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Sealing where a velux meets the plasterboard to stop draughts?

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2

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    #32
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    brendankelly wrote: »
    I find it very disturbing that someone could get the job of foreman that did not know that plaster should be put on in 2 coats. And even more disturbing that there are so many cowboys doing sub standard work and getting away with it.

    Don't be disturbed brendan.......i was in charge of the lads putting up the suspended ceilings and the metal stud partitions.
    I had nothing to do with the plasterers.....just my observation that i thought plaster was a one coat process.
    I've never had any trouble with my end of work and i've laid out jobs from intel to new schools in london......and still i get calls from people i worked with asking me to work for them so i think i've done something right over the past 10 or 12 years.
    As the saying goes "when i leave for work in the morning i leave my horse at the house and cowboy hat on the table";)


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    #33
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Don't be disturbed brendan.......i was in charge of the lads putting up the suspended ceilings and the metal stud partitions.
    I had nothing to do with the plasterers.....just my observation that i thought plaster was a one coat process.
    I've never had any trouble with my end of work and i've laid out jobs from intel to new schools in london......and still i get calls from people i worked with asking me to work for them so i think i've done something right over the past 10 or 12 years.
    As the saying goes "when i leave for work in the morning i leave my horse at the house and cowboy hat on the table";)

    Well at least you now have learned how plastering should be done and you might correct the statement you made on the costs forum where you stated the cost for skimming was 5 e per sq meter.


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    #34
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    paddy147 wrote: »
    FFS lads,take it somewhere else.

    The op asked how to seal the gap around a Velux and keep draughts out,not about how to plaster a wall or ceiling or how many coats of plaster should be done when plastering.

    Give it a rest now.

    im surprised he hasn't try to sell him a bag of lime plaster lol:D


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    #35
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    gsxr1 wrote: »
    im surprised he hasn't try to sell him a bag of lime plaster lol:D

    The Op has a draught at his velux window and is been given ""advice""" by people that know nothing about plastering and you find this a reason to make a joke about it. (I do not think its funny)

    If wind can get in so can moisture and it is not rocket science to know that moisture and rafters/plaster board do not mix and the advice is to cover up the problem and hope it goes away.

    Also I do not try to sell bags of lime or lime plaster. I do not do gypsum skimming and it appears that there were only 3 people on this thread that knew how before this topic started.


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    #36
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    OP wind can get through a velux flashing kit and stay completely dry .

    Just seal it internally Your painting is grand. And your house is not going to fall over.

    Brendan is just going into one .


    Again.


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    #37
    eosirl08.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭eosirl08.


    gsxr1 wrote: »
    again with the drama. :)

    Just caulk it.

    fixed.

    please listen to this man and the problem will be solved its not rocket science


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    #38
    DonalK1981
    Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭DonalK1981


    That window should only let in a draught if it's open! I'd be pretty annoyed if I paid to get nice windows fitted and there was a problem with them. Get the builder to sort the issue out. No way is it acceptable you to have more expense above what was already paid.


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    #39
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    Of course it should not be acceptable and the response shows the contempt some have for the self build/DIY people. ""Awe sure it will be grand luv, a bit of silly cone will fix it, velux windows are designed to let in a bit of air but they are guaranteed to keep snow out in June"". etc etc.

    On a Zero energy house. The test after the fermecell boarding and plastering was done showed a 10 mm sq air escape in the entire house. The house must have 20 windows and doors. That would be at max a half of a sq mm gap per window and door, not to even take into account of the other areas like water pipes etc.


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    #40
    saltandpepper10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭saltandpepper10


    fair play to you brendan you are obviously passionte about your trade and this is to be admired,far too many yahoos going about paticularly in the wet trades


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    #41
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    Thanks saltandpepper.

    I feel sorry for the self build/ DIY people. They come on these forums expecting good advise only to be told that windows should allow draughts in when fitted. To tell someone wind can get through without wetting timber and plasterboard beggars belief. Soon the mould will appear and then the advice will be to spray it with chemicals. My heart goes out to the victims of these con men.


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    #42
    heinbloed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Since the load exposure differs for window and wall/roof there will be no airtight sealing with the shown solution. Go to the Velux company and ask them, or any real window installer/carpenter.
    Either the loads are equalized (spread to frame and background), for example by counterbatting, or a flexible sealer has to be installed between frame and wall.
    The plaster-on-timber method is an amateur's mistake. Not suitable for an airtight sealing.

    The most common solution in the shown case (i.e. the fastest and cheapest) is compression tape covered with mastix.


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    #43
    DonalK1981
    Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭DonalK1981


    heinbloed wrote: »
    Since the load exposure differs for window and wall/roof there will be no airtight sealing with the shown solution. Go to the Velux company and ask them, or any real window installer/carpenter.
    Either the loads are equalized (spread to frame and background), for example by counterbatting, or a flexible sealer has to be installed between frame and wall.
    The plaster-on-timber method is an amateur's mistake. Not suitable for an airtight sealing.

    The most common solution in the shown case (i.e. the fastest and cheapest) is compression tape covered with mastix.

    There is a more fair way of getting this sorted. Return to the original cowboys, tell them if the work is not completed to the proper standard that there will be a court case. Their workmanship left a lot to be desired. If left like this in a few years dampness etc. would or could cost quite a bit to repair. By that time the chance of legal action will have expired...


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    #44
    heinbloed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Agreed on, DonalK1981.

    The OP wrote:
    the cracks between the velux and plasterboard i would put down to general movement between timber and plaster... the plasterer actually was very good. how you finish between the velux and plasterboard i don't know.

    Who is to blame?

    The setting of the window should include the airtight sealing. Two trade persons not knowing about each other's plans are hardly pulling the same cord.
    The OP should have prepared the correct detailing for each trade. Velux might have these available, a reference to these details for both trades (carpenter AND plasterer) would have saved a lot of work.


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    #45
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    I think that everyone except mfceilings, gsxr1 and snyper agrees the workmanship is poor and silly cone is nor the solution.

    I suspect this is a self build so this rules out legal action. If the people that did this work were local they might repair it with the threat of legal action. If the velux was fitted properly there is no way there would be a draught see http://www.velux.ie/private/get_inspired/replacement/tradetoolkit/bestpractice/installationinslate Other than that the OP should get a proper carpenter to fit the velux properly with the air tight seal and a plasterer to plaster it properly.


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    #46
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Get you facts straight brendan......nowhere in any of my posts did i mention "bad workmanship".
    Yes the bush marks when painting leave a lot to be desired but as for the original fitting of the velux - that's for the OP and whoever fitted it to come to an agreement.
    Please don't post rubbish telling me what i said - read the posts - it's not that difficult.


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    #47
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    brendankelly wrote: »
    I think that everyone except mfceilings, gsxr1 and snyper agrees the workmanship is poor and silly cone is nor the solution.

    I suspect this is a self build so this rules out legal action. If the people that did this work were local they might repair it with the threat of legal action. If the velux was fitted properly there is no way there would be a draught see http://www.velux.ie/private/get_inspired/replacement/tradetoolkit/bestpractice/installationinslate Other than that the OP should get a proper carpenter to fit the velux properly with the air tight seal and a plasterer to plaster it properly.


    You are over reacting Brendan.

    With out inspecting the work personally you are telling a lad to get a chippy to rip out all the velux which would involve extensive internal and external construction work.. Thats a lot of disruption in a persons life. I will not speculate on the problem as I am not there to look at it.
    Im all for doing a job correctly and practice it every day.
    But weighting up a small draft that can be simply cured with chalking to a scaffolding set up, tiles and felt up. plaster board and plaster destruction, new flashing kit, new installation with all the cost and dirt that goes with it.


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    #48
    DonalK1981
    Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭DonalK1981


    gsxr1 wrote: »
    You are over reacting Brendan.

    With out inspecting the work personally you are telling a lad to get a chippy to rip out all the velux which would involve extensive internal and external construction work.. Thats a lot of disruption in a persons life. I will not speculate on the problem as I am not there to look at it.
    Im all for doing a job correctly and practice it every day.
    But weighting up a small draft that can be simply cured with chalking to a scaffolding set up, tiles and felt up. plaster board and plaster destruction, new flashing kit, new installation with all the cost and dirt that goes with it.

    Pity someone like you or the more qualified persons didn't undertake the job and do it properly in the first place, then the OP might not have to scaffold, set up, tiles and felt up. plaster board and plaster destruction, new flashing kit, new installation with all the cost and dirt that goes with it, as you say. I believe whoever fitted it should be made, at their expense, fix the problem. A court might even make them pay punitive damages, for the disruption caused by the shoddy work leading to the disruption in the OP's life.


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    #49
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    It fine to tell someone to do all that, but without doing a site visit im not going to tell someone to do that, when in reality, they're not going to do it.


    The window maybe poorly fitted, certainly the plasterboaard is not covering the window enough, however without being out on the site the draft may not be comming from outside,if less likley, but not impossible that the draft is internal from the different air temp in the attic / roof space and living area, its also possible that there is a faulty vent in the window, or that the seal in the window frame is damaged, so when closed its still letting in air.

    With the best will in the world, i cannot blaim any one specific person until i was actually on site, it could be the roofer, the slabber or the plasterer or the window itself


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    #50
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Get you facts straight brendan......nowhere in any of my posts did i mention "bad workmanship".
    Yes the bush marks when painting leave a lot to be desired but as for the original fitting of the velux - that's for the OP and whoever fitted it to come to an agreement.
    Please don't post rubbish telling me what i said - read the posts - it's not that difficult.


    You said it all when you stated that you are aligned with people that do not know how to plaster. You also stated that you knew skimmers that work for 5 e a meter.
    Ryanair tradesmen and a few mushroom contractors are all that would work for that.


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    #51
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    snyper wrote: »
    It fine to tell someone to do all that, but without doing a site visit im not going to tell someone to do that, when in reality, they're not going to do it.


    The window maybe poorly fitted, certainly the plasterboaard is not covering the window enough, however without being out on the site the draft may not be comming from outside,if less likley, but not impossible that the draft is internal from the different air temp in the attic / roof space and living area, its also possible that there is a faulty vent in the window, or that the seal in the window frame is damaged, so when closed its still letting in air.

    With the best will in the world, i cannot blaim any one specific person until i was actually on site, it could be the roofer, the slabber or the plasterer or the window itself

    Jesus it get worse. The draft is coming from the attic/roof space.

    I do not have to do a site visit to know there is no attic/roof space over a velux window.

    God help us.


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    #52
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    . from knowing how veluxs are fitted. And put together . They are drafty.
    The one shown in the vid is not common. Slate flashing kits.

    the brackets that come with a velux is set it up on the battons .( Tiles versions) Which are rough 50mm battons. There is space between the opening and the window frame. There has to be. It does not say anything about using fiberglass to seal this gap on the instructions (unless it has changed in the last year). On tiles there is a very sloppy foam seal to prevent drafts . It does not work very well and falls off sometimes .

    I recently did my own attic and sealed around the opening with fiberglass and then brought the vapour barrier all the way into the op and duct taped it to the velux frame before plasterboard. No visible holes. And even after all that, there is still a small draft. Somewhere .. They are known as big outlets for heat and very tricky to seal from wind hitting the roof and blowing hard under the tiles and felt. I have fitted a good few of them over the years

    The only reason I can think of for movement is that the brackets where nailed down instead of screwed with the suppled aluminum screws . Which in turn has come lose.
    The plasterboard and the plastering are not perfect. That is clear. I have worked (for a short time) with builders who just dont care about detail. Get the house up and finished . Thats all they care about. Unfortunately the bad plastering you see here is everywhere. Boom houses. Thats just the way it is. Go into big estates of the boom years. Like Balbrigan. Lovely looking houses when new. 5 years later they have dryed out and cracked like eggs everywhere. Builders gone bust . No one to claim from.


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    #53
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    Sorry Snyper, I stand corrected, very well spotted.

    In my defence we have one guy that managed to con his way to become a foreman over a metal stud/plasterboard/plastering buisness that does not know how plastering should be done and another that has been fitting them and leaving drafts in them for years and jokes about it.

    There are velux windows in the zero energy house and there is ZERO drafts. I did not fit the velux but it was fitted properly and if it can be done on one house it could be done on every house.


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    #54
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    brendankelly wrote: »
    You said it all when you stated that you are aligned with people that do not know how to plaster. You also stated that you knew skimmers that work for 5 e a meter.
    Ryanair tradesmen and a few mushroom contractors are all that would work for that.


    Correction they do know how to plaster - you maintain skim coat is put on then put on again - i've never, ever seen this done.
    Even when we had site visits from gypsum (every week on a certain job) did they ever stop the plasterers and ask why they didn't put on gypsum skim in 2 coats.
    The gypsum rep told us that plasterboard is 12.5mm because the skim coat should be no more than 2.5mm which when boarded and skimmed both sides of a 70mm metal stud partition equals 100mm.
    As for the 5 euro a square metre - that is a labour only price and is the going rate for dublin.
    You maintain €12 a metre - i have a friend who served his time with a company where the owner is a member of the CIF, the building limes forum scotland, the georgian society and listed with the dublin civic trust - he told me that if you want to pay €12 a metre he will leave dublin and go to wherever you want him to!!


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    #55
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    MF, the "second" coat is and isnt a second coat. The second coat is applied alot lighter than the first coat, - i prefer to use a pvc float on for the second coat, essentially you are using it to even out the first coat, its done as the first layer begins to dry - now ive seen plasterers use the steel trowel on the second coat, but i fnd its not as good at evening out the skim as it doesnt pull out the humps and fill the hollows as well because the steel trowel is smooth - its my fathers way and now my way and hes old school.

    Im sure that there are skimmers that night not apply a second coat, i wouldnt judge them until ive seen their work, but in essance, one two or 12 coats is not the problem the op has its the fact the crack has appeared at the window, and the only fault i can really make (other than the way the slab is fitted) is that the skimmer didnt pull the trowel from the windows edge enough hence its a bit rough looking (granted ive seen worse)

    Brendan,im not overly familiar with airtightness, but as far as i know - and i stand to be corrected, the air tightness membrane is enveloping the habitable areas of the house - the house fabric ie the roof, still needs to breath, so as far as i know the attic space if not a habitable one is outide of the membrane, in which case the velux flashings will be too.

    The more i think about it the more i suspect if there is a draft, it might be comming from the vent in the window


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    #56
    saltandpepper10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭saltandpepper10


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Correction they do know how to plaster - you maintain skim coat is put on then put on again - i've never, ever seen this done.
    Even when we had site visits from gypsum (every week on a certain job) did they ever stop the plasterers and ask why they didn't put on gypsum skim in 2 coats.
    The gypsum rep told us that plasterboard is 12.5mm because the skim coat should be no more than 2.5mm which when boarded and skimmed both sides of a 70mm metal stud partition equals 100mm.
    As for the 5 euro a square metre - that is a labour only price and is the going rate for dublin.
    You maintain €12 a metre - i have a friend who served his time with a company where the owner is a member of the CIF, the building limes forum scotland, the georgian society and listed with the dublin civic trust - he told me that if you want to pay €12 a metre he will leave dublin and go to wherever you want him to!!
    honestly mf its always a two coat process anything else is a diy bodge at best which really shows up when painted.all your expieriance is in taping and jointing i would imagine ,which can also be a high quality finish when done right,but brendan is completely rite on this one


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    #57
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Correction they do know how to plaster - you maintain skim coat is put on then put on again - i've never, ever seen this done.
    Even when we had site visits from gypsum (every week on a certain job) did they ever stop the plasterers and ask why they didn't put on gypsum skim in 2 coats.
    The gypsum rep told us that plasterboard is 12.5mm because the skim coat should be no more than 2.5mm which when boarded and skimmed both sides of a 70mm metal stud partition equals 100mm.
    As for the 5 euro a square metre - that is a labour only price and is the going rate for dublin.
    You maintain €12 a metre - i have a friend who served his time with a company where the owner is a member of the CIF, the building limes forum scotland, the georgian society and listed with the dublin civic trust - he told me that if you want to pay €12 a metre he will leave dublin and go to wherever you want him to!!


    Mother of God but what next???. You are now telling us that a stud partition should only be 100 mm thick.

    The metal stud replaced the 4 by 2 which is 100mm. The 4 by 2 , boarded is 125 mm and the doorframe is 5 and a quarter or 133 mm. Therefore 8 mm skimming. That is 2 coats.

    I do not know how you got away with single boarding stud partitions. Any time I saw them done they were double boarded and skimmed and the doorframe fitted perfectly. i.e. 70 mm stud, 50 mm boards and 6 to 8 mm skim = 5 1/4 inches the size of the doorframe. You must have made a fortune during the boom.

    As for your friend. He served his time as a lime plasterer and now you are trying to pawn him off as a gypsum plasterer. ?/. No thanks. He does not even know what he is.


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    #58
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    snyper wrote: »
    MF, the "second" coat is and isnt a second coat. The second coat is applied alot lighter than the first coat, - i prefer to use a pvc float on for the second coat, essentially you are using it to even out the first coat, its done as the first layer begins to dry - now ive seen plasterers use the steel trowel on the second coat, but i fnd its not as good at evening out the skim as it doesnt pull out the humps and fill the hollows as well because the steel trowel is smooth - its my fathers way and now my way and hes old school.

    Im sure that there are skimmers that night not apply a second coat, i wouldnt judge them until ive seen their work, but in essance, one two or 12 coats is not the problem the op has its the fact the crack has appeared at the window, and the only fault i can really make (other than the way the slab is fitted) is that the skimmer didnt pull the trowel from the windows edge enough hence its a bit rough looking (granted ive seen worse)

    Brendan,im not overly familiar with airtightness, but as far as i know - and i stand to be corrected, the air tightness membrane is enveloping the habitable areas of the house - the house fabric ie the roof, still needs to breath, so as far as i know the attic space if not a habitable one is outide of the membrane, in which case the velux flashings will be too.

    The more i think about it the more i suspect if there is a draft, it might be comming from the vent in the window

    I know vety little about it either. But BUT . We both know enough to know we know little about it.


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    #59
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    snyper wrote: »
    LOADMASTER
    Brendan,im not overly familiar with airtightness,

    dont worry. From reading his mental posts over the last year . I dont think he does either .


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    #60
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Sorry Brendan but I never conned my way into being a foreman. I simply got the job from being good at what I do..metal stud partitions, and MF Ceilings.

    Metal stud comes in 50mm, 70mm, 90mm and 146mm. Have you ever been on a building site or read a set of drawings? Some jobs specify 1 layer of Plasterboard on each side of the walls, some are double sided, some are fire rated, some are non fire rated, some have soundblock board, some have moisture board, some are shaft wall detail...in other words...what the architect specifies on the drawing is what you obey.
    I hope you understand this...no 2 jobs are the same.
    By the way I never made a fortune during the boom..
    As a side note...if you want references of the quality of my work I will pm you some of the happy boards members I have worked for recently....word of mouth recommendations are hard to beat!


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    #61
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Correction they do know how to plaster - you maintain skim coat is put on then put on again - i've never, ever seen this done.
    Even when we had site visits from gypsum (every week on a certain job) did they ever stop the plasterers and ask why they didn't put on gypsum skim in 2 coats.
    The gypsum rep told us that plasterboard is 12.5mm because the skim coat should be no more than 2.5mm which when boarded and skimmed both sides of a 70mm metal stud partition equals 100mm.
    As for the 5 euro a square metre - that is a labour only price and is the going rate for dublin.
    You maintain €12 a metre - i have a friend who served his time with a company where the owner is a member of the CIF, the building limes forum scotland, the georgian society and listed with the dublin civic trust - he told me that if you want to pay €12 a metre he will leave dublin and go to wherever you want him to!!


    I would safely bet I was on building sites before you were born and judging from your post will be on sites after you.

    I do not want any references but I would like the details of the person that signed off on a single boarded 70 mm metal stud partition and the details of architects that specify single leaf boarding for partition walls.


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