Irish Rail's use of discretion for issuing fines

ongarboy · 29-03-2011 10:57AM #1

I'm interested in IE's use of discretion when it comes to issuing fines for passengers with incorrect or no tickets. I was on the Dublin Cork 7pm train last Friday evening and I was sitting near a girl who had booked a 10 euro fare for an earlier off peak service. She decided to join her friends on the later and more expensive 7pm service instead. When the inspector came around checking tickets, he informed her that her ticket was not valid on this service and that she should have changed it at the ticket counter before boarding along with paying the appropriate fare difference. He ordered her to pay the difference and then said for everyone to hear "By rights, I should be fining you 100 euro as well for not having the correct ticket" but let her off that.

Is it fair that IE staff can fine one person and let another off for committing the same offence? I would have thought they have to follow a consistent approach to fines or else anyone could claim unfair treatment if they were issued the full fine?? The fact someone was let off in such a public, audible manner would seem risky IMO. BTW, I'm all for everyone paying the correct fares but for her sake, I'm glad she wasn't fined as I think she was just a college student who probably is struggling with cash anyway so I don't begrudge her getting off in this case.

Cookie_Monster · 29-03-2011 11:14AM

Discretion like that should not be allowed. Its unfair on anyone who is issued a full fine for the same offence, the inspector should not simply be allowed pick and choose who gets off and who has to pay the fine.
Sounds to me like the inspector fell for the old "pretty young girl" distraction and didn't want to be seen as mean to her...

Losty Dublin · 29-03-2011 11:50AM

Sigh, here we go again with another fine fight....

This match is scheduled for two falls, two submissions or a knock out and is for the heavyweight fine championship!

In the red corner; hailing from Heuston station and wearing black and tan trunks, the evil ticket inspector. (boo, hiss, boooooo)

And in the blue corner, from Dublin, some poor harrassed customer who didn't know they were dodging the fare and should/shouldn't be let away with it (yaay)

Seconds out, round 292262 on Boards.ie

:D

-Chris- · 29-03-2011 11:54AM

Sooooo...

ongarboy wrote: »

Is it fair that IE staff can fine one person and let another off for committing the same offence? I would have thought they have to follow a consistent approach to fines or else anyone could claim unfair treatment if they were issued the full fine?? The fact someone was let off in such a public, audible manner would seem risky IMO.

but...

ongarboy wrote: »

BTW, I'm all for everyone paying the correct fares but for her sake, I'm glad she wasn't fined as I think she was just a college student who probably is struggling with cash anyway so I don't begrudge her getting off in this case.

So from the sounds of it, you think there are disadvantages in showing discretion, but you're glad they showed discretion in this instance?

Discretion is a two edged sword. I wish there was less discretion in many things in life, but in the instance of a simple mistake like this then discretion will be appreciated hugely.

I'm glad there is discretion sometimes, but I also think it's important to make sure it's as transparent as possible so that it's not open to abuse, and so there's some semblance of consistency.

God that sounds wishy-washy. I hope someone will show some discretion and not call me up on it.

Victor · 29-03-2011 06:00PM

Was it an ordinary ticket inspector or RPU?

Did he have any FCNs left in his book?

Did the inspector recognise the passenger as someone that typically does have the right ticket?

Did the inspector have hte niggling feeling that both tickets were the same price?

dowlingm · 29-03-2011 07:21PM

Wasn't the ticket checked on the platform? It's been a while since I took a train ex Heuston so maybe they've given up on that?

foggy_lad · 30-03-2011 01:02AM

dowlingm wrote: »

Wasn't the ticket checked on the platform? It's been a while since I took a train ex Heuston so maybe they've given up on that?

There is no real system in Heuston for checking tickets except for putting it through the automatic barriers but for most trains these are simply opened for passengers due to the way trains are boarded, hundreds of people are let build up at the gates then a few minutes before departure the staff have to just allow everyone through as checking all tickets would delay the departure.

ongarboy · 30-03-2011 10:54AM

Victor wrote: »

Was it an ordinary ticket inspector or RPU?

Did he have any FCNs left in his book?

Did the inspector recognise the passenger as someone that typically does have the right ticket?

Did the inspector have hte niggling feeling that both tickets were the same price?

I don't know how to tell an RPU but he seemed like your regular inspector. Don't know what FCNs are either. I got impression he didn't recognise her and she had to ask her 3 mates to help chip in to pay the surcharge so I don't think she knowingly tried to chance a cheap fare for herself, just that she genuinely wasn't aware of the T&Cs (like a lot of people outside this forum!). I think the inspector acknowledged that hence the discretion.

Dowlingm - you raise a good point - there was no-one checking the tickets at the gate for the Cork train which is the first time I've seen that so I guess this allowed her to (unknowingly or otherwise) get by that check.

BenShermin · 30-03-2011 02:32PM

ongarboy wrote: »

I don't think she knowingly tried to chance a cheap fare for herself, just that she genuinely wasn't aware of the T&Cs (like a lot of people outside this forum!). I think the inspector acknowledged that hence the discretion.

I'm really getting tired of these threads:(.

I think the fact that AlexSmart was refered to as a troll on another I didn't realise the rules thread just shows how much these threads actually contribute to the C&T forum. Nevertheless I suppose it's good to bring up the fact that some people are getting away with it when they should be fined.

Anyway it is clearly laid out in the terms and conditions which you actually have to click to accept that you have read them, that you MUST travel on the service you've booked.

Changes and cancellations

Passengers wishing to travel on the same day, but on an alternative train other than the time shown on their ticket, can do so provided seats are available, by paying a surcharge. The surcharge of up to €40 should be paid at the booking office before boarding the train. If a booking office is not open the surcharge must be paid on board the train. All tickets are only valid for travel on the dates printed on the ticket only. Failure to produce a valid ticket, appropriate ID or surcharge where necessary will result in a fine of €100 together with the relevant unpaid fare

I think the girl should have been fined €100, a surcharge and the extra fare, no ifs no buts. She clearly couldn't be bothered to read the T&Cs and also couldn't be bothered to ask IÉ staff for info regarding travelling on another service before she boarded it.

murphyd · 26-04-2011 11:15AM

Last summer I was on the train to work from Drumcondra to Pearse, and when I got to Pearse I realised somehow I'd managed to lose my ticket. I went straight up to the ticket inspector when I got off and told him the situation, he told me I should find it or he'd have to fine me. After some more frantic searching I couldn't find it so he issued me with a €100 fine. I was very polite to him and asked did I have any leg to stand on or was the fine final, he told me I should appeal within the next few days. So I did, I sent a letter to Pearse station and explained what had happened, I even gave the exact time I had bought my ticket so they could confirm it with the cctv (there's a camera right above the machine I paid at). I never heard anything back and suddenly the other day, on my birthday, I received a court summons. I rang up Pearse station this morning, they received my appeal and claim they sent me out a letter rejecting it, but I never got such a letter.
Basically I'm in a situation where I paid the full fare but lost my ticket, if they won't accept my appeal then who's would they accept? They claim they sent out a letter that I never received, when I told them this they claimed I should have contacted them when I had no reply, but how am I to know what the whole process is they go through, how long it will take for them to send a reply, I didn't even expect to receive one to be honest and was pretty relieved when I never did.
The worrying thing is that my best hope is that I'll have to pay a larger fine than before which I cannot afford as I'm a post graduate student who's lost his funding, so while most of the country is complaining about not working and only getting €200 a week in dole money, I work 60 hours a week and get nothing. Like I said it was my birthday when I got the summons so now I've put my birthday money that my parents gave me aside for when I'll inevitably have to pay a much larger fine.
I just can't understand why I'm being punished when I've done nothing wrong. Does anyone have any advice for me?

schemingbohemia · 26-04-2011 11:50AM

murphyd wrote: »

Last summer I was on the train to work from Drumcondra to Pearse, and when I got to Pearse I realised somehow I'd managed to lose my ticket. I went straight up to the ticket inspector when I got off and told him the situation, he told me I should find it or he'd have to fine me. After some more frantic searching I couldn't find it so he issued me with a €100 fine. I was very polite to him and asked did I have any leg to stand on or was the fine final, he told me I should appeal within the next few days. So I did, I sent a letter to Pearse station and explained what had happened, I even gave the exact time I had bought my ticket so they could confirm it with the cctv (there's a camera right above the machine I paid at). I never heard anything back and suddenly the other day, on my birthday, I received a court summons. I rang up Pearse station this morning, they received my appeal and claim they sent me out a letter rejecting it, but I never got such a letter.
Basically I'm in a situation where I paid the full fare but lost my ticket, if they won't accept my appeal then who's would they accept? They claim they sent out a letter that I never received, when I told them this they claimed I should have contacted them when I had no reply, but how am I to know what the whole process is they go through, how long it will take for them to send a reply, I didn't even expect to receive one to be honest and was pretty relieved when I never did.
The worrying thing is that my best hope is that I'll have to pay a larger fine than before which I cannot afford as I'm a post graduate student who's lost his funding, so while most of the country is complaining about not working and only getting €200 a week in dole money, I work 60 hours a week and get nothing. Like I said it was my birthday when I got the summons so now I've put my birthday money that my parents gave me aside for when I'll inevitably have to pay a much larger fine.
I just can't understand why I'm being punished when I've done nothing wrong. Does anyone have any advice for me?

You did do something wrong, you lost your ticket. Whilst I don't doubt that you had bought a ticket, the number of people who chance their arms with similar excuses mean fines need to be issued.

What you should do is contact Irish Rail and offer to pay the €100 fine now to avoid the expense of a court date for both sides, this may work. You should act quickly.

corktina · 26-04-2011 12:01PM

you cant really expect them to take your word for it when there are so many liars out there. Im afraid you'll have to live with it.

goingnowhere · 26-04-2011 12:09PM

You can imagine the number one excuse is "I bought a ticket, its here somewhere......"

Could you produce a ticket when requested => No

murphyd · 26-04-2011 12:21PM

Yes, thank you. I'm aware that I wasn't able to produce a ticket but there's an appeals process for a reason and I followed it. They chose to reject it, fine, but I never got any indication of a rejection. So some of you might say I should pay the €100 fine and just consider myself unlucky for having lost the tciket, but that's not what's happening, because their letter never reached me I now face court with a possible fine of several thousand and possible jail time. Why should I have to live with that? The best outcome is a hefty enough fine. Now how is that fair, and does anyone have any useful advice for me?

corktina · 26-04-2011 12:41PM

how many people do you think use the "i didnt get the letter" excuse,? No doubt you didnt but do you think a Judge will beleive you?

DWCommuter · 26-04-2011 12:47PM

murphyd wrote: »

Yes, thank you. I'm aware that I wasn't able to produce a ticket but there's an appeals process for a reason and I followed it. They chose to reject it, fine, but I never got any indication of a rejection. So some of you might say I should pay the €100 fine and just consider myself unlucky for having lost the tciket, but that's not what's happening, because their letter never reached me I now face court with a possible fine of several thousand and possible jail time. Why should I have to live with that? The best outcome is a hefty enough fine. Now how is that fair, and does anyone have any useful advice for me?

You could try fighting the court proceedings on the basis of the appeals process failing to function in a fair and equitable manner. In that scenario, I suggest you write to IEs solicitors informing them that you are dissatisfied with how the company have dealt with the matter and that you are prepared to fight it in court. In addition, request written confirmation that they received your appeal (they have already confirmed to you by phone, that they received it) and look for proof of postage for their reply. (which you claim you did not receive) Make sure your correspondence is done by registered post.

Ultimately in their eyes you were travelling without a valid ticket. If you are genuine, I suggest pushing the CCTV angle as well (though whether the footage is still available is another matter.) Be polite and articulate. I can't guarantee this will work, but its the only option open to you if you aren't prepared to try and pay the initial €100 fine.

DWCommuter · 26-04-2011 12:54PM

corktina wrote: »

how many people do you think use the "i didnt get the letter" excuse,? No doubt you didnt but do you think a Judge will beleive you?

In fairness corktina, in a process like this both sides run the risk of losing. The OP followed the appeals process, but it appears that IE made a mistake by not ensuring the result of that appeal reached the OP. IMO a court could look for proof of postage from IE, if this issue is put up as a defense. If they can't provide it, its very possible the case could be struck out. I've seen it happen.

Of course this is not legal advice, just an opinion.

murphyd · 26-04-2011 12:55PM

DWCommuter wrote: »

You could try fighting the court proceedings on the basis of the appeals process failing to function in a fair and equitable manner. In that scenario, I suggest you write to IEs solicitors informing them that you are dissatisfied with how the company have dealt with the matter and that you are prepared to fight it in court. In addition, request written confirmation that they received your appeal (they have already confirmed to you by phone, that they received it) and look for proof of postage for their reply. (which you claim you did not receive) Make sure your correspondence is done by registered post.

Ultimately in their eyes you were travelling without a valid ticket. If you are genuine, I suggest pushing the CCTV angle as well (though whether the footage is still available is another matter.) Be polite and articulate. I can't guarantee this will work, but its the only option open to you if you aren't prepared to try and pay the initial €100 fine.

Thanks DWCommuter, I'd pay the initial fine of €100 just to avoid going to court but I'm afraid it might be a bit late for that now, someone at Irish Rail is looking into that for me. When I spoke to them they did confirm they got my letter, and the one they sent to me was sent by regular post so there'd be no record of it. I'm gonna take your advice as it is an awful way to handle things, I mean if you send an appeal rejection letter saying pay or go to court, surely that's important enough to send by recorded post considering the next letter they'll get is a summons? I'll also try and get my hands on the CCTV footage.
Thanks again.

DWCommuter · 26-04-2011 01:00PM

murphyd wrote: »

Thanks DWCommuter, I'd pay the initial fine of €100 just to avoid going to court but I'm afraid it might be a bit late for that now, someone at Irish Rail is looking into that for me. When I spoke to them they did confirm they got my letter, and the one they sent to me was sent by regular post so there'd be no record of it. I'm gonna take your advice as it is an awful way to handle things, I mean if you send an appeal rejection letter saying pay or go to court, surely that's important enough to send by recorded post considering the next letter they'll get is a summons? I'll also try and get my hands on the CCTV footage.
Thanks again.

Just a quick add on. It is very likely that Irish Rail will accept the €100 payment with a small admin fee to avoid court. If you go to court, there is always the risk you may get a bigger fine. Best of luck and report back to let us know how you get on.

corktina · 26-04-2011 01:38PM

DWCommuter wrote: »

. If you go to court, there is always the risk you may get a bigger fine. .

costs might be a factor too possibly

Victor · 26-04-2011 08:18PM

Go into their office in Pearse Station. Explain what happened, that you didn't get the letter. Ask for a copy of the letter there and then. Offer to pay the fine and the fare, with the money there in your hand.

If you are a postgrad working for Trinity you should be able to take part in their Taxsaver scheme.

dazmetron · 26-04-2011 09:18PM

Victor wrote: »

If you are a postgrad working for Trinity you should be able to take part in their Taxsaver scheme.

The problem with this is that postgrads aren't officially working and paying tax unless they are being paid as for teaching etc. Their basic funding is classed as a studentship and is tax exempt so the Taxsaver scheme isn't any use when there is no tax paid that could be claimed back

murphyd · 27-04-2011 10:34AM

I rang back Pearse station and was told that it's too late and this is all my fault, I should have talked to them when I never received a reply to my appeal. I know I was being naive, I thought my appeal letter was good enough to convince them. Also very soon after I sent in my appeal I was in a bad accident, spent a few weeks in hospital and then in bed at home, so nothing could have been further from my mind than the whole train ticket issue and I completely forgot about it.
They said they can talk to their solicitors and maybe I won't have to go to court but the fine will be increased to at least €210.
Whichever way you look at it their system is punishing the people who come forward and tell them they lost their tickets, it's the dishonest people who probably always far evade that would know not to go to the ticket inspector and instead try and sneak out. I had thought that being completely honest about it was the best option, I see now that dishonesty is the way to go, whether it means sneaking out or giving a fake name. All the statistics Irish rail give about how much money they make on fines and how many people are fined, I wonder how many of these people actually lost their tickets and were upfront and honest about it and then punished for it.
Irish rail shouldn't be allowed to dictate everything here, surely I should have some sort of leg to stand on? The thing is I can't afford the €210, but I really can't afford to go to court. Any more suggestions?

schemingbohemia · 27-04-2011 10:50AM

murphyd wrote: »

I rang back Pearse station and was told that it's too late and this is all my fault, I should have talked to them when I never received a reply to my appeal. I know I was being naive, I thought my appeal letter was good enough to convince them. Also very soon after I sent in my appeal I was in a bad accident, spent a few weeks in hospital and then in bed at home, so nothing could have been further from my mind than the whole train ticket issue and I completely forgot about it.
They said they can talk to their solicitors and maybe I won't have to go to court but the fine will be increased to at least €210.
Whichever way you look at it their system is punishing the people who come forward and tell them they lost their tickets, it's the dishonest people who probably always far evade that would know not to go to the ticket inspector and instead try and sneak out. I had thought that being completely honest about it was the best option, I see now that dishonesty is the way to go, whether it means sneaking out or giving a fake name. All the statistics Irish rail give about how much money they make on fines and how many people are fined, I wonder how many of these people actually lost their tickets and were upfront and honest about it and then punished for it.
Irish rail shouldn't be allowed to dictate everything here, surely I should have some sort of leg to stand on? The thing is I can't afford the €210, but I really can't afford to go to court. Any more suggestions?

Get over yourself, you lost the ticket, man up and take the fine. Have you seen the posters at Pearse where people who have been taken to court get much higher fines?

murphyd · 27-04-2011 11:11AM

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Get over yourself, you lost the ticket, man up and take the fine. Have you seen the posters at Pearse where people who have been taken to court get much higher fines?

I would have taken the fine, but it was not an option because I never got the appeal rejection I just got a court summons. I followed the right avenues yet because I never got the rejection letter, which is hardly my fault, my best hope is that now I can pay an increased fine but was told I'm still probably gonna have to go to court. I'm asking for advice, if you don't have anything useful to say don't bother.

schemingbohemia · 27-04-2011 11:15AM

murphyd wrote: »

I would have taken the fine, but it was not an option because I never got the appeal rejection I just got a court summons. I followed the right avenues yet because I never got the rejection letter, which is hardly my fault, my best hope is that now I can pay an increased fine but was told I'm still probably gonna have to go to court. I'm asking for advice, if you don't have anything useful to say don't bother.

You've been given advice, by me, which you took and you're still whinging.

-Chris- · 27-04-2011 11:15AM

In any correspondence with you did they ever say how long it would take for the appeal to be processed and for you to be notified?
How long exactly from you sending in the appeal to you receiving the summons?

murphyd · 27-04-2011 11:26AM

-Chris- wrote: »

In any correspondence with you did they ever say how long it would take for the appeal to be processed and for you to be notified?
How long exactly from you sending in the appeal to you receiving the summons?

No, when I was initially issued with the fine the slip I was given just said pay or appeal in writing within 21 days, so I appealed after 2days. 9 months later I got my summons. There was nothing in between. I know the lesson here is to follow up everything with phone calls but like I said, I was a bit naive and thought that was that, and with my accident soon after I became distracted and completely forgot about it. I don't know how these excuses would hold up in court, but it is the truth.

-Chris- · 27-04-2011 11:28AM

I wonder if there's anyone here who can give experience between date of lodging the appeal and date of receipt of response - what's the average wait time?

murphyd · 27-04-2011 11:31AM

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You've been given advice, by me, which you took and you're still whinging.

I'm not looking for advice on the fine anymore, it's not really an issue as it's unlikely that I'll only have to pay a fine now, most likely I'll have to go to court. If I am allowed to pay the €210 and not go to court I'll take that option, but I was interested in seeing if people think the system that's in place is as flawed as I feel it is. And I'm not whingeing, like I keep saying I'm looking for advice.

gizmo555 · 27-04-2011 11:34AM

murphyd wrote: »

I'll also try and get my hands on the CCTV footage.
Thanks again.

Be aware that "recognisable images captured by CCTV systems are personal data. They are therefore subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Acts."

In other words, IE is legally obliged to furnish you with the CCTV footage, if it has it. That said, since these events took place last summer, the pictures may well have been deleted by now.

Irish Rail's use of discretion for issuing fines

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