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Do house prices need to increase?

13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Bat Fasterd


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    It doesnt even matter to many of those. If your moving to a similarly priced housed you still end up owing the bank the same.

    I don't understand your point. When the mortgage was taken out the amount owed to the bank was always going to be the same?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    The only way house prices will rise in the next 5-10yr is inflation. There is a real chance inflation may spiral out of control, mainly due to oil prices, it wont happen soon, but inflation of 6-8% is a real possibility.

    Inflation wont benefit people in NE hopping their house will regain value, as the interest rate they'll be paying will cripple them long before the house reaches 2006 levels.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,710 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    I don't understand your point. When the mortgage was taken out the amount owed to the bank was always going to be the same?

    You said negative equity "only exists if you have to sell your house and you are getting less that you paid for it". I mean that it doesnt even really matter for many of those people.

    I mean that negative equity doesnt matter to those who are moving house so long as the area's they are moving to and from have similar house price falls.

    If you bought a house for 300,000 thats now valued at 150,000. You sell it and move area purchasing a house that is valued at 150,000 but was valued at 300,000.

    Negative equity, for those still in employment, really only matters if your emmigrating and even then only to a country where house prices are more inflated then ours.

    Big exception is if the bank wont allow you to sell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    I should have inserted a very important caveat in my last post: if the people in charge of financial regulation do their job, and if the people at the top in banks do their job (admittedly history isn't on our side here, but they may have their hands tied by rules by then), there's no way house prices will hit 2007 levels in fifteen years.

    2007 prices were the result of a solid decade of house price appreciation, two-thirds of it entirely bubble-fuelled. For it to happen again, we need the current crash to stop completely (thoroughly unlikely), unemployment to go from 13-14% to about 4% (again, the outlook isn't good), a government to deliberately follow a procyclical economic policy (never say never, but Irish politicians have hopefully had their fingers permanently burnt by this), banks to start shovelling out money again (vastly unlikely - they'll spend the next decade trying to claw back the gaping holes in their balance sheets), the entire overhang of two hundred thousand houses to be filled (simply not going to happen) and more or less everyone in the country to forget the last four years (quite a few could, but not enough).

    What happened in Ireland isn't the same as what happened in Britain in the 1980s. We inflated the size of the construction sector to over twice what it should have been, raised the average price of a house to eight times the average salary, spent seven years furiously pumping the whole thing as far as it would go...and now we've spent more than a year's tax take on buying up worthless property, another year's on propping up the banks who effectively owned it, and yet another year's on trying and failing to keep Anglo alive. We've had to call in the IMF; the interest payments on our debts alone will eat up to a fifth of our budget every year; unemployment is running close to one in six; thousands of people are leaving the country.

    This is not going to happen in two decades. Japan's bubble collapsed in 1991; it wasn't until 2007 that prices began to rise again. Not reach their peak prices; rise. That's sixteen solid years of sliding, and I'm not sure why we can expect to do much better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    One thing to add: for Irish salaries to reach a median figure of a hundred thousand a year (the salary required to make sense of a return to 2006 prices) in 20 years would require an annual inflation rate of 5.5% for two decades straight. In 2006 (at the peak of boomtime madness) it was 4%. By September of last year it had recovered somewhat from the minus three of 2008-2009, all the way up to minus one.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,244 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Dionysus wrote: »
    No matter what anybody says, the Irish property market is hugely overpriced at the moment; before the bubble a house cost only 2.5 times the first earner's income, and one time the second earner's income. Furthermore, the average mortgage was only for 20 years, not 35 years.
    I generally agree, though I wonder just when you think the bubble started, if the income/mortgage ratio was 2.5x before it. I remember reading it was something like 5x in 1999: I could possibly have afforded a place of my own in 1998, the year before I moved to Ireland. Prices still have quite some way to go, downwards, before they come back in to line with incomes and the mortgages that banks are willing to offer.

    Government resting upon the will and universal suffrage of the people has no anchorage except in the people's intelligence.

    — Grover Cleveland



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    So why don't those who are renting continue to do so?
    They may well. Or, as prices crash, they may eventually reach their real value, at which point they may choose to buy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Alot of the problem lies with the banks offering 100% and 110% mortgages without proper stress testing. It's inherently breed into Irish people to own your own propery because rent is dead money. Personally i disagree. However the banks should be sharing in the deflation of propery prices. But of course they won't.
    Wrong. The owners of the banks have been totally wiped out. The employees of the banks have mostly got away with it though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Alot of the problem lies with the banks offering 100% and 110% mortgages without proper stress testing. It's inherently breed into Irish people to own your own propery because rent is dead money. Personally i disagree. However the banks should be sharing in the deflation of propery prices. But of course they won't.

    If you have to sell then you have to sell and maximise the sale price.
    Have you opened a newspaper even once over the last three years? Do you not realise that we own the banks now as taxpayers? That we have put in €200 billion directly and indirectly into them over the last two years to keep them afloat? That the shareholders during the boom have lost 99% of their money? That the junior bondholders have lost up to 80% of their money? It would be nice if we could get the senior bondholders to take a hit too but the ECB are paying the nurses and gardai salaries these days so unfortunately we have to abide by their conditions.

    It's been said here before but it seems it needs to be said again. You are calling for the banks to take a share in the deflation in property prices but in that case why shouldn't they also take a share in the inflation in property prices. If they lent you €300k to buy a house in 2006 and it's only worth €180k now and you want them to share part of the €120k loss then surely you'll think it's fair for them to also take a chunk from your parents who bought a house in 1980 for €40k and which is now worth €180k. Surely you wouldn't mind your parents having to share their €140k gain to help you out with your €120k loss would you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 295 ✭✭john t


    Some houses are overpriced and some underpriced, area of house and size, additional xtras apply too keep some prices up...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    The one phrase being bandied about by the media that they really need pulled up on is mentioning negative equity willy nilly. It only exists if you have to sell your house and you are getting less that you paid for it. It is that simple..
    What if you are a silly bint who paid €525,000 for a 2 bed apartment in the docklands that is now only worth €200,000 at the very best, and you want to get married and have some children?

    Is it a problem then? Oh, and you have a rather insecure job as a bad journalist...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    How are your taxes subsidising those who have taken out a mortgage? Your taxes are subsidising those who cannot afford to buy and rely on the state to provide social and affordable housing.
    As above our taxes (to the tune of €200 billion or five years of tax revenues) have gone to fund the banks directly or indirectly. This is subsidising those who have taken out a mortgage and are having trouble repaying by funding the shortfall that the non-payment or underpayment of mortgages has created. Only half of those in rented accommodation receive rent allowance or related subsidies. The other half pay their rent from their own pocket and they are also paying, through their taxes, to subsidies unlucky and reckless mortgage holders.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    What if you are a silly bint who paid €525,000 for a 2 bed apartment in the docklands that is now only worth €200,000 at the very best, and you want to get married and have some children?

    Is it a problem then? Oh, and you have a rather insecure job as a bad journalist...

    classic AH! :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Decrease
    House prices need to increase in order to get the market moving again, which will in turn help stabilise the economy. That said houses are still way overpriced and will fall further, particularly in rural and semi suburban areas.

    So in short, prices need to rise, but they have further to fall before they hit the bottom.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    I (never say never, but Irish politicians have hopefully had their fingers permanently burnt by this)

    Not a bit of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭COYW


    Dionysus wrote: »
    I object to my taxes going to promote those short-sighted individuals (to be polite) who foolishly followed the crowd and bought property in the boom times.

    I'm with you 100%. I work with people who fall into this category and they feel like they were conned by the banks and government into buying. I am a renter myself and will continue to do so until I find a property that I like but also consider to be good value for money. At the moment, prices still have some way to go to reach that level.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    Houses need to drop 60%+ from their peak. The top 2 things seen as 'safe as houses' was 1. houses 2. money in the post office. The next question is what percentage of deposits in the post office will people lose if Ireland does a sovereign default along with its expected bank default in 2013. Cos their aint no bank guarantee for the 'safe as houses' post office.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    House prices need to increase in order to get the market moving again, which will in turn help stabilise the economy. That said houses are still way overpriced and will fall further, particularly in rural and semi suburban areas.

    So in short, prices need to rise, but they have further to fall before they hit the bottom.
    House prices don't need to rise in order to get the market moving again. They just need to reach a bottom and stabilise. Then people can buy without worrying about whether they would save x% by holding out for another six months. The best way to achieve this would be for the government to stop trying to prop up prices.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    The Muppet wrote: »
    And the alternative was ?

    rent


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    In this morning's Irish Times, Average house prices could still be overvalued by up to 30%. It's well worth reading, although personally I think the decline will be considerably more than 30% for the reasons I stated in this thread earlier.


    MARTIN WALSH

    ANALYSIS: Price to income ratios suggest there is a way to go yet before property prices stabilise

    WHEN BUBBLES burst it takes time for society to recover its financial nerve. Before this can start, there must be some degree of certainty that all losses have been accounted for.

    There are persuasive arguments for believing that this point has not yet been reached in Ireland. A key priority for the State must be to get house prices back in line with their long-term value, and consequently with incomes, and keep them there in order to underpin competitiveness.

    There are other issues to be dealt with such as the parallels in the commercial and retail property sectors.

    As last week’s report by Finnish banker Peter Nyberg showed, Ireland got carried away with the availability of easy money. The result was we blew much of the gains made earlier in the Celtic Tiger period. Irish house prices increased between 1996 to 2007 by around 330 per cent – a bubble extreme in scale and duration but a classic nonetheless, matching the criteria in the extensive literature on bubbles.

    Yet we continue to hear cries of: “nobody saw it coming”. Plenty of people saw it coming – it was obvious to those who took the trouble to read what was being written here and abroad about house prices. There were reports and comments from international observers including the European Central Bank (ECB), Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the Financial Times and the Economist, and in particular, the International Monetary Fund (IMF)

    The third Bacon report in June 2000, when discussing changes in the model used for indentifying drivers of house prices, noted: “. . . the very dramatic change in the effect that the previous period’s price is having on the current period price level”. This is the essence of a bubble – a cycle of buying driven by expectations of further price increases unrelated to any increase in fundamental value.

    The fear of a property crash permeated the Bacon reports and the limited policy recommendations emerging from the reports reflected this. In any event, the actions taken as a result of the three Bacon reports were reversed under concerted pressure from vested interests. In retrospect, how lucky we would have been if we had experienced a property crash in 1998, when the first Bacon report was issued, rather than 10 years later.

    The reality is that most did not want to recognise the bubble – as implied by Nyberg. These ranged from those who were wilfully blind to regulators who saw it and were constrained from acting decisively for reasons that ranged from perceptions of the limited scope of their authority, political pressure and organisational culture.

    They also included conflicted media that benefited from spending on advertising and citizens who felt they were wealthier because the price of their home had increased. The price had increased but the intrinsic value remained the same – it was still the same house no matter how you measured the price.

    Many fallacious arguments were put forward during the boom to justify high house prices such as suggestions that increased demographic demand underpinned prices. This did not make any sense. Look at the slums of major Third-World cities where real demographic demand is of an order unimaginable here. There are no bubbles.

    On the other hand some countries and cities, with political restrictions on development, maintain high prices whereas others, such as Hong Kong and Singapore with a small land area, manage to house large populations. Similar illogicality was behind most of the thinking and talking.

    Global low interest rates and access to large quantities of easy money were the proximate cause of the bubble here and of the global financial crisis. The tsunami of cheap and easy money hit Ireland just as the tiger economy was moving into high gear. We were preparing to adopt the euro and with it access to a large pool of low-cost European finance, while at the same time new funding techniques such as securitisation provided the technical means to access these funds.

    Together these developments removed the funding constraints that a small peripheral currency had previously imposed. In addition, a short-term laissez faire, caveat emptor, philosophy took over the sale of financial products and services. If the bank boards and regulators did not know or understand what was happening, what was the non-expert expected to do?

    Cheap and easy money would not have been enough on its own to facilitate the inflation of the bubble. For example, neither Germany nor Canada suffered from bubbles. In Ireland, despite many timely and well-founded warnings, an array of defects in our beliefs and governance left us vulnerable.

    In the end the inevitable happened and the bubble burst. Essentially our domestic financial institutions are wiped out and European institutions and the IMF direct our financial affairs.

    But this is not the end of the affair. We have arrived here slowly, bit by bit, as the extent of the losses has become clearer. The question remains have we reached the end? The recent stress tests have helped but, hard as it might be to accept further bad news, it is better to get it all out in the open now.

    We need functioning lenders that are properly capitalised and in a position to lend to businesses and individuals. If, after recapitalisation, there remains doubt about any unrecognised losses, banks will be constrained from lending due to lack of resources. In addition, we await the revised memorandum of understanding following the recent EU-IMF examination of the Government’s adherence to last autumn’s bailout deal.

    Aside from the need to get the bad news out and sort out the banks, it seems that there is a real dilemma at the heart of national policy. Do we prioritise competitiveness by bringing house prices back into line with incomes or keep them inflated in the hope of reducing further losses to the banks and Nama (National Asset Management Agency), as well as containing the extent of negative equity?

    While higher incomes are a driver of house prices, prices themselves are a driver of demand for higher incomes. If house prices remain high relative to incomes this limits our ability to regain lost competitiveness. This pressure is not going to decrease as the vast populations of China, India and other large emerging countries play an increasing role in the global economy.

    In addition, well-managed economies such as Germany have, over the last two decades, brought down their unit labour costs, and compete with us in selling on global markets. This implies that average house prices must return to levels that are in line with long-term ratios to incomes, and possibly even lower as costs realign to meet increased competition.

    As is shown in the incomes, construction costs and house prices chart, despite the bubble in house prices, construction costs did not increase any faster than incomes over the last 30 years. This implies that all the overvaluation has been in site prices, as well as builders’ profits in the case of new houses.

    It also implies that there is a greater speculative element in site prices and unfinished estates. When house prices fall back to their true value, there may be a higher proportional reduction in the value of some of the collateral supporting loans held by Nama and the banks.

    This possibility may not, as yet, be fully reflected in considerations of the level of new capital required by the banks or the likely final recoveries that will be achieved by Nama.

    Hopefully the recently completed stress tests and increased capital adequacy requirements will adequately deal with a realignment of both residential and development property values. In fact it seems the State may be hoping for some stabilisation of prices at close to current levels, and that time will take care of the problem.

    A significant factor behind the Irish bubble was the implicit belief that low short-term interest rates would continue indefinitely. This belief influenced buyers’ understanding of affordability and value and was one of the fallacious arguments used as a selling point for houses and mortgages.

    Despite the fact that we in Ireland (as in the UK) have a tradition of variable rate mortgages, it is long-term interest rates that matter over time for determining the true value of assets. While market traders in stocks and bonds in liquid markets can react to short-term rate movements, home buyers and banks that provided long-term mortgages cannot do so.

    From 1953 to 1996, (ie before the bubble), the average ratio of the price of new houses in Dublin to average industrial earnings was 5.3. That is also where it was in 1996. In 2006, it reached 13.7 and by 2010 it had fallen back to 7.4.

    Based on a return to the pre-bubble level of the ratio, average house prices in 2010 should have been approximately €180,000 instead of approximately €250,000. Here we are talking about average house prices and average incomes. Of course there are exceptional houses and special buyers but for the country and economy overall it is the averages that matter.

    Why does the price to income ratio revert to a stable average in all economies over long periods and roughly what value might we expect the ratio to have?

    Excluding capital gains or losses, the economic value of a property is the capitalised value of the rent, less expenses (day to day and repairs and renewals), that could be earned if the property were let. This is the same as saying the rent must at least recover the cost of interest paid. The economic value is: value = net rent ÷ real interest rate.

    If expenses are 10 per cent of the annual rent and the real interest rate is 5 per cent, then the value is 18 times the rent. If rents are limited to a proportion of average incomes, say one-third, the value would be about six times the average income. If interest rates are 6 per cent the ratio would be 5. For simplicity, excluding expenses: value = income ÷ 3 ÷ real interest rate.

    Over long periods, long-term real (inflation adjusted) interest rates are quite stable. Although interest rates fluctuate and have been low in recent years, real rates revert to a narrow range.

    UK long-term real risk-free real interest rates, (ie the rate adjusted for inflation with the State as borrower), have averaged about 3 per cent over the last three centuries and the same applies in other major economies. If we add 2 per cent for wholesale and retail banking margins, we arrive at a real cost of funds of 5 per cent. Incidentally this is the minimum rate permitted under German mortgage bond law for the valuation of properties.

    It is instructive to see what the value of an average Irish house would be if the German capitalisation of net income method is used. Taking the property website Daft’s 2010 average monthly rent of €830, less expenses of 10 per cent (voids, running costs and repairs), and a rate of 5 per cent, this would also give an average value of about €180,000.

    Though the statistical methods take some account of changing conditions and mix of property types etc, these are approximations based on averages and are not precise measurements.

    However they show a consistent pattern and point to a persisting overvaluation of houses of the order of 25 per cent to 30 per cent.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    just to wade in on the whole RENT side of things. Rather than it being dead money, its an insecure situation. Those with families, or wanting to start families, want to have a place to call HOME. In the private rented sector, especially during boom time, people were investing in a property, only to sell it a year or two later etc. in the meantime they rent it out, and subsequently evict the tenants when its time to cash in. I know of a few people with families who rented, and it were forced to move around quite a bit. Kids would make friends etc, then have to move and try meet new friends etc. I wish people could realise that the reality of the situation was a complete systemic failure. In order to make renting viable, much bigger regulation of the private rental sector is required to protect the private tenant.

    On the issue of house prices. I am in serious negative equity, but I hope prices NEVER return to such ridiculous levels, and that a responsible road in ventured down. In order to maintain this though, personal bankruptcy laws need to come in, or the government need to either a) get the banks to write down mortgages, or b) As part of the bailout, give the money through the part purchase of houses in negative equity. I.E. If someone is in negative equity of €200,000 in a house bought for €400,000. The government pays its bailout money through giving €200,000 to the bank off this mortgage, and in turn gains a percentage of ownership of the house, and gets a percentage of any future sale.

    Moral hazard is out the window. Its all about solutions now and making sure this NEVER occurs again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    JimiTime wrote: »
    just to wade in on the whole RENT side of things. Rather than it being dead money, its an insecure situation. Those with families, or wanting to start families, want to have a place to call HOME. In the private rented sector, especially during boom time, people were investing in a property, only to sell it a year or two later etc. in the meantime they rent it out, and subsequently evict the tenants when its time to cash in. I know of a few people with families who rented, and it were forced to move around quite a bit. Kids would make friends etc, then have to move and try meet new friends etc. I wish people could realise that the reality of the situation was a complete systemic failure. In order to make renting viable, much bigger regulation of the private rental sector is required to protect the private tenant.

    On the issue of house prices. I am in serious negative equity, but I hope prices NEVER return to such ridiculous levels, and that a responsible road in ventured down. In order to maintain this though, personal bankruptcy laws need to come in, or the government need to either a) get the banks to write down mortgages, or b) As part of the bailout, give the money through the part purchase of houses in negative equity. I.E. If someone is in negative equity of €200,000 in a house bought for €400,000. The government pays its bailout money through giving €200,000 to the bank off this mortgage, and in turn gains a percentage of ownership of the house, and gets a percentage of any future sale.

    Moral hazard is out the window. Its all about solutions now and making sure this NEVER occurs again.

    Hmm?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Hmm?

    ??:confused: Not sure what your post is saying?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    JimiTime wrote: »
    ??:confused: Not sure what your post is saying?

    I may have misread what you said, I'll give it a shot and please correct me if I'm wrong.
    By saying moral hazzard is out the window, are you saying that an option is that somehow people can avoid paying back mortgages in full?
    If so I don't see how this will prevent a bubble from happening again. People are greedy and stupid, I guarantee it would happen again. There are people out there that think the bubble was normal and rising house prices will bring everything back tot hat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    FFs plan to save the banks, the builders and their mates needed your support people. They needed you to vote FG to see their plan through. It's not FFs fault any more. You are doing this to yourselves people!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    fontanalis wrote: »
    I may have misread what you said, I'll give it a shot and please correct me if I'm wrong.
    By saying moral hazzard is out the window, are you saying that an option is that somehow people can avoid paying back mortgages in full?

    Afraid so. Either by personal bankruptcy legislation, or by writing down morgages to a realistic level.
    If so I don't see how this will prevent a bubble from happening again.

    Of course, you don't simply forgive debt and say, 'there ye go'. It must be parallel to heavy regulation, IMO, making it illegal for banks to give potential home owners any more than 3 times the income of ONE member of a household. Also, the government can take a percentage of any future sale of the house etc.
    People are greedy and stupid, I guarantee it would happen again.

    Some people are, and if the system is left unregulated again, there is no doubt it would happen again. Regulation is the key.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    JimiTime wrote: »
    . Regulation is the key.

    Regulation in a corrupt oligarchy is useless. We've just seen how independent regulators and auditors were behaving in this country. Straight politicians and public service workers is what's needed.

    Most importantly the people of this country must decide whether they want to be run by some kind of mafia organisation or not. Stop complaining, start using your head on ballot day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Of course, you don't simply forgive debt and say, 'there ye go'. It must be parallel to heavy regulation, IMO, making it illegal for banks to give potential home owners any more than 3 times the income of ONE member of a household. Also, the government can take a percentage of any future sale of the house etc.
    What happens to people who borrowed to buy shares in the Irish banks? They were even more ripped off than housebuyers were. Should their debts be forgiven?

    How about people who invested their deposit money to buy a home in AIB/Anglo/BOI rather than just let it sit earning no interest in a bank? Their money is gone and they still can't get a home!

    Forgiveness for them too? And how would it work?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    Is there any reason why somebody crippled by negative equity would not want house prices to increase again?

    An interest in the common good?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Snakeblood wrote: »
    An interest in the common good?
    Which assumes that rising prices are a good thing. They aren't. Unless you go out dancing on the streets when petrol prices go up, or when the cost of food goes up? :)


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