Dublin Bus Flat Fare?

You really want people to move to annual tickets - it gives the user the best value and the transport organisations a secure income on which they can plan their services. It would also encourage people to use public transport as they have paid for it already.

For pay-as-you-go smartcards, depending on where you pitch each fare the percentage of people paying each of those fares will vary. €3 does seem a little high and €1.20 seems a bit low - that much of a difference and everyone will switch to smartcards and you won't have enough income.

bk wrote: »

If you made the cash fare 2.50, then the smart card fare would only need to be 1.30 per my numbers.

Sure you can adjust the difference between the cash and card fare however you like. Personally I prefer giving it as wide a gap as possible as it would drive smart card take up more and all the resulting benefits of that and the cheaper you can make the card fare (at least initially), the more you are likely to drive increase numbers using buses.

Your numbers don't account for people on annual/monthly/weekly tickets, who make as many journeys they like at no extra cost per journey.

Since it can be reasonable assumed that the people who buy these would otherwise be paying more on a per-journey basis, you will have to raise the cost of your individual fares to keep it revenue neutral.

I would suggest 1.60 / 2.50 personally.

There is always the possibility of zoned fares: maybe inside/outside the M50 with inside the M50 being 1.40 / 2.00 and outside being 1.80 / 2.50 or the like.

It is a very interesting discussion.

However, some points of fact.

1. The average fare you have calculated includes childrens' fares, and the discounts people already get for using the various sorts of tickets. Some of the DB drivers should be able to give an idea of how many fares are children's fares. You would need to factor this into your calculation if you want to retain the distinction between child and adult fares and student discounts. (But perhaps it would be better to get rid of these?)

2. The average fare also includes social welfare. Social welfare payment is not a subsidy, it is considered regular revenue, as far as I know.

3. Some of these discounted fares are the result of using something like a rambler card to make a two-part journey. Again, you would need to factor this in to figure out a 'true' average fare. And you would have to decide if it was your priority to have a flat fare on buses or a multimodal single fare.

4. This is a bit of a by-the-by, but the subsidy has actually been increasing year-on-year, if you calculate on a per-customer basis. We also looked at the subsidy in London here before, and it isn't an awful lot higher than in Dublin, if you average it out per bus. The London situation is quite different too. (Remember, as well as the cash subsidy from the exchequer, there are also subsidies from two other sources - capital grants, which you can find in the accounts under depreciation and funds taken directly from other state owned businesses, i.e., DB's commercial services)

5. Integrated ticketing is an expensive system to run. It is currently budgeted at around EUR 6m and it could increase from there.

The biggest issue I see is one of who should pay for our public transport system. Under a flat fare arrangement people close to the city who travel few miles, would be greatly subsidising people in the outer reaches of the bus system. The relatively high fare that results will discourage these customers from using the system.

This might work well in a dense, compact city, but the Dublin Bus zone is actually massive. It would be a lot to expect to be able to get a bus from Donabate or Blessington to the other side of the city for 1.60 (or whatever). London is massive too, but the situation is a bit different, in that there is a good bit more density, and the whole bus strategy and has a strategiy context of needing to relieve demand from the highly subsidised Underground system.

bk wrote: »

While I can certainly see the attraction to DB, I don't see annual tickets being attractive to most commuters, the upfront cost is just too high.

Most people with annual tickets purchase them under the taxsaver scheme via their employer. This often means the cost is spread over 12 months, so it isn't hit that hard.

If we take just the pure Dublin Bus ticket -- that's €1000 currently. For those fortunate enough to be on the 41% tax bracket, this means they effectively only pay €480 (€690 for those in the 20% bracket). Paid monthly, this is €40/month (or €57.50/month). A €1.50 smart card fare would mean that they'd be paying €3.00 a day just for their work commute. As such, if on average they work more than 13 days (or 19 on low-tax) a month, they'd be better off with the annual pass. That also doesn't take into account the fact that the annual ticket also includes Nitelink, and the fact that some people like to catch the buses on weekends / leisure purposes outside their daily commute makes the fact that the annual passes are often the best way to travel on DB if you can get it under Taxsaver.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I think the figure is going to be up around 1.90 for a flat fare by the time you are done, rather than 1.20 or 1.30.


The DSP is unlikely to agree to pay the full fare for its passengers, since it would need more budget.


Yes, it is all the services. But DB is 65 or more percent of journeys in Dublin.


That's the problem. More users would mean more buses would be required. This drives up the cost base.

Tagging on and off is really quick. It won't impact on boarding times that much.

Everything in public transport is connected to everything else, but this is really a separate issue. I would not rely on improving or changing the routes as a basis for resolving the fare issue. You're not going to be able to serve outer suburbs with express services on a Sunday or late at night, say.

The real key to free up money to do some or all of the good ideas you put forward is to address operating costs of the services.

Quite an excellent thread all round.

So much to mull over,but I find Antoin`s opinions to be generally well focused from an operators perspective.

Many people still fail to realize that the general availability of a €1.20 Bus Fare is an absolute steal,especially if it can be stretched a bit with some judicious over-riding.

Other threads on Boards in recent days have confirmed my observations that Dublin bus has rather suddenly and noticeably "grown a pair" in relation to Revenue Control.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056237905

Post #15 in the above thread is relevant.

This week alone I have witnessed 3 Revenue Checks in the City Centre which resulted in buses being held for inspection purposes.

A major part of the problem is that a laissez-faire attituide has become enshrined within Dublin Bus over the past 20 years which led people to believe that payment of the correct fare was entirely discretionary,as was/is possession of an appropriate pass.

The last official statistics I saw from the company put Fare Evasion (from memory) at below 2%.

Most Busdrivers reading that were somewhat underwhelmed and could be excused a mild guffaw.

However,the worrying aspect is whether or not Senior DB Management were formulating Business Plans on such dubious baseline figures.

Since the disappearance of regular Revenue Control Inspections in favour of "Blitzes",usually along QBC's the risks of detection became virtually nil for a serial evader.

Similarly the DSP Free Travel Scheme and it`s somewhat less than onerous requirements became an irrelevancy to most persons who considered themselves entitled to unrestricted Free Travel for themselves and their companion/s.

Now,as the State and it`s agencies face financial ruin,there is a sudden mad rush to claw-back on the principles which have always governed Public Transport in an attempt to stabilize the ship.

It's a high-risk strategy and is not going down well at all with the masses,but that is entirely due to slack management and a desire to be seen as "nice" or "all inclusive" even to those intent on abusing the services and systems we all need.

I have a personal attitude which,in simplistic terms,focuses my attention on serving those customers who do make the attempt to contribute to the effecticient operation of their service.

These people still make up the silent majority of customers,but it is they who are continually asked to take-the-hit as the gain`s they so assidiously strive to maintain are thrown away as we bend our systems over backways to facilitate an ever-expanding group of non-compliant,vexatious customers who'se self-centredness knows no bounds.

In simplistic terms it can be best illustrated by the individual boarding a bus on a wet,cold miserable day,grumbling about how long they're waiting,only then beginning the long fraught process of fumbling for change,whilst behind them a line of customers stand passively with rain dripping down their noses and the correct fare ready...even the Pre-Paid/Smartcard ticket holder must wait in line,as usually,our ill-tempered self-centred individual will have positioned themselves and their baggage in such a manner as to cause maximum restriction....this scenario can and does occur several times at busy stops on individual journeys,a fact which can be validated any day by standing along O Connell St and observing the busier routes such as the 16/A or 4,11,19/A.

This nonsense has to stop

In City Centre terms Dublin has taken great strides in managing it`s Traffic Flows and all credit should be given for that.

However,having made these improvements it beggars belief that we persist in a fare collection system designed for Two Person Operation,with a cheery old conductor whistling and singing his/her way around the bus to do the meeting,greeting and crossing the palm with silver tricks.

Zero Delay on Boarding should be the target.

Minimize those dwell times and the results will percolate down to the benefit of EVERYBODY.

There may even be something in the suggestion of making ALL Public Transport journeys DSP funded and eliminating all faffing about on boarding.

Remember those "lucky enough to have a job" are paying a "Universal Social Charge" after all,which could be construed as paying for those old "Social Services"......such as Public Transport

It would be a very interesting exercise to see exactly how the DSP accounts for it's Free Travel Scheme spending as it surely remains one of the great mysteries left in Irish Public Administration.....;)