NFL DRAFT 2011

neilster · 21-04-2011 04:30PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Bradford is on a different level to Newton and two very different styles of QB. Sure Bradford could have choked or failed in the Pros. And like any QB getting drafted questions will be asked that is a given But there is less of a gamble with a guy like Bradford who showed he had the mentality and attitude and the skills to do so. The only thing holding Bradford back was that shoulder injury and even then the Rams decided it wasn't an issue.

As for the Rams their big need on Offense was a QB and a WR and maybe a replacement tacle. But they have a fairly decent O-line and a huge RB. Defense is their main problem and the needs they have they will address this year in all of the above. You cannot compare the Rams choice in Bradford to that of Carolina and Newton. Different situation with different needs. Carolina have needs everywhere both offensively and defensively.

and a primary need at the most pivotal position on a team is the primary need , whether the potential pick meets the need influences the wisdom of the pick ...but a whole bunch of needs doesnt dilute the argument on the contrary it strengthens it

tallaghtoutlaws · 21-04-2011 04:43PM

neilster wrote: »

and a primary need at the most pivotal position on a team is the primary need , whether the potential pick meets the need influences the wisdom of the pick ...but a whole bunch of needs doesnt dilute the argument on the contrary it strengthens it

Such nonsense :rolleyes:

The Panthers primary need isnt QB though and it wasn't for a long time leading up to this draft. QB is far from their primary need. In fact it would be a depth need if they gave Clausen a chance. Clausen is not the problem there and Rivera is buying so far into the hype its beginning to look like he is trying to look like some master puppeteer by taking Newton. If it fails he will be out of a job next season and that is a guarantee as the Panthers will realise they wasted their whole draft on one pick and it really didn't get them far.

The sad thing is Neilster you and many others have been bitten by the hype also. The minute Rivera hinted QB everyone jumped on that bandwagon. Sure Rivera might want a QB but look at the Panthers QB isn't their main need. But hey as a coach I respect his decision after all its his job. In fact Rivera has shown both sides of his cards and also hinted looking at fixing the other gaps first.

I wish people would use their own brains if they think they truly know the sport instead of pretending the opinion of something found online is actual fact. Its take two minutes to realise the Panthers have more pressing needs than QB. Even those saying Newton know it and have said it in previous times, But even if they take Newton it doesn't make the pick right. Time will tell.

HigginsJ · 21-04-2011 06:28PM

Panthers have a need at too many positions to pick 1 overall and not have a 2nd round pick.

However their biggest problem is that teams that they would have been hoping may trade up are short of picks themselves. The Redskins do not have a 3rd or 4th round pick, The Dolphins do not have a 2nd round pick and the Vikings do not have a 3rd round pick. These teams are not going to move up as they all have multiple needs themselves & cant be without more picks.

I also think that teams do not see Newton as being worth a minimum $50 million investment (teams seem to feel that Rookie salaries will be same as last year). Does not seem to be enough separation between him and Gabbert to reach for him that high.

Dont like the idea of Panthers skipping the pick and sliding down the draft a few slots as they are still without a pick.

neilster · 21-04-2011 08:48PM

HigginsJ wrote: »

Panthers have a need at too many positions to pick 1 overall and not have a 2nd round pick.

However their biggest problem is that teams that they would have been hoping may trade up are short of picks themselves. The Redskins do not have a 3rd or 4th round pick, The Dolphins do not have a 2nd round pick and the Vikings do not have a 3rd round pick. These teams are not going to move up as they all have multiple needs themselves & cant be without more picks.

I also think that teams do not see Newton as being worth a minimum $50 million investment (teams seem to feel that Rookie salaries will be same as last year). Does not seem to be enough separation between him and Gabbert to reach for him that high.

Dont like the idea of Panthers skipping the pick and sliding down the draft a few slots as they are still without a pick.

well J Elway has been qouted as hoping for a reduced rookie scale which might effect the decision

I think the Vikings may go with a veteran at QB and just stick at their allotted picks ....the Dolphins may just pick Ingram and trade out of lower picks

whilst people talk about Robert Quinn and Julio Jones for the redskins they are more than likely the most likely to trade down at 10 with Houston , Detroit the Chargers all likely trade partners with a JJ Watt or cam Jordan still on the board

neilster · 21-04-2011 10:35PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Such nonsense :rolleyes:

The Panthers primary need isnt QB though and it wasn't for a long time leading up to this draft. QB is far from their primary need. In fact it would be a depth need if they gave Clausen a chance. Clausen is not the problem there and Rivera is buying so far into the hype its beginning to look like he is trying to look like some master puppeteer by taking Newton. If it fails he will be out of a job next season and that is a guarantee as the Panthers will realise they wasted their whole draft on one pick and it really didn't get them far.

The sad thing is Neilster you and many others have been bitten by the hype also. The minute Rivera hinted QB everyone jumped on that bandwagon. Sure Rivera might want a QB but look at the Panthers QB isn't their main need. But hey as a coach I respect his decision after all its his job. In fact Rivera has shown both sides of his cards and also hinted looking at fixing the other gaps first.

I wish people would use their own brains if they think they truly know the sport instead of pretending the opinion of something found online is actual fact. Its take two minutes to realise the Panthers have more pressing needs than QB. Even those saying Newton know it and have said it in previous times, But even if they take Newton it doesn't make the pick right. Time will tell.

Their primary need is multiple picks which the no1 pick could give but in the absence of that ...it really is in the eye of the beholder ..you rate Clausen and thats fine and i dont ...its a mirror image ...if Clausen is the answer and brought on slowly their glaring need is at defensive tackle and pretty much across the defensive front which a Dareus or Fairley could gladly fill and be mannah from heaven

If you dont really rate Clausen which i dont and didnt before the draft of 2010 it becomes their biggest need ...its that simple cos this is a passers league ...i take the point about Clausen running for his life but i dont rate the guy

But lets look at Clausen in 2010 ..he didnt throw a touchdown to a wide reciever in his whole 10 game season , his passer rating was 58.4 in only ten games ...this compares to matt Ryan in 2008-09 at a 87 rating ..whilst nfl.com has been acting like they have heard things form inside the Panthers on Newtons selection ...numbers like this suggest a Newton pick

Clausen had three touchdowns and 9 interceptions...he threw for only 1500 yards

but lets look at Rivera and Clausen ...this was Riveras comments on Clausen :

"there are absolutely no promises but the opportunity to compete."

that translates to : someone else comes in and does even marginally better, it's been good knowing you.

The kid had a good year with Notre Dame but he should have stepped forward even with Carolina ....there offensive line is weak but is arguably not their worst component and Otah is a fine player

I always wondered that Shanahan never moved on Clausen ...Bradford was destined for the Rams and for Jason Campbell and Andre Carter and a pick or Chris Cooley they could have moved on Clausen but they passed and everybody else did and so did everyone else in first round and second

why did they do that ...why did Mike Holmgren ...Shanahan ....Pete Carroll ....Carolina ....Al Davis ....Denver ...why did they all pass on Clausen and why did they all believe the hype and not know the truth like you ....

neilster · 21-04-2011 10:41PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Such nonsense :rolleyes:

The Panthers primary need isnt QB though and it wasn't for a long time leading up to this draft. QB is far from their primary need. In fact it would be a depth need if they gave Clausen a chance. Clausen is not the problem there and Rivera is buying so far into the hype its beginning to look like he is trying to look like some master puppeteer by taking Newton. If it fails he will be out of a job next season and that is a guarantee as the Panthers will realise they wasted their whole draft on one pick and it really didn't get them far.

The sad thing is Neilster you and many others have been bitten by the hype also. The minute Rivera hinted QB everyone jumped on that bandwagon. Sure Rivera might want a QB but look at the Panthers QB isn't their main need. But hey as a coach I respect his decision after all its his job. In fact Rivera has shown both sides of his cards and also hinted looking at fixing the other gaps first.

I wish people would use their own brains if they think they truly know the sport instead of pretending the opinion of something found online is actual fact. Its take two minutes to realise the Panthers have more pressing needs than QB. Even those saying Newton know it and have said it in previous times, But even if they take Newton it doesn't make the pick right. Time will tell.

we are all going to have to drop all this hinting ...using google..reading contributions online ...all that ..you arent in the states and neither am i ...we arent going to be at spring camps and as a cowboys fan i wont be spending weeks in San Antonio....i watch film and so do you ..we both have a good interest and that interest is valid for everybody

listen i cant really fathom why Clausen didnt do better ...he was th emost pro-ready and the numbers in college are there..they are impressive ...maybe this guy will have the last laugh in the long run...it has certainly happened before

tallaghtoutlaws · 22-04-2011 03:25AM

neilster wrote: »

you arent in the states and neither am i ...we arent going to be at spring camps and as a cowboys fan i wont be spending weeks in San Antonio....i watch film and so do you ..we both have a good interest and that interest is valid for everybody

What has being in the States got to do with anything? But even if it did I spend 3 or 4 months a year over there and have worked with a US high school 2 out of the last 3 falls but I still wouldn't use that to back up any argument or try validate any argument with it. Any of the regulars on here know my background and know I never use any experience I gained in recent years to back up my arguments. I don't need to flex my muscles across the web as my opinion is my opinion and no more or less. And what hints? You just basically backed up what I implied and there was no dig at you when I said it. Don't we all use the internet from time to time to source our football. How we choose to use what we see on the net is another thing.

tallaghtoutlaws · 22-04-2011 03:38AM

neilster wrote: »

Their primary need is multiple picks which the no1 pick could give but in the absence of that ...it really is in the eye of the beholder ..you rate Clausen and thats fine and i dont ...its a mirror image ...if Clausen is the answer and brought on slowly their glaring need is at defensive tackle and pretty much across the defensive front which a Dareus or Fairley could gladly fill and be mannah from heaven

Where did I say I rate Clausen? I said he hasn't been given a chance. The Panthers are sh1te lets get that simple fact out of the way. Any QB in that offense in 2010 would have struggled.

If you dont really rate Clausen which i dont and didnt before the draft of 2010 it becomes their biggest need ...its that simple cos this is a passers league ...i take the point about Clausen running for his life but i dont rate the guy

See above

But lets look at Clausen in 2010 ..he didnt throw a touchdown to a wide reciever in his whole 10 game season , his passer rating was 58.4 in only ten games ...this compares to matt Ryan in 2008-09 at a 87 rating ..whilst nfl.com has been acting like they have heard things form inside the Panthers on Newtons selection ...numbers like this suggest a Newton pick

Clausen had three touchdowns and 9 interceptions...he threw for only 1500 yards

Ron Rivera isnt an idiot and once again the Panthers were shockingly bad to try use numbers against any QB on that team is useless as they are never going to be a true reflection of the man.

but lets look at Rivera and Clausen ...this was Riveras comments on Clausen :

"there are absolutely no promises but the opportunity to compete."

that translates to : someone else comes in and does even marginally better, it's been good knowing you.

Oh you know Ron Rivera do you? This to me reads that Clausen needs to put up or shut up. It leaves the door open to Clausen to prove to the new coaching staff that he is their man. See you are doing exactly what the media are doing and what everyone suggests. No coach is going to shoot down a QB his first few weeks on the job without letting him prove himself. And the fact the Panthers like every other team are locked out you can be damn sure Rivera gives Clausen time to throw if he keeps him on and doesnt offload him.

The kid had a good year with Notre Dame but he should have stepped forward even with Carolina ....there offensive line is weak but is arguably not their worst component and Otah is a fine player

Didnt watch too many Panthers games then eh? And one man in Otah isnt a line it takes 5 solid men to protect all angles on an O-line.

I always wondered that Shanahan never moved on Clausen ...Bradford was destined for the Rams and for Jason Campbell and Andre Carter and a pick or Chris Cooley they could have moved on Clausen but they passed and everybody else did and so did everyone else in first round and second

Not relevent.

why did they do that ...why did Mike Holmgren ...Shanahan ....Pete Carroll ....Carolina ....Al Davis ....Denver ...why did they all pass on Clausen and why did they all believe the hype and not know the truth like you ....

Firstly the bit in bold :rolleyes: and the 2nd bit in bold erm Clausen went to Carolina and they got him in a later round. Why pounce on someone earlier when he was clearly going to drop QBs were not in the same demand in that draft as for the rest of the post, Because as you said earlier and I quote:

Originally Posted by neilster View Post
and a primary need at the most pivotal position on a team is the primary need , whether the potential pick meets the need influences the wisdom of the pick ...but a whole bunch of needs doesnt dilute the argument on the contrary it strengthens it

See what I did there. They didn't need Clausen so why gamble on him.

Neilster stop trying to take digs at someone's opinion. The bit in bold where you said "truth like you" is a matter of my opinion i never said I know the truth but hey take a few more digs because it shows me you need to lower yourself to get your point across. Keep on trucking.

eagle eye · 22-04-2011 06:22AM

Matt Moore had a worse QB rating than Clausen last year, Brian St. Pierre had a rating under 50 in his only start. Delhomme the year before had a QB rating under 60 too.

When thats happening you can't just blame the QB for it. These guys even if they are real bad are capable of having a rating in the 70s. Going by what happened with them, even if they got Joe Montana in his prime I'd expect him to be under 70 for the season.

So do you want to know what happened? Well between 2008 and 2009 they lost starting tackle Frank Omiyale, starting center Geoff Hangartner and their best backup guard in Jeremy Bridges.

Its not only the QB that was affected. Just go and have a look at what happened to DeAngelo Williams and Jonathon Stewart. Both went down during the season, Williams went to IR, Stewart battled on only missing two games but he was a shadow of himself.

22-04-2011 07:53AM

OFFICIAL TIME OUT!
Hey lads! A few of ye are starting to go nose-to-nose, getting a bit too personal. Some friendly banter is fun and expected, but no fighting on the field. Let's chill. The last thing this Ref wants to do is start handing out unsportman-like conduct penalties.

TaosHum · 22-04-2011 02:41PM

Black Swan wrote: »

OFFICIAL TIME OUT!
Hey lads! A few of ye are starting to go nose-to-nose, getting a bit too personal. Some friendly banter is fun and expected, but no fighting on the field. Let's chill. The last thing this Ref wants to do is start handing out unsportman-like conduct penalties.

Coincidentally, Harris and Marshall were actually team mates for a period last season.

Bit of useless info right there for ye :pac:

neilster · 22-04-2011 08:43PM

TaosHum wrote: »

Coincidentally, Harris and Marshall were actually team mates for a period last season.

Bit of useless info right there for ye :pac:

did harris get on the field?

tallaghtoutlaws · 22-04-2011 09:10PM

neilster wrote: »

did harris get on the field?

3 games.

landsleaving · 22-04-2011 09:43PM

How can Marshall see with his helmet covering his eyes?

neilster · 22-04-2011 10:08PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Where did I say I rate Clausen? I said he hasn't been given a chance. The Panthers are sh1te lets get that simple fact out of the way. Any QB in that offense in 2010 would have struggled.

See above

Ron Rivera isnt an idiot and once again the Panthers were shockingly bad to try use numbers against any QB on that team is useless as they are never going to be a true reflection of the man.

Oh you know Ron Rivera do you? This to me reads that Clausen needs to put up or shut up. It leaves the door open to Clausen to prove to the new coaching staff that he is their man. See you are doing exactly what the media are doing and what everyone suggests. No coach is going to shoot down a QB his first few weeks on the job without letting him prove himself. And the fact the Panthers like every other team are locked out you can be damn sure Rivera gives Clausen time to throw if he keeps him on and doesnt offload him.

Didnt watch too many Panthers games then eh? And one man in Otah isnt a line it takes 5 solid men to protect all angles on an O-line.

Not relevent.

Firstly the bit in bold :rolleyes: and the 2nd bit in bold erm Clausen went to Carolina and they got him in a later round. Why pounce on someone earlier when he was clearly going to drop QBs were not in the same demand in that draft as for the rest of the post, Because as you said earlier and I quote:

See what I did there. They didn't need Clausen so why gamble on him.

Neilster stop trying to take digs at someone's opinion. The bit in bold where you said "truth like you" is a matter of my opinion i never said I know the truth but hey take a few more digs because it shows me you need to lower yourself to get your point across. Keep on trucking.

you got the mail i got so i stay on message on your points made

tallaghtoutlaws · 22-04-2011 11:23PM

neilster wrote: »

you got the mail i got so i stay on message on your points made

Excuse me? But you have lost me here.

tallaghtoutlaws · 22-04-2011 11:27PM

landsleaving wrote: »

How can Marshall see with his helmet covering his eyes?

Id say it got moved down when Harris went nose to nose with him. But if he is like most NFL WR and RB his chin strap is not as tight as it should be and that helmet can move about when contact is made on it. Tis why you see so many helmets fly off these days. If it is the case he plays like that all the time with his eyes covered Brandon Marshall is a freak and must have supervision haha

neilster · 23-04-2011 08:43AM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Where did I say I rate Clausen? I said he hasn't been given a chance. The Panthers are sh1te lets get that simple fact out of the way. Any QB in that offense in 2010 would have struggled.

See above

Ron Rivera isnt an idiot and once again the Panthers were shockingly bad to try use numbers against any QB on that team is useless as they are never going to be a true reflection of the man.

Oh you know Ron Rivera do you? This to me reads that Clausen needs to put up or shut up. It leaves the door open to Clausen to prove to the new coaching staff that he is their man. See you are doing exactly what the media are doing and what everyone suggests. No coach is going to shoot down a QB his first few weeks on the job without letting him prove himself. And the fact the Panthers like every other team are locked out you can be damn sure Rivera gives Clausen time to throw if he keeps him on and doesnt offload him.

Didnt watch too many Panthers games then eh? And one man in Otah isnt a line it takes 5 solid men to protect all angles on an O-line.

Not relevent.

Firstly the bit in bold :rolleyes: and the 2nd bit in bold erm Clausen went to Carolina and they got him in a later round. Why pounce on someone earlier when he was clearly going to drop QBs were not in the same demand in that draft as for the rest of the post, Because as you said earlier and I quote:

See what I did there. They didn't need Clausen so why gamble on him.

Neilster stop trying to take digs at someone's opinion. The bit in bold where you said "truth like you" is a matter of my opinion i never said I know the truth but hey take a few more digs because it shows me you need to lower yourself to get your point across. Keep on trucking.

Hang on a second that 5 man line has Jeff Otah (who got injured ) at right tackle and Jordan Gross at blind side and a Pro-Bowler in 2010 at center in Ryan Kalil , i would gladly swap those three for the three we have at Dallas .....that is good book-end and good at centre , they had Travelle Wharton and Duke Simpson who went down at Guard.....they definitely need a Right Guard as that was the side with real lack of block and rush but it isnt the worst unit on the team

Clausen got quite a large chance he started 13 games ...but that isnt the key points ....i looked back at some of this last night ...and he didnt seem to be using all his reads...his poise was bad in the pocket ...his attitude and demeanor was very bad ...but miss-steps always happen for a rookie ...but it didnt seem to improve ....even incrementally ...and while steve smith can be outspoken (he threw Clausen under the bus) .....Deangelo williams has openly came out this week imploring them to draft a QB

If Rivera cos of the labour situation or a little something he has saw drafts Dareus (they wont draft Green or Peterson...they are big needs but not the biggest) then Clausen is being given a chink of light but you could take the coachs comments as i have said

tallaghtoutlaws · 23-04-2011 02:57PM

neilster wrote: »

Hang on a second that 5 man line has Jeff Otah (who got injured ) at right tackle and Jordan Gross at blind side and a Pro-Bowler in 2010 at center in Ryan Kalil , i would gladly swap those three for the three we have at Dallas .....that is good book-end and good at centre , they had Travelle Wharton and Duke Simpson who went down at Guard.....they definitely need a Right Guard as that was the side with real lack of block and rush but it isnt the worst unit on the team

Ok taking what I already said Otah injured leaving Kalil as the only solid member on that line. Look you can argue how good their linemen are and try justify your post all you want but that same o-line gave up 50 sacks last season and 93 hits to the QB

Clausen got quite a large chance he started 13 games ...but that isnt the key points ....i looked back at some of this last night ...and he didnt seem to be using all his reads...his poise was bad in the pocket ...his attitude and demeanor was very bad ...but miss-steps always happen for a rookie ...but it didnt seem to improve ....even incrementally ...and while steve smith can be outspoken (he threw Clausen under the bus) .....Deangelo williams has openly came out this week imploring them to draft a QB

Clausen was a rookie in 2010 so of course he is going to miss a few reads but whatever tape you watched you didn't watch it properly. It is clear he is under all kinds of pressure in that non existent pocket and as a rookie who is trying to survive it is impossible to judge the kid. Every other rookie QB has been given some sort of grace in their first year in the pro as starters but yet the Panthers and media make Clausen out to be their scapegoat just because Rivera now hinted at a QB in the draft.

And of course Steve Smith and Williams are going to throw the limelight off them. They didn't exactly have stellar seasons either but they are already stars. Williams is the worst fool the dude only played 6 games before injury and only had 60 yds per game and he is blaming his QB :rolleyes:That crap oline is his problem.

If Rivera cos of the labour situation or a little something he has saw drafts Dareus (they wont draft Green or Peterson...they are big needs but not the biggest) then Clausen is being given a chink of light but you could take the coachs comments as i have said

Oh so now you are saying if Rivera doesn't go QB its down to the labour situation? You do realise Rivera talked about taking a non QB a more than a few occasions it just seems the Media have decided to latch onto the Newton thing more. Because lets face it Newton is bigger news to the media.

As for the coaches comments I already gave you my opinion behind them. To be fair you are reading far too much into them and going from 1+2=3 to 1+2=4.

The end of it all Im not a huge fan of Clausen didn't even like him at Notre Dame but I do think all this nonsense about him is unjustified. Had he played on a team who have the ability to protect him and he stinks the place up I would say ok kid wont make it. But he did have some glimmering moments and he was only a rookie in 2010 Id like to see him be given a chance and the Panthers to fix their pressing needs.

For the record with that much pressure on the QB Newton will struggle also as will any QB in their unless Rivera has a magical plans to fix his line.

Edit: just watched Total Access for the 1st time this week and Willie McGinest has a very similar idea to me, in fact he brings up the rookie factor also. Good to see some actual ex pros not throwing a rookie under the bus.

neilster · 24-04-2011 12:11AM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Ok taking what I already said Otah injured leaving Kalil as the only solid member on that line. Look you can argue how good their linemen are and try justify your post all you want but that same o-line gave up 50 sacks last season and 93 hits to the QB

Clausen was a rookie in 2010 so of course he is going to miss a few reads but whatever tape you watched you didn't watch it properly. It is clear he is under all kinds of pressure in that non existent pocket and as a rookie who is trying to survive it is impossible to judge the kid. Every other rookie QB has been given some sort of grace in their first year in the pro as starters but yet the Panthers and media make Clausen out to be their scapegoat just because Rivera now hinted at a QB in the draft.

And of course Steve Smith and Williams are going to throw the limelight off them. They didn't exactly have stellar seasons either but they are already stars. Williams is the worst fool the dude only played 6 games before injury and only had 60 yds per game and he is blaming his QB :rolleyes:That crap oline is his problem.

Oh so now you are saying if Rivera doesn't go QB its down to the labour situation? You do realise Rivera talked about taking a non QB a more than a few occasions it just seems the Media have decided to latch onto the Newton thing more. Because lets face it Newton is bigger news to the media.

As for the coaches comments I already gave you my opinion behind them. To be fair you are reading far too much into them and going from 1+2=3 to 1+2=4.

The end of it all Im not a huge fan of Clausen didn't even like him at Notre Dame but I do think all this nonsense about him is unjustified. Had he played on a team who have the ability to protect him and he stinks the place up I would say ok kid wont make it. But he did have some glimmering moments and he was only a rookie in 2010 Id like to see him be given a chance and the Panthers to fix their pressing needs.

For the record with that much pressure on the QB Newton will struggle also as will any QB in their unless Rivera has a magical plans to fix his line.

Edit: just watched Total Access for the 1st time this week and Willie McGinest has a very similar idea to me, in fact he brings up the rookie factor also. Good to see some actual ex pros not throwing a rookie under the bus.

Im not saying the line played well last year im saying its not their worst unit , Gross , Otah and Kalil is a good foundation ...two were banged up last year and the Guards saink up the place that were left and two guards who are passable went down also

Its about the only fixable unit on the team ...we cant say the 4th best Oline in football in 2009 goes to dogs when most of that 2009 line comes back having been injured in 2010 to play in 2011

tallaghtoutlaws · 24-04-2011 01:30AM

neilster wrote: »

Im not saying the line played well last year im saying its not their worst unit , Gross , Otah and Kalil is a good foundation ...two were banged up last year and the Guards saink up the place that were left and two guards who are passable went down also

Joint 2nd worst in the NFL statically last season to be precise.

Its about the only fixable unit on the team ...we cant say the 4th best Oline in football in 2009 goes to dogs when most of that 2009 line comes back having been injured in 2010 to play in 2011

4th best? Try 13th best O-line in 2009 and even then they gave up 33 sacks and let their QB take 62 hits. If you mean rushing yards yards? That has no bearing on how well they protect their QB. Many an O-line who is a fantastic run blocker but a terrible pass blocker and vice versa.

neilster · 24-04-2011 09:51AM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Joint 2nd worst in the NFL statically last season to be precise.

4th best? Try 13th best O-line in 2009 and even then they gave up 33 sacks and let their QB take 62 hits. If you mean rushing yards yards? That has no bearing on how well they protect their QB. Many an O-line who is a fantastic run blocker but a terrible pass blocker and vice versa.

you can try and talk down that o-line all you want ...its not a terrible line when its manned with all its best components ..that line had jake delhomme checking down ....being pretty immobile in the pocket and holding on to the ball too long ...all traits he went on to perfect in a few games in Cleveland which had a middle tier o-line with the same results

tallaghtoutlaws · 24-04-2011 03:22PM

neilster wrote: »

you can try and talk down that o-line all you want ...its not a terrible line when its manned with all its best components ..that line had jake delhomme checking down ....being pretty immobile in the pocket and holding on to the ball too long ...all traits he went on to perfect in a few games in Cleveland which had a middle tier o-line with the same results

Talk it down? Are you for real? I don't need to talk it down the numbers don't lie and what I seen with my own eyes also. Jake Delhomme and Moore both spent a lot of time on their asses at QB also. I know more about linemen than you will ever know lets get that out of the way.

As for Delhomme Vs Clausen. Clausen is a rookie what part of that are you failing to grasp. You are comparing a guy who is used to being rushed by top NFL ends and linebackers compared to a guy who was thrown in the deep end when their o-line was leaking sacks all over the shop. Pressure fooks up the best QBs now throw in a rookie and you are asking for disastor.

All you have to do is look at Delhommes numbers in 2009 very similar to Clausens in 2010.

Delhomme 2009 178/321 55.5% 2015yds 8td 18int 59.4rating
Clausen 2010 157/299 52.5% 1558yds 3tds 9ints 58.4 rating

Now if you are trying to tell me Delhomme did better with the same O-line you might want to retract that statement. What makes it worse for Delhomme is he is the experienced one and has been around the block compared to a guy who was playing as a QB at standard that is way beyond what is he was used to.

I love the way you say when its manned with all its best components. Well it was in 2009 and it gave up 33 sacks on their QB. Yet again I will explain to you about the difference between protect your runner and QB. In 2009 combined with Williams abilities that line were excellent and giving him room but when it came to blocking for their QBs they failed miserably.

tallaghtoutlaws · 24-04-2011 03:35PM

neilster wrote: »

all traits he went on to perfect in a few games in Cleveland which had a middle tier o-line with the same results

Delhomme at the Browns didn't do a lot to be fair. A "few" games with still bad numbers isn't any better. In fact his only good game was against the Dolphins and the rest he was mediocre to poor at best. But again you cannot compare an experienced QB who still did sh1t at the Browns in a different system to a rookie. Its that plain and simple.

neilster · 24-04-2011 10:16PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Talk it down? Are you for real? I don't need to talk it down the numbers don't lie and what I seen with my own eyes also. Jake Delhomme and Moore both spent a lot of time on their asses at QB also. I know more about linemen than you will ever know lets get that out of the way.

As for Delhomme Vs Clausen. Clausen is a rookie what part of that are you failing to grasp. You are comparing a guy who is used to being rushed by top NFL ends and linebackers compared to a guy who was thrown in the deep end when their o-line was leaking sacks all over the shop. Pressure fooks up the best QBs now throw in a rookie and you are asking for disastor.

All you have to do is look at Delhommes numbers in 2009 very similar to Clausens in 2010.

Delhomme 2009 178/321 55.5% 2015yds 8td 18int 59.4rating
Clausen 2010 157/299 52.5% 1558yds 3tds 9ints 58.4 rating

Now if you are trying to tell me Delhomme did better with the same O-line you might want to retract that statement. What makes it worse for Delhomme is he is the experienced one and has been around the block compared to a guy who was playing as a QB at standard that is way beyond what is he was used to.

I love the way you say when its manned with all its best components. Well it was in 2009 and it gave up 33 sacks on their QB. Yet again I will explain to you about the difference between protect your runner and QB. In 2009 combined with Williams abilities that line were excellent and giving him room but when it came to blocking for their QBs they failed miserably.

You havent been looking into Carolina's history on the O-Line ...they returned in 2009 every single starter on the very good Offensive line that was there in 2008 which had a 12-4 record and made Delhomme who is not very good look very good..and earn a $42m extension ...all except that meltdown night against Arizona in Charlotte

there were losses in personnel but they were on the depth chart and i would wager Travelle Wharton and Duke Simpson was as good as what was shipped out .....those two then went down ...then Otah had injuries and Gross seemed to be carrying knocks ...as i said Carolina will most probably not visit the offensive line at all in the draft until the mid rounds and then it will be for a Guard ....i would lovingly give them an aging Marc Columbo and Doug Free for their tackles

Listen i dont know how much you know about linemen ...id say a good bit...im not going to insult your knowledge...but John Fox knows more than either of us and ran Carolina as a pretty credible unit until 2010

the line wasnt wonderful in 2010 but quarterback play was very bad along with the lack of offensive tools

I dont need a tutorial on pass and rush.... tell me how can the exact same personnel get a first round bye in one year and the next get 8-8 and block so badly ....does this mean the 12-4 was a fluke ....that otah, gross and Kalil arent pro-bowlers...id didnt say they were great in 2010 i just said they would be the easiest grouping to salvage

neilster · 24-04-2011 10:25PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Delhomme at the Browns didn't do a lot to be fair. A "few" games with still bad numbers isn't any better. In fact his only good game was against the Dolphins and the rest he was mediocre to poor at best. But again you cannot compare an experienced QB who still did sh1t at the Browns in a different system to a rookie. Its that plain and simple.

anyway maybe we are missing the point that Carolina are going to trade out of the pick and the only team either brave enough or mad enough is.........

Arizona

see what you think of this ...because Carolina has to give Cam Newton $50m to boom or bust and they dont have second rounder ...they look for a trade partner ....to beat Carolina and Buffalo along with Cincy who may be the real team they trying to jump ahead of put together a deal that includes the Cardinals no 5 pick , 37th pick and 4th rounder ...this is seven of the top 103 picks in the draft

is this something that Arizona could do?

tallaghtoutlaws · 24-04-2011 11:06PM

neilster wrote: »

You havent been looking into Carolina's history on the O-Line ...they returned in 2009 every single starter on the very good Offensive line that was there in 2008 which had a 12-4 record and made Delhomme who is not very good look very good..and earn a $42m extension ...all except that meltdown night against Arizona in Charlotte

No I have and I stand by what I say. In 2008 they had a full line but even then it was full of inconsistency's and average linemen.

But if you want to compare 2010's line here you go notice two of their starters from this year didn't play in 2008:

Ryan Kalil Starting Centre since 2008
Jeff Otah OT Drafted 2008 Only played 12 in 2008 13 2009 and 0 2010
Travelle Wharton OG 2008 14 games and starts 2009 16 & 16 and 2010 9 & 9
Jordan Gross OT 2008 16 2009 9 2010 16
Mackenzy Bernadeau OG 2008 O 2009 16 & 7 2010 16 + 12
Gary Williams OT joined 2009 5 games no starts 2010 16 games 11 starts

As you can see that O-line has had it problems since 2008 so I say again 2009 through 2010 that oline has been so bad and the stats dont lie. Whether they ever return to 2008 form who knows they have changed personnel and players since then anything could happen. I still stand by what I say regardless of how far back you feel the need to show me to prove your point. The fact of the matter is in the last two years they have progressively gotten worse.

there were losses in personnel but they were on the depth chart and i would wager Travelle Wharton and Duke Simpson was as good as what was shipped out .....those two then went down ...then Otah had injuries and Gross seemed to be carrying knocks ...as i said Carolina will most probably not visit the offensive line at all in the draft until the mid rounds and then it will be for a Guard ....i would lovingly give them an aging Marc Columbo and Doug Free for their tackles

As for Duke Simpson??? Im hoping you mean Duke Robinson who was drafted in 2009 and has yet to play. How can we gauge someone without any NFL experience?

Listen i dont know how much you know about linemen ...id say a good bit...im not going to insult your knowledge...but John Fox knows more than either of us and ran Carolina as a pretty credible unit until 2010

Where did I say I knew more than John Fox? The downfall to their line happened from 2009 onwards. Their pass protection has gone downhill since that 2009 season. For the love of reasoning get those running yards out of your head.

the line wasnt wonderful in 2010 but quarterback play was very bad along with the lack of offensive tools

Oh yeah 50+ sack and 60+ hits to the QB is comforting for any QB

I dont need a tutorial on pass and rush.

Its clear you do because you said their defense was 4th best in 2009 when they clearly werent. In rushing yards they were, as a total offensive line including pass protection they were 13th. In fact had they not been so helpful to DeAngelo im sure the 13 would have been mid 20's overall in 2009 statistically as an Oline.

... tell me how can the exact same personnel get a first round bye in one year and the next get 8-8 and block so badly

As for the the second bit in bold I cleared the "exact same personnel" above.

....does this mean the 12-4 was a fluke ....that otah, gross and Kalil arent pro-bowlers...id didnt say they were great in 2010 i just said they would be the easiest grouping to salvage

No I never touched on the 2008 season. You brought that up not me. Again to make it sink in though look at the injuries and changes to the line since 2008. It all started to go wrong from 2009 onwards. Otah and Gross and Kalil are good linemen but injuries and the supporting cast dont help. Once again you are missing the point of all of this.

You can drop back to 2007 or 2006 all you want but that offensive line has gone through problem since that 2009 season onwards and the numbers dont lie especially when it comes to protecting their QB.

My point once again Neilster from looking at the line they had in 2009 and 2010 they got progressively worse and the line couldn't protect themselves never mind a QB. Their pass protection went from good to average to shocking in 3 seasons.

Peyton Manning · 24-04-2011 11:13PM

neilster wrote: »

is this something that Arizona could do?

Could? Yes.

Would? No.

Whisenhunt's job isn't as secure as it was when he signed a new contract last year. He's in no position to be taking a punt on - as you call Newton - a $50 million boom or bust toss-up. Plus, if you listen to what Whisenhunt has been saying lately - talking about how difficult it is for young QBs to come in under pressure and make an impact - added to the fact that Arizona based journalists are convinced he'll draft defence as priority, I'd be shocked if they traded up. More likely they'll go after Kolb or whoever else is available already in the league. If Gabbert falls to them on draft day, they might do a double take, but no way they (or anyone if you ask me) will trade up to 1st.

mikemac · 24-04-2011 11:15PM

Marc Bulger to Arizona is something I think is very possible

He won't be staying in Baltimore and he'll generate interest on the free agent market.
Experience in the NFC West too

If they wanted to keep young Skelton, Bulger would be a good tutor too

TaosHum · 25-04-2011 11:31AM

Would be surprised if the Cards took a QB early. I think they will look to get a vet, be it be McNabb, Young or Bulger.

If they are going to trade up, them I would think it would be for Von Miller if anyone.

NFL DRAFT 2011

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