Quinn's creditors are Anglo! We own Anglo, I'm saying that this is the reason why the levy will be accepted - we want to recover money. It has nothing to do with Quinn being systemic, it isn't systemic, it's our debtor.
    Exactly - we own Anglo, therefore stiffing Anglo is shooting ourselves in the foot.


  • #40
    Laminations
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    The problem is why should the ordinary person on the street suffer; they have paid their premiums, they've done nothing wrong. The big issue here is that the regulator and Central Bank stood by and allowed the Quinn Group to get itself into this mess. They learned nothing from the mess that ICI and PMPA created years ago and from what we have seen so far, nothing has been done to ensure that this can never happen again.

    Stop stop stop! If I break the law I don't get to blame the gardai for not stopping me. Yes they may have a case to answer but it's a separate issue to my actions, my responsibilities, my blame. We are not being asked to pay to cover the debts of the company, these are the debts of one man (and his family). Quinn needs to own his mistakes, and his family who shared in the profits should now share in the loses. But this is Ireland, Quinn and his family will go on living in luxury while the rest of us make up his shortfall.
    The homes and personal assets of Sean Quinn and his family will be beyond the reach of Anglo Irish Bank in its attempts to get repayment of €2.8 billion in loans, because no personal guarantees were given by the family as security on the borrowing.

    http://www.sbpost.ie/news/quinn-familys-personal-assets-beyond-anglos-reach-55810.html
    Disgraceful


  • #41
    View
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Why is anyone surprised?

    Do you really think the politicians were going to order to take the flak for ordering the closure of Quinn Insurance?

    That is the "great" thing about state ownership - decisions get made based, not on economic grounds, but on the basis of the likely fall-out in vote terms.


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  • #42
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Have we even paid off FF's PMPA levy yet ?

    It's beyond a joke that we are being forced to take on even more of other people's debts.

    Ah yes another story of an Insurance company owner (joe moore) who made a foray into banking, ran a very dodgy bank that went bust, was buddies with a ff leader (cj haughey), whose company was bailed out and the taxpayer/customers paid the cost of it over decades.

    And people claim that this latest banking disaster was due to lax regulation over the last 10 years.
    Check out Irish banking history and the names of joe moore, patrick gallagher, ken bates crop up.
    seanie fitz just took it to a new level.
    Qualitymark wrote: »
    Sean Quinn gambles on Anglo shares and loses his shirt, the citizens are made responsible for a stupendous loan to finance Anglo, Anglo thinks of buying Quinn's company, the citizens are taxed to pay for Quinn's gambling debts so Anglo will buy the company.

    Can't decide if I'm living in Alice's Adventures in the Looking-Glass, 1984, or Monty Python. Storm the Reality Towers! Retake the universe!

    Ehh correction sean quinn gambled, but it's our shirts that are lost.

    AFAIK according to reports from the last week his families assets may not be touched.

    Haven't you copped onto how this works.
    The quinns, kellys, fitzpatricks, fingeltons, ronans, dunnes, mulryans, mcnamaras, quinlans all gambled and yes they lost some of their wealth.
    They may no longer be billionaires, only millionaires. :rolleyes:

    Any of their wealth that they despersed to family members, any that was not directly tied up in the companies that went bust, but buried in their myriad of limited companies can't be touched.

    But the plebs who pay taxes here don't have that luxury.
    The so called wealth we earn every year can be taxed to pay for their losses.
    Really sweet deal if you are one of the above.

    And to boot we are being blamed for their f***ups.
    Shure wasn't it all our faults is the mantra being pedalled by a fair few commentators and the apologists for the connected ones.

    Hell we hear that mantra often enough around here. :rolleyes:

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #43
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    It's a free market. There's plenty of other insurance providers that those 700,000 people can go to.
    Customers have already paid up for something in the region of €1 billion for their existing policies. By shutting Quinn down, you're waving good bye to that (at least a decent portion of it).


  • #44
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    No competitor will touch Quinn Insurance while it has a reserving shortfall.
    I'm not suggesting anyone buy the whole company, for the last time, other insurance companies would gladly take individual accounts off Quinn's hands. Sure, they would be cherrypicking, but that's life, that's capitalism, move on.
    we own Anglo, therefore stiffing Anglo is shooting ourselves in the foot.
    That is presuming we would recover any significant money from Quinn Insurance, which I'm not convinced about. But that is the government's thinking, yes. It has nothing to do with systemic importance, it is to do with the hope of recovering money.


  • #45
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Laminations wrote: »
    Stop stop stop! If I break the law I don't get to blame the gardai for not stopping me. Yes they may have a case to answer but it's a separate issue to my actions, my responsibilities, my blame. We are not being asked to pay to cover the debts of the company, these are the debts of one man (and his family). Quinn needs to own his mistakes, and his family who shared in the profits should now share in the loses. But this is Ireland, Quinn and his family will go on living in luxury while the rest of us make up his shortfall.


    http://www.sbpost.ie/news/quinn-familys-personal-assets-beyond-anglos-reach-55810.html
    Disgraceful

    It is at times like this I do hope we default and we do have riots on the streets, because it is the only way that the people in this country finally wake up.

    The whole ideas of responsibility and accountability have gone out the window.
    The whole idea of capitalism where risk and reward go hand and hand has been turned on it's head.
    Or at least it has for some people.
    For most of us if our business goes tits up we are crucified.
    For most of us if we can't repay our one major loan i.e. mortgage we risk the loss of our home.
    On the other hand these people can run up billions in debts, but basically still carry on as if nothing has happened.
    After all some of them might have to send their kids to private schools which of course won't be affected by the cuts in public education, some of which may be necessary because of their losses. :rolleyes:

    A well connected tranch of people in this country has the luxury of affectively gambling, collecting the winnings if all goes well, but dumping the losses for those gambles on the laps of the citizens of this state if things go bad.
    Taxpayers, present and future, will primarily bear the brunt of it, but to some extent all people (rich, poor, employed, unemployed, young, old) who avail of services in this state will suffer.

    Meanwhile the culpable rich connected ones hang onto a very sizable portion of their wealth.

    Well if we are socialising their losses, I reckon we can also start socialising what is left of their wealth.

    What really makes my blood boil is the fact that some gobsh*** will still be around lauding quinn and what he and his family have achieved.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #46
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Great.

    We're now subsidising jobs in the insurance sector, banking sector, public sector, public sector pension................:mad::mad::mad:


  • #47
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    jmayo wrote: »
    What really makes my blood boil is the fact that some gobsh*** will still be around lauding quinn and what he and his family have achieved.
    Quinn did not make this decision himself. It's out of his hands by now. I have more respect for him than I do for anyone in government supporting this.


  • #48
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Ah sure isn't Sean Quinn a great man, man of the people and all that.
    It should be mandatory for the levy/tax to be named after the great man himself, on every insurance form and contract.

    What. A. Country.


  • #49
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Whooops just been looking at Meteor's earnings summary... down 19% on the previous. Why not give them a handout as well Minister Noonan!


  • #50
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,604 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    Customers have already paid up for something in the region of €1 billion for their existing policies. By shutting Quinn down, you're waving good bye to that (at least a decent portion of it).

    so?

    That's the risk you take with any purchase, yes it is unfortunate but it should not be simply a case of more socialised debt for the sake of it.


  • #51
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    The problem is why should the ordinary person on the street suffer; they have paid their premiums, they've done nothing wrong. The big issue here is that the regulator and Central Bank stood by and allowed the Quinn Group to get itself into this mess. They learned nothing from the mess that ICI and PMPA created years ago and from what we have seen so far, nothing has been done to ensure that this can never happen again.

    Everyone will suffer (not just the customers!) by being made to pay while the Regulator/Central bank walk away yet again.


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  • #52
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Why not just nationalise so we could use all of the companies profits to fund this scheme, then wind the company down in an orderly fashion.

    Using taxpayers money to guarantee private corporations ability to make a profit is disgusting


  • #53
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    Quinn did not make this decision himself. It's out of his hands by now. I have more respect for him than I do for anyone in government supporting this.
    Respect for Sean Quinn? In any other country, using the invested premiums of an insurance company as a personal slush fund would have you in jail.


  • #54
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    Respect for Sean Quinn? In any other country, using the invested premiums of an insurance company as a personal slush fund would have you in jail.
    It's not that I have inherent respect for Quinn, I'm saying that I would have more respect for a man who drove his own car into a lake than a man who drove his own car into a lake and made everyone else pay for it. Sean Quinn is not making this request, nor will he be approving it. Michael Noonan will be approving it.


  • #55
    stephendevlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭stephendevlin


    In the next year or so you wont be able to afford insurance so theres no need to worry! ;)


  • #56
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Why not just nationalise so we could use all of the companies profits to fund this scheme, then wind the company down in an orderly fashion.

    Using taxpayers money to guarantee private corporations ability to make a profit is disgusting
    There's a can of worms, right there. A state-sponsored insurance company might make it difficult for private insurers to operate (see the VHI). You could also have the company issuing insurance on the basis of political decisions, rather than economic ones. There might be issues with staff wanting to unionize and gain more unfavourable contracts.


  • #57
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    It's not that I have inherent respect for Quinn, I'm saying that I would have more respect for a man who drove his own car into a lake than a man who drove his own car into a lake and made everyone else pay for it. Sean Quinn is not making this request, nor will he be approving it. Michael Noonan will be approving it.
    This is the kind of attitude that is why Ireland will never learn from its mistakes. We all love the cute hoor, the guy who managed to out-fox everyone else, even if it means impoverishing everyone else. "Yerra, look at all the jobs he created, shur isn't he a grand old fella".

    Can I remind you that Sean Quinn owes $4-6 billion in unsecured debt to Anglo Irish Bank? Anglo have already written much of this off and admitted there is nothing they can do to get this back. Ultimately, we will bear the brunt of this largesse.


  • #58
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Raskolnikov wrote: »
    This is the kind of attitude that is why Ireland will never learn from its mistakes.
    Wrong. There is nothing wrong with letting a business fail. It is the opposite position which refuses to learn from its mistakes. I personally have no respect for the intelligence of an individual who would put forward such an absurd suggestion as that Quinn must be saved, or that it is 'systemic'. This is typical of a lack of confidence in Irish business, a fear of failure, and entreprenurial trepidation in general which is perfectly happy to sit back and enjoy state bailouts.


  • #59
    stone roses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭stone roses


    its time to make a stand thats it no more!we need to fight back, no point in ringing joe and crying down the phone, we need real action now!!!


  • #60
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    later10 wrote: »
    Quinn did not make this decision himself. It's out of his hands by now. I have more respect for him than I do for anyone in government supporting this.

    No but he did make the decisions to try and buy a bank.
    He also made the decision to use the insurance company funds to try and keep the rest of his empire afloat.
    He made the decisions to divert funds from his insurance company which could possibly have meant the customers of the insurance company were not adequately covered.
    Added to this he and his family are walking away from their huge debts to Anglo and by extension the debts they have dumped on us the taxpayers.

    So please forgive me for not having much respect for the guy.

    And I know since you would be from the ff side of the house you wouldn't have much respect for the current government. :rolleyes:
    I can see why they are having to bail out one of the primary insurance companies in the country.
    This mess was created long before this week.
    I await some braying from the Cork messiah and from mr amnesia from Blancherstown. :rolleyes:

    What angers me is we as a nation, our regulatory authorities, our company governance authorities learned a lesson over 30 years ago about letting people in insurance get involved in banking. :mad:
    Yet it was allowed happen all over again.

    Also what angers me is that quinn and his family dump their gambling losses on us.

    No wonder he only played cards for less than €5 every Tuesday night as we can now plainly see how sh** he was at it.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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  • #61
    Raskolnikov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,148 ✭✭✭✭Raskolnikov


    later10 wrote: »
    Wrong. There is nothing wrong with letting a business fail. It is the opposite position which refuses to learn from its mistakes. I personally have no respect for the intelligence of an individual who would put forward such an absurd suggestion as that Quinn must be saved, or that it is 'systemic'. This is typical of a lack of confidence in Irish business, a fear of failure, and entreprenurial trepidation in general which is perfectly happy to sit back and enjoy state bailouts.
    A great man named John Templeton once said that "minds are like parachutes, they only function correctly when they're open". By resorting to name-calling, you've clearly decided that you have no interest in trying to figure things out, or learn the truth. I'll spell it out to you. If you let the Quinn Group go, you drag down Anglo Irish Bank. If you let Anglo Irish Bank go, you take down the rest of the Irish banking system.


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