Vote YES or NO here for a United Ireland.

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:08PM

Einhard wrote: »

I voted AJ. I'd like a United Ireland, but only is a substantial majority in the North wished it too. The idea of deciding such a contentious, divisive issue on the basis of a 50% + 1 poll is, IMO, wrong. It would lead to chaos up North as a massive minority were forced into a state with which they want nothing to do. I know that that is the case with the Nationalists at present, but at least that is the status quo, and they have accepted the situation, to an extent. To turn around and state that, as of tomorrow, or next month, the 6 counties will be part of the Republic would lead to violence and chaos on the streets, and throw the entire country into tumult. So, yes, I want a united Ireland; i don;t want it though until a significant majority desire the same.

Actually that's a VERY good point, Einhard. How much would you consider a substancial majority? 75%-80%

Don't forget the folks down south would need a vote too.

Wolfe Tone · 19-04-2011 02:08PM

Einhard wrote: »

I realise that. I can acknowledge reality, and yet still disagree with it. No shifting of the goalposts at all.

I'm not that enamoured by a United Ireland that I'd be willing to see blood shed for it. Is it worth more death, murder, and chaos? Not IMO. certainly don;t want to live in a state where a large minority live in sullen, and often violent resentment.

So fcuk the Irish minority up north? Dont forget the unionists AGREED to this. Signed away their future for short term security, rather foolish.

The size of the majority doesnt matter. If it was 70% nationalist it would make little difference. If the diehard loyalists wanted to kick off they would. Besides, very little to fear from then. They would have zero support from abroad. No yanks will be sending them money to buy weapons. No sympathetic Libyans to help them. Without their British handliers they will be no more dangerous than the drug gangs,which the UVF pretty much are anyway.

So again I ask, are you advocating that the GFA be abandoned? For terms which pretty much mean a UI will never happen? What a silly idea! Im surprised.

Einhard · 19-04-2011 02:10PM

Adrian009 wrote: »

Actually that's a VERY good point, Einhard. How much would you consider a substancial majority? 75%-80%

Don't forget the folks down south would need a vote too.

I think 75%-80% would be about right. A majority in the South, and that amount up North. There would have to be broad, cross community consensus up North before I'd be happy with a UI.

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:10PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I feel like it's a bit more complex than simple 'yes' or 'no'.

Certainly is. But it comes down to YES or NO in the end. So, how would you vote?

Badgermonkey · 19-04-2011 02:10PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I'd disagree, there is a higher proportion of republicans on here than in general society.

+1

Unfortunately, Wolfe lazily labels those who disagree with his brand of republican romanticism as 'Irish unionist'.

As an Irish democrat, I would support a united Ireland if and when the majority north and south wish it to be so.

Long term, semi-autonomous status under some form of joint authority is a far more likely scenario than a United Ireland imo.

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:11PM

Einhard wrote: »

I think 75%-80% would eb about right. A majority in the South, and that amount up North. There would have to be broad, cross community consensus up North before I'd be happy with a UI.

While we're on this point, how do you think people will vote - along traditional lines as per the community they were raised in, or having thought it out for themselves?

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:13PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So fcuk the Irish minority up north? Dont forget the unionists AGREED to this. Signed away their future for short term security, rather foolish.

The size of the majority doesnt matter. If it was 70% nationalist it would make little difference. If the diehard loyalists wanted to kick off they would. Besides, very little to fear from then. They would have zero support from abroad. No yanks will be sending them money to buy weapons. No sympathetic Libyans to help them. Without their British handliers they will be no more dangerous than the drug gangs,which the UVF pretty much are anyway.

So again I ask, are you advocating that the GFA be abandoned? For terms which pretty much mean a UI will never happen? What a silly idea! Im surprised.

Let me be the one to phrase it another way: would you support a UI even if it took a few more deaths to achieve it?

SV · 19-04-2011 02:15PM

It's hip to say you don't want one these days. Didn't ya know?

Wolfe Tone · 19-04-2011 02:16PM

Adrian009 wrote: »

Let me be the one to phrase it another way: would you support a UI even if it took a few more deaths to achieve it?

If you advocate capitulating democracy on the basis of the possible comeback of the Shankill butchers should you not also advocate, using that logic, that there should be a UI to prevent militant republican attacks?

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:19PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If you advocate capitulating democracy on the basis of the possible comeback of the Shankill butchers should you not also advocate, using that logic, that there should be a UI to prevent militant republican attacks?

To be honest, Wolfe, I think there will always be dissenters ready to kill for whatever version of Ireland they believe in, and not even a UI will solve that.

Einhard · 19-04-2011 02:20PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So fcuk the Irish minority up north? Dont forget the unionists AGREED to this. Signed away their future for short term security, rather foolish.

I never said that. I live in this Republic, and so my concern is with this Republic, ie the 26 counties. Were a huge Unionist minority forced to incorporate themselves into a UI, it would have massive reprecussions for the people of the 26 counties. As my concern is, first and foremost, with the people living in this country at the present, I wouldn't sh to put them, or this country, at risk for some Nationalist fantasy, imposed on a recalcitrant Unionist minority. It was wrong to force the 6 counties into Britain in 1921, and it would be equally wrong to force them into the Republic in 2011.

The size of the majority doesnt matter. If it was 70% nationalist it would make little difference. If the diehard loyalists wanted to kick off they would. Besides, very little to fear from then. They would have zero support from abroad. No yanks will be sending them money to buy weapons. No sympathetic Libyans to help them. Without their British handliers they will be no more dangerous than the drug gangs,which the UVF pretty much are anyway.

The size of the majority obviously matters. It's ridiculous to state otherwise. Had Unionist terrorists the suppor of 49% of the population of the North, it would give them far more credibility than had they the support of, say, 20%. The very fact that SF can condemn dissident activity illustrates this.

So again I ask, are you advocating that the GFA be abandoned? For terms which pretty much mean a UI will never happen? What a silly idea! Im surprised.

Oh don't be so bloody melodramatic! If I don't support the actions of this government, does it mean that I wish them to be overthrown?! I support the GFA because it was democratically agreed- however, I have serious concerns about it, and wouldn't like to see a large minority forced into the Republic against their will. You seem perfectly willing to accept bloodshed and mayhem to obtain your goals- I'm not.

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:20PM

SV wrote: »

It's hip to say you don't want one these days. Didn't ya know?

Really? Why so?

And I'd want the vote to be much more decisive in the real world than the neck-and-neck race we have here.

Tomebagel · 19-04-2011 02:21PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

100 pages of the same arguments we had before, pretty sure a majority said they would like a UI.

Regardless, if a referendum was held on an all island basis, we would have a UI.

AH has a disproportionate amount of what I can only describe as "Irish unionists" and if such a referendum where to held in the 26 the "yes" side would easily win. Unification is a stated aim of every major political party.

I agree,think its because after hours is made up off mostly members from inside the pale!

RJGMovie · 19-04-2011 02:22PM

We should never have left the UK. Look at the mess we have made. Maybe the Queen will invite us back when she comes?

stovelid · 19-04-2011 02:23PM

Not against it and even have a residual romantic attachment to the idea but I'm fucked if I want the finanical or human cost of the security headache and to shift a statelet that is even more economically moribund than here (essnetially a gigantic branch of the UK public sector) off the tit of the British exchequer and on to ours.

Given the fury about the reduction in our living circumstances and the bottom-line/ self-interest nature of our electorate, I would also question how strong the actual support would be for reunification once the security and financial aspects were fully pored over.

Ideals or higher taxes? I think I can guess the answer if the witch-hunting in here is anything to go by...

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:24PM

Tomebagel wrote: »

I agree,think its because after hours is made up off mostly members from inside the pale!

Well there's nothing we can do about that! And so what? They're entitled to their opinion.

Einhard · 19-04-2011 02:26PM

Tomebagel wrote: »

I agree,think its because after hours is made up off mostly members from inside the pale!

And anyone who wants a UI Ireland at all costs is a nationalist fanatic who supported the IRA murders of innocent civilians!

Gee, this idiotic generalisation game is fun!

:rolleyes:

stovelid · 19-04-2011 02:29PM

Tomebagel wrote: »

I agree,think its because after hours is made up off mostly members from inside the pale!

Hence not as likely to be silage-encrusted 'Ra apologists.

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:29PM

Einhard wrote: »

And anyone who wants a UI Ireland at all costs is a nationalist fanatic who supported the IRA murders of innocent civilians!

Gee, this idiotic generalisation game is fun!

:rolleyes:

Indeed.

Though frighteningly enough, nationalist fanatics did indeed/do support/ed the murder of innocent civilians by the IRA.:(

Bruthal · 19-04-2011 02:29PM

Hogzy wrote: »

Not one of these fucking things again.

NOBODY GIVES A TOSS

It must be one of those automated response as i thought i seen it before alright...

Hogzy wrote: »

Not one of these threads again

Why it bothers you so much is a mystery.

super_furry · 19-04-2011 02:31PM

It's a nice idea but the financial and security costs would be too steep and the majority of people living in Northern Ireland still don't want it to happen.

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:32PM

stovelid wrote: »

Hence not as likely to be silage-encrusted 'Ra apologists.

Nah, they have them both urban and rural. What's the breakdown of SF TD's again

?

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:33PM

stovelid wrote: »

Not against it and even have a residual romantic attachment to the idea but I'm fucked if I want the finanical or human cost of the security headache and to shift a statelet that is even more economically moribund than here (essnetially a gigantic branch of the UK public sector) off the tit of the British exchequer and on to ours.

Given the fury about the reduction in our living circumstances and the bottom-line/ self-interest nature of our electorate, I would also question how strong the actual support would be for reunification once the security and financial aspects were fully pored over.

Ideals or higher taxes? I think I can guess the answer if the witch-hunting in here is anything to go by...

Point! I'm suprised at how close the vote is so far.

Poccington · 19-04-2011 02:34PM

Tomebagel wrote: »

I agree,think its because after hours is made up off mostly members from inside the pale!

Obviously.

Cause we all know everyone from outside the Pale are the second coming of Tom Barry or Dan Breen. :rolleyes:

Da Shins Kelly · 19-04-2011 02:37PM

Adrian009 wrote: »

Certainly is. But it comes down to YES or NO in the end. So, how would you vote?

Well, I'd have to know what the conditions are (which I'm sure are many) before I could possibly vote on it. Ideally, I would love to see a united Ireland, but I would have to see how both the British and Irish governments propose making it work, as well as how all the communities involved are going to pull together to try and make the best of it.

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:37PM

super_furry wrote: »

It's a nice idea but the financial and security costs would be too steep and the majority of people living in Northern Ireland still don't want it to happen.

I think most people down south feel the same. Am I wrong?:(

Orando Broom · 19-04-2011 02:40PM

I would love to see a united Ireland, but I would love to see it only united when it is beneficial to both sides of the divide. I don't think having 700,000 disenfranchised, Ulster protestants would benefit Ireland and could lead to an internecine terror campaign that would bury what is left of this currently broken country. As someone said here 65% of the North's population work in public service. How could you integrate that? How could you integrate the PSNI and AGS?

Both societies are so fücked that uniting them would be mutually destructive.

Wolfe Tone · 19-04-2011 02:43PM

Adrian009 wrote: »

Point! I'm suprised at how close the vote is so far.

The views, polls in particular, you will get on AH are not reflective of the wider community, which is a bit of a pain.

Take the fact that a poll on gay marraige or whatever would easily get a yes vote here, but in real life it wouldnt, or certainly not by as high a margin.

Internet polls are meaningless. Or maybe The Wolfe Tones 'A nation once Again' really is the best song ever.

Adrian009 · 19-04-2011 02:44PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Both societies are so ****ed that uniting them would be mutually destructive.

I think you're right.

So why then are SF so keen on it? Why can't they quietly move to more important issues?:(

Chnandler Bong · 19-04-2011 02:46PM

Adrian009 wrote: »

I think you're right.

So why then are SF so keen on it? Why can't they quietly move to more important issues?:(

They also want to Default on our EU/IMF Bailout, enough said...:rolleyes:

Vote YES or NO here for a United Ireland.

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