NFL DRAFT 2011

landsleaving · 17-04-2011 11:14PM

I don't think Newton is even close to Bradford's level as a potential NFL player. He only played one year at a high enough level to be really counted and he does have that laptop theft... thing... on his record. If I was just looking for an upgrade over Clausen I'd take Gabbert. I know Newton is better physically, but I see shades of Vince Young there. Too much risk for me.

eagle eye · 17-04-2011 11:56PM

I personally don't think that either Newton or Gabbert are first round talents. Problem is the desperate needs that some team have at the position. Still for me I think I'd rather give Clausen a chance that risk my pick on either of them two.

Like if Clausen had waited until this year there would be no question as to who the no.1 draft pick would be and he would be it.

Any team willing to shell out a high pick on QBs that drafted somebody that would have been ahead of them had he stayed in college another year is just nuts in my book. Clausen didn't have a great start at Notre Dame but got better quickly. Its well worth giving him a shot imo and you can't go wrong with Dareus, Peterson or AJ Green.

SantryRed · 18-04-2011 04:27PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I personally don't think that either Newton or Gabbert are first round talents. Problem is the desperate needs that some team have at the position. Still for me I think I'd rather give Clausen a chance that risk my pick on either of them two.

Like if Clausen had waited until this year there would be no question as to who the no.1 draft pick would be and he would be it.

Any team willing to shell out a high pick on QBs that drafted somebody that would have been ahead of them had he stayed in college another year is just nuts in my book. Clausen didn't have a great start at Notre Dame but got better quickly. Its well worth giving him a shot imo and you can't go wrong with Dareus, Peterson or AJ Green.

Completely agree. And sure, if Clausen is another disaster next year, well then Andrew Luck rolls straight onto your lap

I think the Panthers would be crazy to waste a Number 1 pick on a QB this season.

HigginsJ · 19-04-2011 10:02PM

what channel will the draft be on over here?

FreeOSCAR · 19-04-2011 10:14PM

HigginsJ wrote: »

what channel will the draft be on over here?

ESPN

landsleaving · 19-04-2011 11:50PM

FreeOSCAR wrote: »

ESPN

Will it be broadcast online anywhere?

mikemac · 20-04-2011 12:22AM

It'll be on NFL Network but you'll need to subscribe for that.

Other then that, never an issue to get a good stream for the NFL draft

neilster · 20-04-2011 01:20PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I personally don't think that either Newton or Gabbert are first round talents. Problem is the desperate needs that some team have at the position. Still for me I think I'd rather give Clausen a chance that risk my pick on either of them two.

Like if Clausen had waited until this year there would be no question as to who the no.1 draft pick would be and he would be it.

Any team willing to shell out a high pick on QBs that drafted somebody that would have been ahead of them had he stayed in college another year is just nuts in my book. Clausen didn't have a great start at Notre Dame but got better quickly. Its well worth giving him a shot imo and you can't go wrong with Dareus, Peterson or AJ Green.

Are you kidding about Clausen ? what proof is there that he would draft no 1 ....he would have had to do very well in college for that imo which he hadnt a track record for doing.... General Managers throughout the league passed on him until the 3rd round ...he then didnt unseat Moore in pre-season (which at an early stage isnt unusual but Bradford did), he didnt unseat Moore even though Matt Moore played very badly and then he was very bad when giving the chance....whilst he was put into a bad situation ...i dont hear that many cheerleaders for him except here ...the question is does Carolina trust Newton ...im pretty sure Clausen isnt in the conversation ....Rivera didnt draft him and has nothing to go on to keep him ....He is in a similar limbo to Tebow and Tebow has shown more .....Elway has as much allegiance to Orton & Tebow as Rivera has to Clausen ...very very little

neilster · 20-04-2011 01:32PM

SantryRed wrote: »

Completely agree. And sure, if Clausen is another disaster next year, well then Andrew Luck rolls straight onto your lap I think the Panthers would be crazy to waste a Number 1 pick on a QB this season.

i point you to my previous post ...sometimes you've got to make the pick and the right pick and not find a way not to make the pick , Carolina not drafting Newton is finding way to not make the pick ...if they get a very handsome trade with another team .....say Washington ...they could be criticised but in the absence of a trade , drafting a Dareus is safe but dull ...Peterson only neutralises half in the field on defense , a quarterback affects every snap

in 1983 the Chiefs drafted Todd Blackledge ...the Jets Ken O'Brien and the Patriots Tony Eason instead of Dan Marino ...Marino was a man about campus , there were Cocaine rumours....pretty woman ...a Leinart-type party guy and those teams stayed away ....16 years later when Marino retired with 9 pro-bowls and all the records under the sun (no Superbowl alas) ...id say there was regret in Kansas , New York and Boston

Closer to today , Miami ignored Matt Ryan for Jake Long , this is a moment like that for Carolina ....was everyon so sure about Bradford or Flynn or Freeman ...doubtful

I would say Mallett , Newton & Ponder can really achieve in the league , the rest i have doubts ...Carolina have to and will make the pick

tallaghtoutlaws · 20-04-2011 02:38PM

neilster wrote: »

Are you kidding about Clausen ? what proof is there that he would draft no 1 ....he would have had to do very well in college for that imo which he hadnt a track record for doing

Isn't hindsight such a wonderful thing though. Of course there is no proof he would have done well because guess what he didn't stay to finish his senior year. But many believe he would have had his best season in his Senior year which in turn would have increased his stock. You talk about attitudes, guess what there is 2 QBs in this years class with the same problem and no one has batted an eyelid to it so it seems i.e neither player's stock has been affected by it. Many teams seem to believe nowadays they can fix attitudes. The problem with Clausen is that he is no more than a game manager in coaches eyes so he would have had to prove in his senior year he could bring more to the table on the field.

neilster wrote: »

Closer to today , Miami ignored Matt Flynn for Jake Long , this is a moment like that for Carolina ....was everyon so sure about Bradford or Flynn or Freeman ...doubtful

Matt Flynn went in 2008 in the 7th round but Im guessing you mean Matt Ryan 2008 first round 3rd pick and the answer is yes to both Ryan and Bradford. The Rams made it quite clear who they wanted even before the combine happened and Atlanta needed a Franchise QB and Matt Ryan was the obvious choice. You would have wanted to be a hermit not to guess both of those picks in their respective Draft classes.

As to why the Dolphins passed on Ryan well many believed they wanted to get a senior QB in that slot and find his apprentice in later rounds and thats what happened. They took Chad Henne and in August after months of speculation and being favourites to grab him got Pennington. Don't forget Tony Sporano never did anything normal the guy was a bag of games.

I would say Mallett , Newton & Ponder can really achieve in the league , the rest i have doubts ...Carolina have to and will make the pick

The jury is out on all 3. Im not convinced on any of this years QBs. If I was to pick one it would be Andy Dalton out of TCU. Most underrated of the top QBs going into draft in my eyes.

frostie500 · 20-04-2011 03:41PM

neilster wrote: »

Closer to today , Miami ignored Matt Flynn for Jake Long , this is a moment like that for Carolina ....was everyon so sure about Bradford or Flynn or Freeman ...doubtful

I would say Mallett , Newton & Ponder can really achieve in the league , the rest i have doubts ...Carolina have to and will make the pick

Jake Long is a great tackle so while the Dolphins would have gotten more value from picking Matt Ryan there is no reason for them to feel pissed at missing out on a franchise QB. As Tallaght said they went out and got Pennington in as QB. The pick that the Dolphins wish they could have had back would be the Ted Ginn pick from the year before which clearly was a bust.

In relation to Bradford, Ryan and Freeman and other first round QBs in recent years.

Ryan's weaknesses coming out of college were generally reckoned to be that he did not have the strongest of arms for the deep ball, fair point as his time in the league has shown, but that that was the only negative. His intelligence and poise were well established before he came into the league and anyone that watched college ball was reasonably sure that he would come into the league and be successful so it was little surpise to see him go at number 3.

When Joe Flacco came out in the same year there was an expectation that it might take him some time to adjust to the NFL but that he would be successful in his career as a result he was picked by the Ravens in the middle of the opening round.

When Matt Stafford went number one there was little surprise at that decision. He was seen as a QB with a strong arm who could see down a rush and get the ball out quickly. His decision making was questionable at times but there was little doubt that he was a QB to build a franchise around.

When Freeman was drafted he was seen as a superb physical speciman who needed time to develop his decision making. There was never any question about him being taken early in the draft and his slot at 17 fitted with the expectation of him. His upside was what interested scouts while his inconsistencies at the college level made them afraid of taking him too early in the first round.

Sam Bradford will be remembered as one of the greatest college quarterbacks ever. He came out with perfect mechanics, great leadership, poise under pressure and renowned intellegence. The question mark hanging over him was his shoulder injuries in his junior year but the Rams did their due dillegence and had him checked out and he passed with flying colours leaving little doubt about the number one pick last year.

You say that Carolina has to make the pick because Newton is clearly a franchise QB but there is far more question marks hanging over him than the likes of Ryan, Bradford and Staffort. I think Newton could be an amazing QB in the NFL....or he could be a bust. If I am Carolina I'm not sure that I am putting my franchise in a position to draft such a risk.

You're right in saying that they need a starting QB but I just think that taking Newton would be a pretty risky move and, if I was them, I would be more interested in trading for someone like Kolb when the CBA is sorted out. Of course the risk of Newton would be offset by the likelihood of a rookie wage scale but I just think that, unlike with Ryan and Bradford, there is clear questions about taking Newton who should be compared to Vince Young more readily than the others quoted.

Young came out with similar questions over his head and while he has performed excellently at times he is now looking for a new NFL team. Newton has the skills to be a building block for the future if a team has little expectation of winning soon but with the pressure placed on a number one overall pick it would seem unlikely to me that he would be given the room to develop

eagle eye · 20-04-2011 10:09PM

neilster wrote: »

Are you kidding about Clausen ? what proof is there that he would draft no 1 ....he would have had to do very well in college for that imo which he hadnt a track record for doing.... General Managers throughout the league passed on him until the 3rd round ...he then didnt unseat Moore in pre-season (which at an early stage isnt unusual but Bradford did), he didnt unseat Moore even though Matt Moore played very badly and then he was very bad when giving the chance....whilst he was put into a bad situation ...i dont hear that many cheerleaders for him except here ...the question is does Carolina trust Newton ...im pretty sure Clausen isnt in the conversation ....Rivera didnt draft him and has nothing to go on to keep him ....He is in a similar limbo to Tebow and Tebow has shown more .....Elway has as much allegiance to Orton & Tebow as Rivera has to Clausen ...very very little

No I'm not kidding about Clausen. Last year he was seen by most as the second best QB in the draft. He was the third one picked. This years group would not have been anywhere near selection in the first three rounds(Jake Locker aside). Locker spent an extra year in college and it severely damaged his draft stock so I'm pretty confident that if Clausen had stayed in college he would have been the no.1 QB in this year's draft.

Thats only part of it though. Newton for me has far too many question marks to grade him in the first round.
Marcell Dareus is going to be a top player in the NFL, there is no question about that. Patrick Peterson is going to be a star in the NFL too, I'm certain of that.

The Carolina Panthers have a huge problem in both those positions. They have a problem at QB too.

So tell me what do you do in that situation? The team is not going to suddenly turn around and become a winning team if you put in a QB who has to learn how to play under center. Newton is not pro-ready and he might not even start this year.

If you take the DT or the CB this year, you are likely to still have a high pick next year with Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley and Landry Jones all likely to be up for grabs and all of them imo are sounder prospects that either of Newton or Gabbert.

I actually agree with Tallaght that Andy Dalton is a better prospect than either of Newton or Gabbert. And personally I believe that TJ Yates is a guy who will become a star in the NFL if he can sit behind a starter for a year.

And also there is a possibility next year of picking up somebody in free agency. Kevin Kolb might well decide to stick with the Eagles this year and make his move in free agency next season. No team wants to spend high picks on him unless they have an agreement to extend his contract in place. He has control of his future because of that.

neilster · 21-04-2011 10:09AM

eagle eye wrote: »

No I'm not kidding about Clausen. Last year he was seen by most as the second best QB in the draft. He was the third one picked. This years group would not have been anywhere near selection in the first three rounds(Jake Locker aside). Locker spent an extra year in college and it severely damaged his draft stock so I'm pretty confident that if Clausen had stayed in college he would have been the no.1 QB in this year's draft.

Thats only part of it though. Newton for me has far too many question marks to grade him in the first round.
Marcell Dareus is going to be a top player in the NFL, there is no question about that. Patrick Peterson is going to be a star in the NFL too, I'm certain of that.

The Carolina Panthers have a huge problem in both those positions. They have a problem at QB too.

So tell me what do you do in that situation? The team is not going to suddenly turn around and become a winning team if you put in a QB who has to learn how to play under center. Newton is not pro-ready and he might not even start this year.

If you take the DT or the CB this year, you are likely to still have a high pick next year with Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley and Landry Jones all likely to be up for grabs and all of them imo are sounder prospects that either of Newton or Gabbert.

I actually agree with Tallaght that Andy Dalton is a better prospect than either of Newton or Gabbert. And personally I believe that TJ Yates is a guy who will become a star in the NFL if he can sit behind a starter for a year.

And also there is a possibility next year of picking up somebody in free agency. Kevin Kolb might well decide to stick with the Eagles this year and make his move in free agency next season. No team wants to spend high picks on him unless they have an agreement to extend his contract in place. He has control of his future because of that.

I think Clausen slipped to the third round for reason , i never liked the guy in any shape or form and then people talked about him being a bit of a punk ....people for reasons that we dont know passed on the guy to the point where he nearly missed the top100 picks ....in the case of McCoy it was an injury concern ...McCoy has worked out to a certain extent ...Clausen has not and i think the case is pretty clearly made now...if Ron Rivera likes the guy over the off season whenever that happens then he may make the grade but at present he is close to bust status

In all fairness to Dareus and Peterson , what is the unifying factor to the gross majority of bad win records last season ?? is it a deplorable secondary or a terrible interior defensive line , whilst they can be factors it more often than not is an unstable , undertalented or deficient signal caller

As exhibit A i point to Matt Moore , Carson Palmer , Derek Anderson , Jake Delhomme, Alex Smith , Vince Young , Donovan McNabb, Chad Henne for the really deficient

As exhibit B i point to lesser talents (still talented but arent the future) like Ryan Fitz, David Garrard where the signal called is also dragging a franchise back to mediocrity .

I would suggest the majority of the teams in the bottom 33% of the NFL on win records have a huge QB issue and again i go back to my refrain ...finding a way not to make the pick will almost certainly help those teams stay in that bottom 33%

Lets look at Locker , his last year in college allowed teams to see he had an accuracy problem ..that is why he has slipped and no other reason ...the combine and the drafting process allowed teams break down Clausen technically and the intangibles in interview and they didnt like what they saw

As to Dalton i see him as a game manager but i see a guy who will be a career back up . Stats wise only two quarterbacks stand head and shoulders above the rest and that is Mallett and Newton . I think Mallett could be the steal of the draft ...i dont include Dalton anywhere near that . For the same reasons that people could gameplan against Penningtons Jets , Dalton will not stretch the field and Mallett can along with Newton

neilster · 21-04-2011 10:22AM

frostie500 wrote: »

Jake Long is a great tackle so while the Dolphins would have gotten more value from picking Matt Ryan there is no reason for them to feel pissed at missing out on a franchise QB. As Tallaght said they went out and got Pennington in as QB. The pick that the Dolphins wish they could have had back would be the Ted Ginn pick from the year before which clearly was a bust.

In relation to Bradford, Ryan and Freeman and other first round QBs in recent years.

Ryan's weaknesses coming out of college were generally reckoned to be that he did not have the strongest of arms for the deep ball, fair point as his time in the league has shown, but that that was the only negative. His intelligence and poise were well established before he came into the league and anyone that watched college ball was reasonably sure that he would come into the league and be successful so it was little surpise to see him go at number 3.

When Joe Flacco came out in the same year there was an expectation that it might take him some time to adjust to the NFL but that he would be successful in his career as a result he was picked by the Ravens in the middle of the opening round.

When Matt Stafford went number one there was little surprise at that decision. He was seen as a QB with a strong arm who could see down a rush and get the ball out quickly. His decision making was questionable at times but there was little doubt that he was a QB to build a franchise around.

When Freeman was drafted he was seen as a superb physical speciman who needed time to develop his decision making. There was never any question about him being taken early in the draft and his slot at 17 fitted with the expectation of him. His upside was what interested scouts while his inconsistencies at the college level made them afraid of taking him too early in the first round.

Sam Bradford will be remembered as one of the greatest college quarterbacks ever. He came out with perfect mechanics, great leadership, poise under pressure and renowned intellegence. The question mark hanging over him was his shoulder injuries in his junior year but the Rams did their due dillegence and had him checked out and he passed with flying colours leaving little doubt about the number one pick last year.

You say that Carolina has to make the pick because Newton is clearly a franchise QB but there is far more question marks hanging over him than the likes of Ryan, Bradford and Staffort. I think Newton could be an amazing QB in the NFL....or he could be a bust. If I am Carolina I'm not sure that I am putting my franchise in a position to draft such a risk.

You're right in saying that they need a starting QB but I just think that taking Newton would be a pretty risky move and, if I was them, I would be more interested in trading for someone like Kolb when the CBA is sorted out. Of course the risk of Newton would be offset by the likelihood of a rookie wage scale but I just think that, unlike with Ryan and Bradford, there is clear questions about taking Newton who should be compared to Vince Young more readily than the others quoted.

Young came out with similar questions over his head and while he has performed excellently at times he is now looking for a new NFL team. Newton has the skills to be a building block for the future if a team has little expectation of winning soon but with the pressure placed on a number one overall pick it would seem unlikely to me that he would be given the room to develop

Lets look at the Vince Young comparison ....he has an excellent win percentage but couldnt be a leader or a team-mate or a subordinate to a coach , that is why he will be looking for a new team ....these are not issues directed to Newton at present

In fact i would say these are all seen as strengths of Newton , as to say if he will be given the time to develop...it depends who does the developing i would say

With all due respect to Jake Long or Bryan Bulaga or Ryan Clady or Joe Thomas (my fave franchise tackles in the league), Left tackles very rarely draft in the top of the first round unless their level of talent (the aforementioned) ) coincides with a huge need like Miami for instance but i would say Miami would love Matt Ryan at this point and i would say every GM would concur

The other strange draft trait is the importance of wide recievers ...they rarely can win games for teams ....the are a complimentary feature but consistently teams draft them too high which i think may not happen this year . I give Larry Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnston along with Andre Johnston as my examples fantastic players but their draft worth along with a tackle is oversold

TaosHum · 21-04-2011 10:53AM

frostie500 wrote: »

Jake Long is a great tackle so while the Dolphins would have gotten more value from picking Matt Ryan there is no reason for them to feel pissed at missing out on a franchise QB. As Tallaght said they went out and got Pennington in as QB. The pick that the Dolphins wish they could have had back would be the Ted Ginn pick from the year before which clearly was a bust.

I was all for drafting Jake Long first back in 2008, but I'll admit now we made the wrong decision in drafting Long first overall. Long is a fantastic LT, top 3 in the league and could be a future hall of famer. But a LT is not going to win you a Superbowl in this league, a QB will. This is a passing league, if you dont have talent at QB then you will be irrelevant. Look at Miami since Marino retired. We are still trying to find his successor and the Fins have tried to do it by Free Agency (Frerotte, Fiedler, Pennington) and 2nd round picks (Beck, Henne, White, Feeley).

The Atlanta Falcons got that 2008 draft perfect. They took there QB at 3 and then got Sam Baker later in the 1st to be their LT. They now have a franchise QB and a very good LT, while we have a franchise LT and a mediocre QB. I know which one I would pick.

When Wannastedt was here we had probably the best Defense in the league, a league leading rusher and very good receivers, yet we still could not get near a Superbowl as we only had Fiedler at QB (Wanny can also take some credit for that).

Carolina IMO must pick Newton, forget about the talent coming out next year (you might not be in a position to take the best talent at QB), comparisons to Russell (all QB's have bust potential), etc. If Ron Rivera and the Front office think Newton could be a franchise QB then you take him without hesitation.

If he busts, so what? The Panthers will probably be in the same position they will be if they dont take him, a team without a franchise QB. You cant be afraid to take risks in this league.

neilster · 21-04-2011 11:42AM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Isn't hindsight such a wonderful thing though. Of course there is no proof he would have done well because guess what he didn't stay to finish his senior year. But many believe he would have had his best season in his Senior year which in turn would have increased his stock. You talk about attitudes, guess what there is 2 QBs in this years class with the same problem and no one has batted an eyelid to it so it seems i.e neither player's stock has been affected by it. Many teams seem to believe nowadays they can fix attitudes. The problem with Clausen is that he is no more than a game manager in coaches eyes so he would have had to prove in his senior year he could bring more to the table on the field.

Matt Flynn went in 2008 in the 7th round but Im guessing you mean Matt Ryan 2008 first round 3rd pick and the answer is yes to both Ryan and Bradford. The Rams made it quite clear who they wanted even before the combine happened and Atlanta needed a Franchise QB and Matt Ryan was the obvious choice. You would have wanted to be a hermit not to guess both of those picks in their respective Draft classes.

As to why the Dolphins passed on Ryan well many believed they wanted to get a senior QB in that slot and find his apprentice in later rounds and thats what happened. They took Chad Henne and in August after months of speculation and being favourites to grab him got Pennington. Don't forget Tony Sporano never did anything normal the guy was a bag of games.

The jury is out on all 3. Im not convinced on any of this years QBs. If I was to pick one it would be Andy Dalton out of TCU. Most underrated of the top QBs going into draft in my eyes.

i think Miami's draft tactics back up what i say ...instead of investing a first round pick or trading up ...they signed a veteran and a second rounder in Henne ....this sounds suspiciously like talking yourself out of a draft as i have mentioned earlier

Much like Minnesotas tactics this season where a team can win now , they draft a veteran ....i would say Miami were much less along that road and investing in a tackle and investing much less in a quarterback was the wrong way to go ....a couple of years later they have moved little further

contrast that with a franchise in the gruden years which underinvested in quarterbacks in Tampa...they went out and got the signal caller in freeman (or could have traded up for others as well) and made the big move

Others including yourself grade Newton & Mallett low and i appreciate that but i dont agree as to Dalton i see him as a sensible back-up nothing more nothing less

-he has only played spread offence
-he has not had to do full reads
-his percentage completion rate is around Newtons and Gabberts

these are similarites of Daltons, Newtons & Gabberts

Mallett on the other hand is accurate and both him and Newton have a good arm

Dalton has not thrown a lot of intermediate passes and at the senior bowl showed a tendency to shotputt throws where the velocity is not good enough . Dalton is a big reach in the second round and has flaws with no similar upside. Talent evaluators have mentioned him as a guy whose intangibles may rise him above a fringe prospect but for the reasons above i would not draft him

Again the rise of Andy Dalton up draft boards is much like some of the other prospects , they are safe picks where people are talking themselves out of decisive moves . Much like Clausen last year with a third round pick , will Dalton be worth a third rounder in 2 years times , well if not its a wasted pick imo

neilster · 21-04-2011 11:55AM

TaosHum wrote: »

I was all for drafting Jake Long first back in 2008, but I'll admit now we made the wrong decision in drafting Long first overall. Long is a fantastic LT, top 3 in the league and could be a future hall of famer. But a LT is not going to win you a Superbowl in this league, a QB will. This is a passing league, if you dont have talent at QB then you will be irrelevant. Look at Miami since Marino retired. We are still trying to find his successor and the Fins have tried to do it by Free Agency (Frerotte, Fiedler, Pennington) and 2nd round picks (Beck, Henne, White, Feeley).

The Atlanta Falcons got that 2008 draft perfect. They took there QB at 3 and then got Sam Baker later in the 1st to be their LT. They now have a franchise QB and a very good LT, while we have a franchise LT and a mediocre QB. I know which one I would pick.

When Wannastedt was here we had probably the best Defense in the league, a league leading rusher and very good receivers, yet we still could not get near a Superbowl as we only had Fiedler at QB (Wanny can also take some credit for that).

Carolina IMO must pick Newton, forget about the talent coming out next year (you might not be in a position to take the best talent at QB), comparisons to Russell (all QB's have bust potential), etc. If Ron Rivera and the Front office think Newton could be a franchise QB then you take him without hesitation.

If he busts, so what? The Panthers will probably be in the same position they will be if they dont take him, a team without a franchise QB. You cant be afraid to take risks in this league.

well said ......you said far better what i have been getting at all along ....teams like the Steelers , Pats, Ravens, saints etc can take the Dareus' and Fairleys all night long cos they are set at quarterback ....Carolina must be bold or be irrelevant

I would say the Fins have been unlucky in going for Culpepper versus brees (undue caution) and more bad luck in Pennington being injured who could have made the transition easier but again it is innate caution doing you down

eagle eye · 21-04-2011 12:32PM

neilster wrote: »

In all fairness to Dareus and Peterson , what is the unifying factor to the gross majority of bad win records last season ?? is it a deplorable secondary or a terrible interior defensive line , whilst they can be factors it more often than not is an unstable , undertalented or deficient signal caller

Well lets have a look at the worst six teams then.
Panthers Defensive and offensive problems, everywhere really. Defensive line was a huge weakness, secondary(corners) were a huge weakness, quarterback, running back too. Basically a huge mess.
Broncos Defensive front seven and running back for most of the year and tight end. No QB problems here.
Bengals Their problems lay for the most part in the secondary although the offensive line wasn't great either. Palmer might not be great but he ain't that bad. So its not the QB that was the problem here.
Bills Fitzpatrick had a good year for them once he came in. They had loads of issues last year but for the most part you can look at the defense which was awful. QB was certainly not a major issue.
Browns Colt McCoy came in a done well for them. Not a QB issue here either.
Cardinals Lost a great QB and failed to replace him. Derek Anderson doesn't have it and I don't think anybody else thats there has it either. Clearly a QB issue.

So there we have the six worst teams in the NFL last year and I see two teams that had major QB problems but one of them had many other problems also, that being the Panthers. Only one of those teams could you look at them and think that a QB is going to change things.

neilster wrote: »

As exhibit A i point to Matt Moore , Carson Palmer , Derek Anderson , Jake Delhomme, Alex Smith , Vince Young , Donovan McNabb, Chad Henne for the really deficient

These were not the worst teams in the NFL as you can see from above. Palmer threw for almost 4000 yards last season and had an 82.3 rating which is not a bad season. Jake Delhomme started only 4 games which means he didn't have a huge affect on the Browns season. Vince Young had a 98.6 rating while throwing for 1255 yards in 8 starts and 9 games total. As much as I don't rate Alex Smith, I never ever rated Singletary and I'll give him a pass because of that. As for McNabb, well he didn't have a great season but there were a lot more problems there and even when he did play well they managed to lose games. That team is a total mess full of overpaid underachievers. As for Chad Henne, I don't blame him for what happened last year. The line was caving in all year, he had no time in the pocket, their running game was a mess too. Apart from Jake Long there is nobody on that offensive line who looked good enough and they still managed to win 7 games somehow.

neilster wrote: »

As exhibit B i point to lesser talents (still talented but arent the future) like Ryan Fitz, David Garrard where the signal called is also dragging a franchise back to mediocrity .

You seem to have a hard on for QBs. Fitzpatrick is not my idea of a superstar nor Garrard either but they are not that bad. Fitzpatrick had an 81.8 rating, Garrard was over 90. While neither is brilliant it is acceptable if all other areas of your team are in good working order.

I think I've shown above that QB is not the be all and end all. You can be relatively successful with a mediocre QB. Carolina are not going to be successful this year if they draft Newton or Gabbert, I can guarantee you that. If they go and draft Dareus or Peterson they are not likely to be successful this year either unless Clausen or somebody else works out for them and even then its not very likely that they will be successful because they just have too many holes on the defense at this time.

You have to look at the long term picture when you are in a situation as bad as what Carolina are in right now. Just like the Rams and the Lions have taken it step by step.

The Rams could have taken Matt Ryan in 2008 or could have reached a bit for Sanchez in 2009 but they knew it wasn't going to improve them immediately and they knew there was a potentially rich draft class coming in 2010 so they took their time and put the pieces together and then took Bradford last year.

The Lions did similar taking a WR(Calvin Johnson) in 2007, a tackle in 2008 and then their QB in 2009. Thats the offense sorted and then they took Suh last year.

Neither of those teams decided to just jump in and take a QB the first chance they got near the top of the draft. I'm all for taking the best player available and everybody agrees that the best available are Dareus, Peterson and Miller. Thats where the Panthers should go imo and the Bills too.

tallaghtoutlaws · 21-04-2011 02:29PM

Anyone who thinks a Superbowl is won with just a QB is insane. Carolina for example if they Draft Newton still need at least 3 more drafts to fix the rest of the mess that is the Carolina Panthers.

Miami made the right pick in Long. But QB wasn't even an issue for them either. Pennington had the season of his career in 2008. Miami's problems lay elsewhere and still do. So in 2008 Miami went down the right road and look what happened they finished top of the AFC East and Pennington was being touted as a MVP candidate by many.

When the Giants beat the Pats in the Superbowl it was their defense that won it for them. Eli Manning then capitilised on his Defense's hard work and finished off the Pats.

I ask this question of you who think Newton is the answer. What happens if he fails? What happens if Carolina play him straight away and he gets no time to throw the ball and looks awful and then falls off the map? Where do they go then?

For me without the right ingredients on that Offense it doesnt matter how good your QB is the team will still fail and taking a so called instant fix isnt always the answer as previous years have showed us that. But one thing you do need is a solid Defense and Carolina don't have that and wont have that after this draft if they go Newton at 1.

tallaghtoutlaws · 21-04-2011 02:36PM

neilster wrote: »

Dalton has not thrown a lot of intermediate passes and at the senior bowl showed a tendency to shotputt throws where the velocity is not good enough . Dalton is a big reach in the second round and has flaws with no similar upside. Talent evaluators have mentioned him as a guy whose intangibles may rise him above a fringe prospect but for the reasons above i would not draft him

Again the rise of Andy Dalton up draft boards is much like some of the other prospects , they are safe picks where people are talking themselves out of decisive moves . Much like Clausen last year with a third round pick , will Dalton be worth a third rounder in 2 years times , well if not its a wasted pick imo

My opinion of Dalton has nothing to do with what some website told me or what the experts say. My opinion of Dalton is off what I have watched of him. Unlike you I don't need draft boards or rankings to tell me what I should and shouldn't like. A lot of what you and these websites are saying about Dalton was said about Tom Brady remember that.

The problem is here that teams now are guilty of buying into their own hype and the hype of everyone around them. For me the there is very little difference between at least 5 of the QBs in this years draft and each of them then have their own mixture of good and bad.

Personally I do think Dalton will drop and someone will pick him up and what that kid has is more workable than what the others have and he will eventually shine in the Pros unlike the others who will struggle due to hype and pressure as silly teams like Carolina pull the trigger on them

tallaghtoutlaws · 21-04-2011 02:49PM

TaosHum wrote: »

The Atlanta Falcons got that 2008 draft perfect. They took there QB at 3 and then got Sam Baker later in the 1st to be their LT. They now have a franchise QB and a very good LT, while we have a franchise LT and a mediocre QB. I know which one I would pick.

Huge contrast between Miami and Atlanta though. Atlanta had a full line of guys who were good enough to give Ryan time. Atlanta's main problem was QB. Miami's problem and still today is their O-line even with Long in there. Had Miami not taken Long they would most likely still be in the same situation. They need to repair the rest of that O-line and then. Right now most will agree QB is your porblem and is lets say RB. But your o-line still has gaping gaps and needs to be fixed. Take Jake Long out of that equation and today we would be talking about Miami drafting a whole new offensive line.

I actually don't believe Chad Henne is the problem at Miami but most including Fins fans will disagree with me. Just look at the games from last year and how many times Henne had defenders in his face and how much time he had to throw. He has been unlucky at the Dolphins.

Peyton Manning · 21-04-2011 03:01PM

The thing that's hampering the Panthers the most is the lack of a second round pick.There's nothing wrong with them taking Newton first, it's understandable. They feel they need a new QB, their new regime wants one, and they like Newton enough to take him first. It would be ideal if they could take that punt on Newton and then address the O-line in the second round, but they don't have that second round pick to do that.Given the situation they're in, I think the best thing they could do is trade out of 1st, see if they could get somewhere in the first where they could address the O-line, and also a second round pick where they could address whatever else they feel they need. Pick a QB with a later round pick, someone like Dalton, McElroy, Yates, Devlin etc. Let whoever that is and Clausen battle it out next year with what would hopefully be a better O-line, better weapons and a better defence to get them back on the field. If that doesn't work out, odds are they'll be in a position to pick up one of Luck, Barkley or Jones in the first next year (which I think is one of the best trios of quarterbacks to come along in the same draft in years).But they won't do that it seems. Newton is pretty much a certainty to go first.

neilster · 21-04-2011 03:08PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

My opinion of Dalton has nothing to do with what some website told me or what the experts say. My opinion of Dalton is off what I have watched of him. Unlike you I don't need draft boards or rankings to tell me what I should and shouldn't like. A lot of what you and these websites are saying about Dalton was said about Tom Brady remember that.

The problem is here that teams now are guilty of buying into their own hype and the hype of everyone around them. For me the there is very little difference between at least 5 of the QBs in this years draft and each of them then have their own mixture of good and bad.

Personally I do think Dalton will drop and someone will pick him up and what that kid has is more workable than what the others have and he will eventually shine in the Pros unlike the others who will struggle due to hype and pressure as silly teams like Carolina pull the trigger on them

As i have said to you before i fundamentally disagree with the evaluation of Dalton ....i have gone into a good amount of detail why ....now its up to the players

I dont think Brady was ever accused of having a weak arm
Brady played in the big ten as well which might be a better grounding and to be fair the low drafting was always an oddity ...he had a 63% completion rate on a big team like Michigan and cos of the henson stuff he wasnt taken seriously ...it still appears odd

Listen i think these guys are overhyped but i think Newton & Mallett are good enough .....Compare Newton to Tebow , he is more accurate with better technique and a bigger arm, he has similar running power but far faster 40...both are leaders ....Tebow did ok early in the NFL yet i seem to be pointing out a better player in Newton

neilster · 21-04-2011 03:09PM

Tom_Brady wrote: »

The thing that's hampering the Panthers the most is the lack of a second round pick.There's nothing wrong with them taking Newton first, it's understandable. They feel they need a new QB, their new regime wants one, and they like Newton enough to take him first. It would be ideal if they could take that punt on Newton and then address the O-line in the second round, but they don't have that second round pick to do that.Given the situation they're in, I think the best thing they could do is trade out of 1st, see if they could get somewhere in the first where they could address the O-line, and also a second round pick where they could address whatever else they feel they need. Pick a QB with a later round pick, someone like Dalton, McElroy, Yates, Devlin etc. Let whoever that is and Clausen battle it out next year with what would hopefully be a better O-line, better weapons and a better defence to get them back on the field. If that doesn't work out, odds are they'll be in a position to pick up one of Luck, Barkley or Jones in the first next year (which I think is one of the best trios of quarterbacks to come along in the same draft in years).But they won't do that it seems. Newton is pretty much a certainty to go first.

this is a good point hence id say they are looking to trade down first to get a second pick then take Newton if left with no option

tallaghtoutlaws · 21-04-2011 03:21PM

neilster wrote: »

As i have said to you before i fundamentally disagree with the evaluation of Dalton ....i have gone into a good amount of detail why ....now its up to the players

And as I said that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Doesn't make it the right one though.

I dont think Brady was ever accused of having a weak arm
Brady played in the big ten as well which might be a better grounding and to be fair the low drafting was always an oddity ...he had a 63% completion rate on a big team like Michigan and cos of the henson stuff he wasnt taken seriously ...it still appears odd

I was using Brady as an example of teams getting it wrong and bad scouting. But come on for a guy who uses google Im sure you can find out that Weak arm was mentioned for Brady in fact a lot of things were. His size, strength, conditioning and his workouts were terrible. See this is backing up my point that the so called experts can get it wrong and people buy into hype far too often.

As for weak arms it has been proven by many QB coaches and clinics that a weak throw is down to bad technique that can be fixed. Weak throw are generally down to a flaw in the throwing motion and bad conditioning. Two things that can be fixed.

Listen i think these guys are overhyped but i think Newton & Mallett are good enough .....Compare Newton to Tebow , he is more accurate with better technique and a bigger arm, he has similar running power but far faster 40...both are leaders ....Tebow did ok early in the NFL yet i seem to be pointing out a better player in Newton

Again all of the above your opinion. But I hate Tebow and I do diagree that Newton is the better of the 2 and experience is the key factor. Newton maybe the better Athlete but just ask the Raiders how better "athletes" work out. But the Tebow Newton better QB argument has been down and only time will tell.

neilster · 21-04-2011 03:21PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Anyone who thinks a Superbowl is won with just a QB is insane. Carolina for example if they Draft Newton still need at least 3 more drafts to fix the rest of the mess that is the Carolina Panthers.

Miami made the right pick in Long. But QB wasn't even an issue for them either. Pennington had the season of his career in 2008. Miami's problems lay elsewhere and still do. So in 2008 Miami went down the right road and look what happened they finished top of the AFC East and Pennington was being touted as a MVP candidate by many.

When the Giants beat the Pats in the Superbowl it was their defense that won it for them. Eli Manning then capitilised on his Defense's hard work and finished off the Pats.

I ask this question of you who think Newton is the answer. What happens if he fails? What happens if Carolina play him straight away and he gets no time to throw the ball and looks awful and then falls off the map? Where do they go then?

For me without the right ingredients on that Offense it doesnt matter how good your QB is the team will still fail and taking a so called instant fix isnt always the answer as previous years have showed us that. But one thing you do need is a solid Defense and Carolina don't have that and wont have that after this draft if they go Newton at 1.

Listen there is no question that Matt Hurney will ask all the questions you are putting about Newton .......but Spagnolo asked the same questions about Bradford (and i know the argument will go he was on a different level).....but i have read his Sports Illustrated article on the moment several games into the season when Bradford turned around a game on his own and Spagnolo spoke of the relief in the knowledge that they had chosen well at Quarterback and spoke about the fact you really dont know in any certainty what you got until a 2 minute warning happens etc

the Rams have other problems but quarterback is no longer one of them and the person who is influencing every snap of the game is shaping the teams future

Carolina must draft Newton or amass picks to build the team

TaosHum · 21-04-2011 03:22PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Huge contrast between Miami and Atlanta though. Atlanta had a full line of guys who were good enough to give Ryan time. Atlanta's main problem was QB. Miami's problem and still today is their O-line even with Long in there. Had Miami not taken Long they would most likely still be in the same situation. They need to repair the rest of that O-line and then. Right now most will agree QB is your porblem and is lets say RB. But your o-line still has gaping gaps and needs to be fixed. Take Jake Long out of that equation and today we would be talking about Miami drafting a whole new offensive line.

I actually don't believe Chad Henne is the problem at Miami but most including Fins fans will disagree with me. Just look at the games from last year and how many times Henne had defenders in his face and how much time he had to throw. He has been unlucky at the Dolphins.

What I will say about the Falcons when they drafted Ryan was that they didn't really have anyone at Tackle. Their interior was fine but they had no-one at LT. At least we had Vernon Carey, who even though is better suited to RT, did an adequate job at LT. With our only QB's prior to the draft being John Beck and Luke McCown (Pennington wasn't signed until late August) QB was our biggest need. We had three high picks that year going with Long, Phil Merling and Henne. For as much as I love Jake Long, I'd still take Ryan and Baker over what we ended up with.

The crazy thing about Henne, is that he is actually quite good when he has pressure. Its when he is faced with alot of numbers in coverage is when you see Henne at his worst and alot of teams have discovered that. He struggled mightily at the end of last season. Not having a run game really exposed him and when asked to beat teams, he was unable to do it. Coaching staff seem to have also given up on him by benching him halfway through the season and with the amount of interest they are showing with QB's in the draft.

As for our O-line, our interior is the problem. We could do with an upgrade over Carey at RT (who was average last season), but we could not open up any holes in the running game last season. Its extremely frustrating because in 2009 we finished 4th in rushing the ball in the league, with the same RB's we had last year. I understand why we let go of Smiley and Grove, but the players they replaced them with were very average. Richie Incognito is the only bright spot on the interior.

tallaghtoutlaws · 21-04-2011 03:24PM

Tom_Brady wrote: »

The thing that's hampering the Panthers the most is the lack of a second round pick.There's nothing wrong with them taking Newton first, it's understandable. They feel they need a new QB, their new regime wants one, and they like Newton enough to take him first. It would be ideal if they could take that punt on Newton and then address the O-line in the second round, but they don't have that second round pick to do that.Given the situation they're in, I think the best thing they could do is trade out of 1st, see if they could get somewhere in the first where they could address the O-line, and also a second round pick where they could address whatever else they feel they need. Pick a QB with a later round pick, someone like Dalton, McElroy, Yates, Devlin etc. Let whoever that is and Clausen battle it out next year with what would hopefully be a better O-line, better weapons and a better defence to get them back on the field. If that doesn't work out, odds are they'll be in a position to pick up one of Luck, Barkley or Jones in the first next year (which I think is one of the best trios of quarterbacks to come along in the same draft in years).But they won't do that it seems. Newton is pretty much a certainty to go first.

Another reason why they shouldn't go QB at 1. Carolina are idiots and I hope they cop on and pick something that could be an instant help to them rather than a QB who will do fook all if he has no protection and a team around him that are failing miserably. No way as a QB to start. And they wonder why questions are asked of Clausen. A QB on that team will never be able to look good with sh1te around him.

tallaghtoutlaws · 21-04-2011 03:35PM

neilster wrote: »

Listen there is no question that Matt Hurney will ask all the questions you are putting about Newton .......but Spagnolo asked the same questions about Bradford (and i know the argument will go he was on a different level).....but i have read his Sports Illustrated article on the moment several games into the season when Bradford turned around a game on his own and Spagnolo spoke of the relief in the knowledge that they had chosen well at Quarterback and spoke about the fact you really dont know in any certainty what you got until a 2 minute warning happens etc

the Rams have other problems but quarterback is no longer one of them and the person who is influencing every snap of the game is shaping the teams future

Carolina must draft Newton or amass picks to build the team

Bradford is on a different level to Newton and two very different styles of QB. Sure Bradford could have choked or failed in the Pros. And like any QB getting drafted questions will be asked that is a given But there is less of a gamble with a guy like Bradford who showed he had the mentality and attitude and the skills to do so. The only thing holding Bradford back was that shoulder injury and even then the Rams decided it wasn't an issue.

As for the Rams their big need on Offense was a QB and a WR and maybe a replacement tacle. But they have a fairly decent O-line and a huge RB. Defense is their main problem and the needs they have they will address this year in all of the above. You cannot compare the Rams choice in Bradford to that of Carolina and Newton. Different situation with different needs. Carolina have needs everywhere both offensively and defensively.

Peyton Manning · 21-04-2011 04:13PM

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Another reason why they shouldn't go QB at 1. Carolina are idiots and I hope they cop on and pick something that could be an instant help to them rather than a QB who will do fook all if he has no protection and a team around him that are failing miserably. No way as a QB to start. And they wonder why questions are asked of Clausen. A QB on that team will never be able to look good with sh1te around him.

Well that's the thing, had they a second round pick they could have justified picking Newton first and picking an OT in the second were there an OT of sufficient quality available. However, even if you ignore the fact they don't have a second, the the OT depth isnt that great in this draft (Tyron Smith is the only one I'd spend a first round pick) that's why I reckon they're better off trading down to pick up Smith, and picking up a QB in the later rounds.Had they a second, I think picking Newton first and one of Carimi / Castonzo in the second would have been justifiable. Now, as they are, picking Newton first and not being able to address any other position until the 3rd isn't a good spot for them. Trading down, picking Smith and one of the other QB's I mentioned later on would make more sense.

NFL DRAFT 2011

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