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Can you simply be Agnostic?

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Comments

  • #212
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well the whole softly softly approach of the church since Vatican II means that I learn more about Catholic doctrine from debates like this than I ever did at home or at school. But so far I have not come across anything about the Church's teachings that would contradict my own beliefs.

    So you buy into the whole supernatural thing... ...I'm guessing you do.


  • #213
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    So you buy into the whole supernatural thing... ...I'm guessing you do.

    I buy into the spiritual thing ya, Supernatural suggests shows like Most Haunted to me, that would not really be my kind of thing.


  • #214
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well the whole softly softly approach of the church since Vatican II means that I learn more about Catholic doctrine from debates like this than I ever did at home or at school. But so far I have not come across anything about the Church's teachings that would contradict my own beliefs.

    What is it exactly, in your own opinion, that defines whether someone is or isn't a catholic?


  • #215
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well the whole softly softly approach of the church since Vatican II means that I learn more about Catholic doctrine from debates like this than I ever did at home or at school. But so far I have not come across anything about the Church's teachings that would contradict my own beliefs.
    Homosexual acts are wrong.
    Masturbation is wrong.
    Contraception is wrong.
    Sex before marriage is wrong.
    Abortion is wrong.
    At mass, bread and wine are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus.
    The pope is infallible when speaking on matters of faith.
    ...

    Really?


  • #216
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    yawha wrote: »
    Homosexual acts are wrong.
    Masturbation is wrong.
    Contraception is wrong.
    Sex before marriage is wrong.
    Abortion is wrong.
    At mass, bread and wine are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus.
    The pope is infallible when speaking on matters of faith.
    ...

    Really?

    Ah, Well I can see how my post may have been misinterpreted, I meant in relation to the nature of god.

    Oh, And yes I do believe abortion is wrong.


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  • #217
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    yawha wrote: »
    Homosexual acts are wrong.
    Masturbation is wrong. (not in and of itself, but in the fact that one would have to lust after someone in order to do this)
    Contraception is wrong.
    Sex before marriage is wrong.
    Abortion is wrong. (with exception of threat to the life of the mother, it is better to save a life than to lose two)
    At mass, bread and wine are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus.
    The pope is infallible when speaking on matters of faith.

    Really?

    Here's how I hold up as a non-Catholic.

    Many of these are tenets of mere Christianity rather than Catholicism.
    Although there is much more to faith than these clichéd tenets.


  • #218
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Newsflash deise, you aren't catholic. At least you know now.


  • #219
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Ah, Well I can see how my post may have been misinterpreted, I meant in relation to the nature of god.

    Oh, And yes I do believe abortion is wrong.

    Hallo. That is the nature of the catholic god.


  • #220
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I do believe abortion is wrong.
    You're aware that the Vatican only took up its current opposition to abortion in the late 19th century? Prior to that, its objections wavered between moderate to non-existent.


  • #221
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    deise go deo wrote: »
    To phrase it more clearly, god would not bound by the constraints of time, but can interact with it as he sees fit.
    Am I seeing a variation on the God moves in mysterious ways argument here? Yes, it makes no sense that the universe seemed to create itself out of nothing 13 billion years ago, but that it's creator only dropped by during the human bronze age to let people know of the Grand Plan?
    deise go deo wrote: »
    And of course the whole 14 billion years twiddeling his thumbs idea would kind of suggest that if a god created the Universe, then the only thing he put in it of any interest to him is us. That is a little self centred for me.
    I agree it's completely self-centred to believe we are the only thing of note (to who?) in the universe. But unless a believer engages in mental gymnastics and more than a little disingenuousness - religion is the prime perpetrator of the notion that everything was created for us.


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  • #222
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    robindch wrote: »
    You're aware that the Vatican only took up its current opposition to abortion in the late 19th century? Prior to that, its objections wavered between moderate to non-existent.

    To be honest it dosent really matter to me when the Vatican did or did not take up its view of it, I don't believe its wrong just because they say so. I believe it is wrong in and of its self.


  • #223
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dades wrote: »
    Am I seeing a variation on the God moves in mysterious ways argument here? Yes, it makes no sense that the universe seemed to create itself out of nothing 13 billion years ago, but that it's creator only dropped by during the human bronze age to let people know of the Grand Plan?

    If the creator did drop by before the human bronze age to let people know of the grand plan, how would we know? Historical records of the time, and the time before it are not exactly complete.


  • #224
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Let's not go down the abortion rabbit-hole! :pac:

    It's somewhat of a red-herring in the current line of debate as the anti/pro-choice people do not always fall on the expected side of the religious/non-religious divide.


  • #225
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    deise go deo wrote: »
    If the creator did drop by before the human bronze age to let people know of the grand plan, how would we know? Historical records of the time, and the time before it are not exactly complete.
    He may well have (though not really) which begs the question why his approaches to humanity have been somewhat localised and haphazard. 2000 years after Jesus there's still people on the planet who have never even heard of him.

    It's as if the whole thing was started by men - and not the omnipotent creator of life, matter and time itself!


  • #226
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I am not suggesting you need Magic, I don't believe in a god that does magic tricks. I believe in a god that created the natural world, its laws and patterens. That things are explained based on evidence does not mean that god therefore had no hand in setting them in motion.

    I believe in God the creator, not a god of the gaps.

    Are you saying that god used science to create life and consciousness and all that, that he had a little chemistry set or something?
    From a scientific point of view, god is the same as magic, you can use them interchangeably because they are both as useless as each other for explaining anything.


  • #227
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Dades wrote: »
    and not the omnipotent creator of life, matter and time itself!
    It does seem odd that he would choose individuals, knowing that they would come up against persecution and hardship, to spread a message about an intangible higher power with the aim of disseminating knowledge and belief in him throughout the entire planet.

    He's omnipotent. What wrong with a big face in the sky talking to the whole planet at once? Or maybe rearranging the stars to spell out "God woz 'ere"?

    But instead he chose to speak in coded messages to individual people in full knowledge that the messages would be misinterpreted and miscommunicated for aeons, leading to division and bloodshed.


  • #228
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    seamus wrote: »
    But instead he chose to speak in coded messages to individual people in full knowledge that the messages would be misinterpreted and miscommunicated for aeons, leading to division and bloodshed.

    He made it all appear exactly as if humans had just invented him alongside the thousands of other gods that they invented.

    I think it's funny that christians reject all these other gods and attribute them correctly as being mad-made... but fail to apply the same logic to their own.

    Deise, you say that you believe god created all natural laws etc... how can you possibly know this?! I'm sorry, but it appears to be another case of 'god of the gaps' with you. Just admit that you don't understand the origins of the universe just like the rest of us!


  • #229
    m-a-i-
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭m-a-i-


    Pardon my not reading this entire thread but I've always been confused about the concept of agnostic.
    I used to be catholic but I wouldn't consider myself that anymore. However I would consider myself as agnostic because I would believe in the likes of something after we die and the like. I'm not an atheist because I do not believe that God does not exist.
    So where do I actually stand now?


  • #230
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    m-a-i- wrote: »
    Pardon my not reading this entire thread but I've always been confused about the concept of agnostic.
    I used to be catholic but I wouldn't consider myself that anymore. However I would consider myself as agnostic because I would believe in the likes of something after we die and the like. I'm not an atheist because I do not believe that God does not exist.
    So where do I actually stand now?
    Deist?


  • #231
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    deise go deo wrote: »
    If the creator did drop by before the human bronze age to let people know of the grand plan, how would we know?

    Evidence. You know, the thing that would support your assertions. The thing that you don't have to back up your claims.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    But so far I have not come across anything about the Church's teachings that would contradict my own beliefs.

    So do you believe that the resurrection is true and if so on what basis? It seems that the divinity of Jesus is a major foundation of the Catholic church, hence the adoption of the Nicene creed.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    I believe in a god that created the natural world, its laws and patterens.

    Such a proposition is untestable and therefore useless as an explanation. There is no way to determine its truth unless you could demonstrate what a non God created universe or non God influenced evolutionary process would look like. Since you can't determine the difference between a God created universe and a non God created universe, why assert that it is God created in the first place?


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  • #232
    m-a-i-
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭m-a-i-


    yawha wrote: »
    Deist?

    That makes so much sense!!!! Thankies :)


  • #233
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    m-a-i- wrote:
    Pardon my not reading this entire thread but I've always been confused about the concept of agnostic.
    I used to be catholic but I wouldn't consider myself that anymore. However I would consider myself as agnostic because I would believe in the likes of something after we die and the like. I'm not an atheist because I do not believe that God does not exist.
    So where do I actually stand now?
    Irish Catholic?

    Only kidding - what yawha said. :)


  • #234
    m-a-i-
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭m-a-i-


    Dades wrote: »
    Irish Catholic?

    Only kidding - what yawha said. :)



    Ha ha thats what I thought but then I began to think that I really don't believe in going to church ( if god is supposedly everywhere whats the point I guess ) on so on and so forth

    The deism thing makes sense to me :)


  • #235
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    m-a-i- wrote: »
    Ha ha thats what I thought but then I began to think that I really don't believe in going to church ( if god is supposedly everywhere whats the point I guess ) on so on and so forth

    The deism thing makes sense to me :)

    Oh really? It doesn't to me.


  • #236
    m-a-i-
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭m-a-i-


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Oh really? It doesn't to me.

    Well I guess to each their own but it makes sense to me because I would pray most of the time but never believed in going to church or having someone tell me what to believe in.

    I didn't think that I was agnostic but it seemed the closest to me about what I was thinking about the whole religious aspect and belief system.

    I always wanted and want to believe that there is a bigger picture then us just being here and then dying I guess


  • #237
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    m-a-i- wrote: »
    Well I guess to each their own but it makes sense to me because I would pray most of the time but never believed in going to church or having someone tell me what to believe in.

    I didn't think that I was agnostic but it seemed the closest to me about what I was thinking about the whole religious aspect and belief system.

    I always wanted and want to believe that there is a bigger picture then us just being here and then dying I guess

    That's an appeal to consequences.


  • #238
    m-a-i-
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭m-a-i-


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    That's an appeal to consequences.

    to be honest your quite possibly right but to me its something that fits a missing piece in me


  • #239
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    m-a-i- wrote: »
    to be honest your quite possibly right but to me its something that fits a missing piece in me

    No offense but you've just admitted you're lying to yourself.


  • #240
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Do we really need to hound m-a-i- about his new found deism?

    It's Friday night. Peace and love, people.


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  • #241
    m-a-i-
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭m-a-i-


    Right sorry allow me to clarify..right now I'm a bit ill so on painkillers :S

    What I'm basically trying to say is as I previously said, I was catholic, but as I got older I realised that I was against most of the things that the catholic church stood for ( As I guess many are) so I struggled to find what I was and where I stood with my beliefs.

    I believed in a God and heaven and that there was a bigger picture to this whole life thing...which I thought was agnostism..but wasn't fully convinced...so I was never content referring to myself as being agnostic.

    When I posted on this thread initially and was given the deism thing I had a good look at it and it made sense that this was what I was trying for, this was what I believed, that there was a name to it.

    It may or may not be an appeal to a consequence but I do not feel that I'm lying to myself. I do feel that this has helped me understand my religious and spiritual beliefs more.

    I hope this makes sense and I hope that I'm not coming across as a bit mad. I'm not, just want to make sure I'm making myself clear :)

    and I'm a she :P


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