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Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

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Comments

  • #272
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Nodin wrote: »
    Be as good as to explain the relevance of the bolded part above, because that (and its meaning) escape me at the moment.

    Because of the amount of Imans that are terrorist supporters and have been recruiting through mosques.They are a danger to everyone if we were to go down the route of what he was implying.


  • #273
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    At the risk of repeating myself (because no one seems to want to debate this) but they do if said school is taking taxpayers money and then demanding that taxpayers kids subscribe to a religion or not be admitted. Especially if it's a rural area and there are no other schools nearby.

    If the school is entirely self-sufficient, then yes, your point is correct.

    If you have the majority in the school are catholic,they should not be pushed aside for a minority of religions.
    They are not forced to partake in the class and can if they want to.
    Muslim etc.. bring their children to be educated for their religion in a Muslim classes if they are that devout.
    And all the families i have worked with of other religions have no issue what so ever with catholicism in the school.They do not feel discriminated against.


  • #274
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    caseyann wrote: »
    If you have the majority in the school are catholic,they should not be pushed aside for a minority of religions.
    .

    We live in a Republic. One of the features that is meant to distinguish a Republic is protection of minorities against the "tyranny of the majority". The Irish state has singularily failed in this regard since its foundation, but its never too late to start.

    You might care to explain how "no religion" equates to catholics being "pushed aside for a minority of religions".
    caseyann wrote: »
    They are not forced to partake in the class and can if they want to.
    Muslim etc.. bring their children to be educated for their religion in a Muslim classes if they are that devout.
    And all the families i have worked with of other religions have no issue what so ever with catholicism in the school.They do not feel discriminated against.

    Yet there are secular catholics, protestants and non-believers who very much do feel discriminated against, your anecdotes aside.


  • #275
    transylman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭transylman


    raymon wrote: »
    Even today another headline about a priest abusing kids.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0405/breaking27.html

    Why would anyone want these people to run our schools

    According to a poll carried out last year a majority don't want them running schools.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055809080


  • #276
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    caseyann wrote: »
    If you have the majority in the school are catholic,they should not be pushed aside for a minority of religions.
    They are not forced to partake in the class and can if they want to.
    Muslim etc.. bring their children to be educated for their religion in a Muslim classes if they are that devout.
    And all the families i have worked with of other religions have no issue what so ever with catholicism in the school.They do not feel discriminated against.

    Doesn't answer the question I asked: why should they take taxpayers money and then be allowed to discriminate? More than one poster has spoken of being asked to provide a baptism cert upon application, as well as stories of catholic children being accepted ahead of non catholic children. Why is this fair when their parents have paid money to run the school?

    No one is pushing religion aside. Again, we're not talking athiesm here.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #277
    pocketvenus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭pocketvenus


    The main issue which I think that should be addressed with regards to religions in school is tolerence and understanding of other people religion, faith, beliefs or lack there of.

    From reading some of the posts here the amount of religious intolerence in what is supposed to be an educated and civilalised scoiety is pretty sad. People also seem to have a problem of seperating the institution and the religion itself.

    Yes I agree that new schools need to be establised for our multi-cultural and diverse scoiety and that the State well it should help cater for all these schools. Be it an educate together, Catholic, Jewish, Mulsim etc.
    But people saying that as a taxpayer I do not want taxes going to a religious school is wrong. People who have a religion could say the same back.

    I think that by educating children that there are many different views on religion, many different forms of it and that no everyone is the same, it woud help stop discrimination etc.
    However by removing any metion of it all together just breeds ignorance and intolerence.

    If religous people can respect that some individuals do not belive then those non-believers should respect those that do believe.


  • #278
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Nodin wrote: »
    We live in a Republic. One of the features that is meant to distinguish a Republic is protection of minorities against the "tyranny of the majority". The Irish state has singularily failed in this regard since its foundation, but its never too late to start.

    You might care to explain how "no religion" equates to catholics being "pushed aside for a minority of religions".



    Yet there are secular catholics, protestants and non-believers who very much do feel discriminated against, your anecdotes aside.

    Because the majority are wanting their kids to make communion and confirmation and are catholic and have that graduation and learn their religion through school.Those people pay their taxes.
    Why would they feel discriminated against?I
    f you go back to the they arent accepted in schools because of their religion.I still dont buy it.They may be not accepted to the school because they are on the list and last on the list.


  • #279
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    caseyann: The problem is that there are too many RCC schools that's why they need to be rebalanced. I don't agree with getting rid of them all however unlike some on this thread.


  • #280
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Doesn't answer the question I asked: why should they take taxpayers money and then be allowed to discriminate? More than one poster has spoken of being asked to provide a baptism cert upon application, as well as stories of catholic children being accepted ahead of non catholic children. Why is this fair when their parents have paid money to run the school?

    No one is pushing religion aside. Again, we're not talking athiesm here.

    Again thats just a clause and not a needed clause.They ask for one you havent got one then what ever.Does not go against them getting into a school.
    They only reason people get accepted ahead of others is because they have been on the list for the right amount of years due to the amount and room etc... They come in to late and then their names remain on the list if the parents get them into another school and a place comes up later on they are offered it.
    It is a very big minority that they wouldn't be accepted because not catholic.


  • #281
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Jakkass wrote: »
    caseyann: The problem is that there are too many RCC schools that's why they need to be rebalanced. I don't agree with getting rid of them all however unlike some on this thread.

    They need a more balanced system i agree.
    Then the problem will arise people who want their kids to do all religion and communion in schools etc... unable to get the places and have to travel outside their area for it.And then the lists get longer.
    Thats why i said leave religion alone and set up a class separate for those who dont want to partake in it.


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  • #282
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    caseyann wrote: »
    Again thats just a clause and not a needed clause.They ask for one you havent got one then what ever.Does not go against them getting into a school.

    They only reason people get accepted ahead of others is because they have been on the list for the right amount of years due to the amount and room etc... They come in to late and then their names remain on the list if the parents get them into another school and a place comes up later on they are offered it.
    It is a very big minority that they wouldn't be accepted because not catholic.

    There are cases expressed in this thread and in others to the contrary. Fratton Fred certainly felt there was little choice for him. I've heard first hand examples outside of this thread, also.

    There are, of course, other examples: prayers at assembly for example. You pointed out taking time out of education for sacraments (which should most certainly NOT be taking place in a tax-funded school)

    If people want their kids to learn these sacrmanerts though school, then fine, but they need to find and fund such a school themselves.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #283
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    There are cases expressed in this thread and in others to the contrary. I've heard first hand examples outside of this thread, also.

    There are, of course, other examples: prayers at assembly for example. You pointed out taking time out of education for sacraments (which should most certainly NOT be taking place in a tax-funded school)

    If people want their kids to learn these sacrmanerts though school, then fine, but they need to find and fund such a school themselves.

    They already pay their taxes why the hell should they have to do anything else,they also make voluntary contributions to the schools.

    Rubbish,did someone say to them you didnt get in because you are not catholic or because the list is to long and you didnt get in because you applied after these kids or they are in the area and closer to the school.They do not know thats the reason they didnt get in.Unless they went to the class the child was in and checked every child was catholic.
    Plenty of Irish kids whose parents went to the school and their parents before them and are catholic and live further away then other kids irrespective of religion and got refused.


  • #284
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    caseyann wrote: »
    They already pay their taxes why the hell should they have to do anything else,they also make voluntary contributions to the schools.

    Rubbish,did someone say to them you didnt get in because you are catholic or because the list is to long.They do not know thats the reason they didnt get in.Unless they went to the class the child was in and checked every child was catholic.

    Previous post edited to cite example. The others were in a different thread, I'll never be able to find it.
    EDIT - better still, here's a news story:
    In a report issued today the UN's Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination says Ireland must accelerate efforts to establish these schools and to amend legislation that inhibits students from enrolling in schools because of their faith or belief.
    The committee has said it noted with concern that the education system here was still dominated by the Catholic Church and that Catholic children were favoured for entry into those schools against students of other faiths.
    Source

    Admittedly, the CHurch is equally keen to end the practrice, but my point is that it DOES happen.



    Back on topic:
    They pay their taxes, as do the parents of the other kids, but they want a greater say as to how the teachers' time is spent. What are you proposing that the teachers do with the kids who aren't making a sacrament?

    It's not the job of a teacher (who may not even be catholic themselves, remember) to train a child in a sacrament, not matter how much a parent may want it.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #285
    StudentDad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    For me there should be a total separation of church and state.

    This discussion reminds me of a converstation I had with someone a few years ago and I was discussing my religious stance and that of my wife in regards to us and our children. The question I got in response was a shocked, 'but what if the priest comes round?' At first I thought she was joking but to my horror this woman was deadly serious.

    The idea that a priest or anyone else for that matter would turn up on my doorstep with the notion in their heads that they somehow have the right to tell me or my wife how to live our lives is frankly insulting and they'd be very quickly told to mind their own business.

    The same applies to school, to my mind any religious education should be carried out outside of school hours. If at this point the parents of children want their children to partake of such education fair enough that is their choice.

    I want my children to be educated and to think for themselves and not be exposed to dogma and the attitude of 'but what if the priest comes round!'

    SD


  • #286
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    caseyann wrote: »
    They need a more balanced system i agree.
    Then the problem will arise people who want their kids to do all religion and communion in schools etc... unable to get the places and have to travel outside their area for it.And then the lists get longer.
    Thats why i said leave religion alone and set up a class separate for those who dont want to partake in it.

    When we were in school initiation rites were always done outside of class time. The Catholics in our class had outside communion and confirmation training, and for those of other denominations any rites that they had were done separate.

    The ethos pretty much just involved the teaching of Christianity and prayer in the morning.


  • #287
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Previous post edited to cite example. The others were in a different thread, I'll never be able to find it.

    They pay their taxes, as do the parents of the other kids, but they want a greater say as to how the teachers' time is spent. What are you proposing that the teachers do with the kids who aren't making a sacrament?

    It's not the job of a teacher (who may not even be catholic themselves, remember) to train a child in a sacrament, not matter how much a parent may want it.

    Give them math classes? Or painting or something.

    The major.
    Never ever heard of a Teacher teaching a child religion who wasnt of that religion themselves.And if they arent then the teacher who is takes over.

    http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm
    2006 stats for religion in Ireland.

    And it is only like 30 mins three times a week.


  • #288
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,712 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    caseyann wrote: »
    Loads of people believe in the Jewish zombie ;) And its a hell of alot more than dont.So you better take that into your consideration..
    caseyann wrote: »
    People are the problem not the religion if thats the case then no to mosques in Ireland.
    .

    :confused:
    caseyann wrote: »
    If a school wants to be catholic it has every right to be so,and if it wants to be secularized it can be every right to do so.If someone of a different religion send their child to a catholic school,thats their tuff.Forcing the majority to change for a minority is disgraceful.
    No one has the right to force any school to change.

    The problem is, quite often a person of a different religion or no religious beliefs has few other options, as pointed out earlier by Fratton Fred. The fact is that there are too many of these schools out there to provide any sort of balance.


  • #289
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Jakkass wrote: »
    When we were in school initiation rites were always done outside of class time. The Catholics in our class had outside communion and confirmation training, and for those of other denominations any rites that they had were done separate.

    The ethos pretty much just involved the teaching of Christianity and prayer in the morning.

    The problem is people are actually taking offence to this and i feel making up every excuse in the book to get rid of it altogether out of schools based on their minority vote.
    But if it was about northern Ireland,ah sure they lose because united Ireland because they are in the minority vote.But in this case even thought the majority in the classes are catholic and wish to have the religious graduation and lessons in their faith should be ignored.


  • #290
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    caseyann wrote: »
    Loads of people believe in the Jewish zombie ;) And its a hell of alot more than dont.So you better take that into your consideration.
    These people want their kids to make their communion and confirmation in school.There was only three in the class i worked with last year who didnt and there is only two tis year who arent.
    People are the problem not the religion if thats the case then no to mosques in Ireland.
    .

    what the hell have mosques got to do with it? have muslims suddenlt taken over 90% of schools while i was on lunch?

    If you want to teach your kids for the communion of confo, youll still be able to do that. its just those that dont will now have that option, as well as not having 30 minutes of doss time in religion class, may actually receive some half decent sex education and hopefully be spared being told that theyre all going to hell because of original sin and that condoms dont work against aids as I was taught


  • #291
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Last Census, I thought the majority of the people said they were Catholic?
    To get into some ridiculous amount of primary schools, you had to be christened a catholic. Thus a lot of people are catholics. But how many of them actually worship god as a catholic would be drastically lower, in my experience.
    ISAW wrote: »
    No it should not! People should be free to educate their children at home if they wish.
    To what end? Will they be able to teach the child up to Junior or even Leaving Cert standard at home?
    caseyann wrote: »
    Loads and loads of great priests,find another angle.:rolleyes:
    How about the angle that those in charge, rather than co-operate with the authorities to stop the pedo-priests, they moved them around. This allowed the pedos to effect many more children, and to keep doing it.
    sensibleken wrote: »
    purple monkey dishwasher!'
    Do not insults PMD, or it will not wash your clothes (now, which one of your gods can perform such a magical feat!)...
    caseyann wrote: »
    Forcing the majority to change for a minority is disgraceful.
    Which is why they're getting rid of the catholic boards in the schools.


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  • #292
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    caseyann wrote: »
    Give them math classes? Or painting or something.

    The major.
    Never ever heard of a Teacher teaching a child religion who wasnt of that religion themselves.And if they arent then the teacher who is takes over.

    http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm
    2006 stats for religion in Ireland.

    And it is only like 30 mins three times a week.

    Again, why make the division? Why not teach the class as a class and let the church handle the sacraments? You're also assuming that there is a catholic teacher on hand, which may not be the case with some smaller rural schools.

    Anyway, the point remains: why discriminate against the kids who are not catholic in favour of the ones that are? What are the benefits of this taking place in school?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #293
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    caseyann wrote: »
    Because of the amount of Imans that are terrorist supporters and have been recruiting through mosques.They are a danger to everyone if we were to go down the route of what he was implying.

    I was not implying anything. I was saying that an organisation who has systematically covered up child abuse on an industrial scale has no place in educating children.

    By the above are saying if you get rid of catholocism the muslims are going to come in and turn everyone into terrorists?


  • #294
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    caseyann wrote: »
    The problem is people are actually taking offence to this and i feel making up every excuse in the book to get rid of it altogether out of schools based on their minority vote.
    But if it was about northern Ireland,ah sure they lose because united Ireland because they are in the minority vote.But in this case even thought the majority in the classes are catholic and wish to have the religious graduation and lessons in their faith should be ignored.

    I don't support getting rid of it altogether. Admittedly it puts me right in the middle of the argument. I'm supportive of more secular schools, but I am also supportive of faith schools and the choice of parents.


  • #295
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    :confused:

    Explained in post after that :)



    The problem is, quite often a person of a different religion or no religious beliefs has few other options, as pointed out earlier by Fratton Fred. The fact is that there are too many of these schools out there to provide any sort of balance.

    Here explained to you.Example.Muslim child in a class with one non religious child and 28 catholic kids during religion classes.Teacher asks parents would you like your child to partake in religious classes or do a different subject.
    Parents reply we would like him to colour or study his books.Some classes if there are two of these classes of same year,they send said children to those classes while religion is being taught and is not in the other class.
    Only someone who works in school classrooms can know the reality of it.


  • #296
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Again, why make the division? Why not teach the class as a class and let the church handle the sacraments? You're also assuming that there is a catholic teacher on hand, which may not be the case with some smaller rural schools.

    Anyway, the point remains: why discriminate against the kids who are not catholic in favour of the ones that are? What are the benefits of this taking place in school?

    It is not discriminating,it has always been there and was there before anyone came from another religion in more to Ireland.
    If it was discrimination this practice would have only been made in he years since their arrival.
    If it wasnt for catholicism majority of these schools would never have existed.
    Also the less of faith the more of crime.


  • #297
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't support getting rid of it altogether. Admittedly it puts me right in the middle of the argument. I'm supportive of more secular schools, but I am also supportive of faith schools and the choice of parents.

    And there will be the majority in most areas will wish for catholic classes.
    There needs a better solution.Schools built.


  • #298
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    caseyann wrote: »
    It is not discriminating,it has always been there and was there before anyone came from another religion in more to Ireland.
    If it was discrimination this practice would have only been made in he years since their arrival.
    If it wasnt for catholicism majority of these schools would never have existed.
    Also the less of faith the more of crime.

    You're getting hysterical now.

    It has always been there and it has always been discriminatory.
    Better late than never
    Schools would still exist nonetheless, with or without the RCC
    Can you prove the last one?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #299
    Trevor O
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 260 ✭✭Trevor O


    caseyann wrote: »
    Here explained to you.Example.Muslim child in a class with one non religious child and 28 catholic kids during religion classes.Teacher asks parents would you like your child to partake in religious classes or do a different subject.
    Parents reply we would like him to colour or study his books.Some classes if there are two of these classes of same year,they send said children to those classes while religion is being taught and is not in the other class.
    Only someone who works in school classrooms can know the reality of it.

    And why should that child have attention and teaching time taken away from them just because of the religion time you want?

    Why not do it after school if it's that important to the Catholic parents?


  • #300
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    caseyann wrote: »
    It is not discriminating,it has always been there and was there before anyone came from another religion in more to Ireland.
    If it was discrimination this practice would have only been made in he years since their arrival.
    If it wasnt for catholicism majority of these schools would never have existed.
    Also the less of faith the more of crime.

    So what are you saying, there has only ever been Roman Catholics in Ireland up until quite recently?


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  • #301
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    You're getting hysterical now.

    It has always been there and it has always been discriminatory.
    Better late than never
    Schools would still exist nonetheless, with or without the RCC
    Can you prove the last one?

    I am not getting hysterical,i am trying to write a paper and reply at same time.;)

    was not always discriminatory as the majority is and always has been catholic religion.Non catholic have their own schools.Catholic schools accept all faiths in their doors regardless.Show me all these schools that are proven to discriminate against someone because of their religion?
    If i was a catholic applying to a Jewish school i wouldn't get in,i would even be allowed in their synagogue.
    Catholic church,are you catholic no i have no faith,you are welcome.:)


This discussion has been closed.
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