Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

NTMK · 04-04-2011 11:16AM

sensibleken wrote: »

Is saying FACT! at the end of a sentence a bit like 'Jinx no come backs!'

apparently i was really just taking the piss with mine

raymon · 04-04-2011 11:24AM

Predator_ wrote: »

Do you associate the British Army with invasions and killings?

Armies are killers and murderers , yes.
Paramilitaries are also killers and murderers.
What is your point ?

Dirk Gently · 04-04-2011 11:25AM

irishconvert wrote: »

Yup, but it doesn't matter what your opinion is about their decision. The majority of the people in this country say they are Catholic, therefore it is a Catholic country.

A lot of mothers say everyone in their house on census night is a catholic. Not the same thing. My own mother use to do it all the time when I lived at home, even though she was the only catholic in the house. Our census should have read 75% atheist, 25% catholic but instead it read as 100% Catholic. How many people tick Catholic without thinking just because they were baptised?

ISAW's 95% figure is way off. I could count on one hand the number of practising catholics I know under the age of 40. Even if it was correct there's still no place for religion in the class room. If you want religious instruction then go to mass / mosque / synagogue etc.

irishconvert · 04-04-2011 11:32AM

clown bag wrote: »

How many people tick Catholic without thinking just because they were baptised?
.

It doesn't matter, these are grown adults answering a question. If they say they are cathoic, who are you to override their answer because it does not suit you or your agenda?

mike65 · 04-04-2011 11:38AM

The census question is deeply flawed, there should be two parts to it. As it stands it says

What is your religion?

and lists faiths, other and no religion.

It should ask

Which faith are you baptised into?

followed by

Do you practice that faith?

irishconvert · 04-04-2011 11:45AM

mike65 wrote: »

The census question is deeply flawed, there should be two parts to it. As it stands it says

and lists faiths, other and no religion.

It should ask

followed by

That question is flawed also, you don't get baptised into Islam, Hindu, Buddism, etc ;-)

Also you can consider yourself to be a particular religion without practising it. I know many friends who do not go to mass, etc, but genuinely do still consider themselves to be Catholic.

EDIT: Your two questions don't take account people who have converted to another religion. I would be excluded by your version of the questions.

At the end of the day, an adult should be trusted to answer a simple question, what religion are you.

mike65 · 04-04-2011 11:46AM

Okay "inducted", that covers all bases.

At the end of the day, an adult should be trusted to answer a simple question, what religion are you.

Tis a messy question esp in a country where an unthinking bending the knee to the 'powers that be' is an issue. People will go "ah but I was baptised a Catholic and therefore I am still a Catholic despite having not darkened a church doorway since my niece got married or having a "faith thought" in decades" sort of thing.

irishconvert · 04-04-2011 11:48AM

mike65 wrote: »

Okay "inducted", that covers all bases.

What about people who have converted to another religion? They would not be counted using your two questions.

mike65 · 04-04-2011 11:53AM

irishconvert wrote: »

What about people who have converted to another religion? They would not be counted using your two questions.

Granted, a third question to take account of converts is required

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-04-2011 12:39PM

hatz7 wrote: »

Specifically Catholic schools do education well, that's what I mean, In lots of different countries many of the best schools are catholic run schools.

Now secularism is fine, however funnily enough that's not the issue, what is, is what can the 'Irish state' provide in terms of secular education?

I think my view may be influenced by 'better the devil you know', I not think that the Irish state can provide a better service than the CC.

This is a service we are discussing and the delivery of a service. Who trusts the Irish State????

Again, I need to know what, specifically, does the church do that the state doesn't?

The state is the one that sets the syallabus, sets the exams and trains the teachers, not the church. Therefore, if something is working at the moment, I would argue that it's the state and not the church that is behind it.

ISAW wrote: »

The Schools are mostly roman Catholic run and also Church of Ireland. Matter of fact my own children went to a school with no religion allowed and the oldest one is now going to a school which is not RC or CoI but does have a religious ethos. The schools and the peopel are almost entirely RC and CoI. That is a fact! If ther are people who want something different then the constitution supports then too. But it isn't for the one percent of atheists to demand 50 per cent of schools have no mention of God!

What is it with you and athiesm? I'm not an athiest and I would like to see 100% of Irish public schools to be state-run. I don't think it really matters what your religious (or lack thereof) background is, there is enough support for the seperation of chuch and schools to make Deputy Quinn want to tackle the issue.

If a school wishes to push a religious ethos, fine - but it should finance itself independently of taxpayers. You want a catholic school? Set it up and pay for it yourself. (As with any other faith, obviously.)

irishconvert wrote: »

Last Census, I thought the majority of the people said they were Catholic?

Nope. The majority of Irish people ticked a box inaccurately, I would say, judging by the discussion I'm reading here and having elsewhere.

Einhard · 04-04-2011 12:39PM

raymon wrote: »

The catholic church has no moral authority to lead in education or anywhere else.

In addition to removing the link between church and education, the prayer before Dail sessions should be banned in addition to the 12 noon and 6 pm angelus.

It is a ridiculous status quo.

I kinda like the angelus or whatever it is it's called these days.

Predator_ wrote: »

Thats the problem, you equate the Church with pedophilia and Irish Patriotism with bombings. Either your brainwashed by the enemy or your an agent of the enemy, hard to tell.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! I read the first sentence and decided to respond. Then, once I had clicked reply, I read the other sentence and just burst out laughing!! Brilliant! Who's this enemy you speak of? You're a funny guy.

irishconvert · 04-04-2011 12:52PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Nope. The majority of Irish people ticked a box inaccurately, I would say, judging by the discussion I'm reading here and having elsewhere.

Inaccurately, becuase their answer does not suit you? You make me laugh. These are grown adults, they know their own religion.

sensibleken · 04-04-2011 12:56PM

irishconvert wrote: »

Inaccurately, becuase their answer does not suit you? You make me laugh. These are grown adults, they know their own religion.

seriously, if you believe this you havent spoken to many irish people. An immense amount of people will describe themselves as catholic because it is their 'tribe', ask them do they believe in transubstantiation, papal infalability or if they want their kids to be told condoms dont work (as most of us where in catholic education) and theyll laugh in your face.

its a peculiarity of the irish

bmaxi · 04-04-2011 01:01PM

irishconvert wrote: »

Inaccurately, becuase their answer does not suit you? You make me laugh. These are grown adults, they know their own religion.

Automatically is probably a better word. I know with my local church, 20 years ago you couldn't drive down the street with cars parked either side, now you could sail Titanic down it. Unless they're all green Catholics now.

Dave! · 04-04-2011 01:11PM

irishconvert wrote: »

Yup, but it doesn't matter what your opinion is about their decision. The majority of the people in this country say they are Catholic, therefore it is a Catholic country.

It's certainly a predominantly (nominally at least) Catholic country, but what does that have to do with the education system? Can you give a reason why the education system and the majority religion should be in any way linked, as opposed to having a secular school system and people can pursue their religious agenda in their own time?

Why don't we introduce a socialist school system, where children are taught that socialism is the best political system available, given that the majority of the country are left-leaning (Fine Gael's recent election victory notwithstanding)?

The majority of the US population used to think that black people were inferior to whites, does that mean that it was alright to discriminate against them?

Also, wouldn't you agree that, as with voting, drinking alcohol, having sex, etc., children below a certain age can't really have any appreciation of what it means to be religious, or have given any real thought to what religion (if any) they would like to follow? Assuming you do, how is it fair to put children in a school of a faith that they never actually consented to opt into?

You're really advocating a school system to appease parents rather than to serve the best interests of the people who actually attend it (mainly under 18's).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-04-2011 01:13PM

irishconvert wrote: »

Inaccurately, becuase their answer does not suit you? You make me laugh. These are grown adults, they know their own religion.

Inaccurately, because they don't practice, don't believe and generally are appalled by the acts of the church in the past, or let their mammies fill the form in for them.

Look around you: are you saying that church numbers are as high as ever, or that 95% are happy with the church and support it full?

Seriously, the old census argument is flawed as has been shown in the last three or four posts, and purponents of it are clutching at straws. And even if 95% WAS accurate, this is not an acceptable reason to have the church running education, in the same way they shouldn't run the social welfare system, public transport or relationships with foreign countries.

h2005 · 04-04-2011 01:14PM

irishconvert wrote: »

Yup, but it doesn't matter what your opinion is about their decision. The majority of the people in this country say they are Catholic, therefore it is a Catholic country.

Its a secular country practice whatetever religion you like but don`t force your beliefs on me

SB-08 · 04-04-2011 01:19PM

I love how it's still claimed the majority of people are catholic in a country where the catholic church is on the brink of collapse with almost empty churches up and down the country every Sunday. Anyone who thinks the vast majority of kids care about anything other than money when they do their conformation or communion is deluding themselves.

Thank god we finally have a Education Minister who is going to bring the education system into the 21st Century, and one which reflects the true feelings of the majority.

04-04-2011 01:20PM

If the majority of parents in a school want it to be secular,why isn't it?
Has there been a vote at schools and results presented to the boards?

Surely schools in 2011 especially with the current policy of the RC church wanting rid and Ruari Quinn wanting to support this that most schools should be secular soon unless parents don't want to co operate or are indifferent to any change?

Laminations · 04-04-2011 01:22PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Inaccurately, because they don't practice, don't believe and generally are appalled by the acts of the church in the past, or let their mammies fill the form in for them.

Firstly, the church and the religion are separate. Secondly, what does practicing a religion look like? Does it need to be overt? Does it need to involve mass? The practice of Catholicism has become more lax and casual, you can't judge peoples religion more accurately than their self reported identity by observing the trends in mass goers.

Irishconvert is right that you can't discard peoples self reported affiliations but Dave! is right that religion (majority or otherwise) does not need to be linked with education.

04-04-2011 01:24PM

SB-08 wrote: »

I love how it's still claimed the majority of people are catholic in a country where the catholic church is on the brink of collapse with almost empty churches up and down the country every Sunday.

I'm sorry lad but I reckon from an albeit unscientific count,I reckon theres about 5 or 6 thousand regular church goers every sunday at one of my 4 local churches and thats in a town on the east coast.
I actually know of another rural one in the same parish where you wouldn't get a seat on a saturday evening!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-04-2011 01:58PM

Laminations wrote: »

Firstly, the church and the religion are separate. Secondly, what does practicing a religion look like? Does it need to be overt? Does it need to involve mass? The practice of Catholicism has become more lax and casual, you can't judge peoples religion more accurately than their self reported identity by observing the trends in mass goers.

Irishconvert is right that you can't discard peoples self reported affiliations but Dave! is right that religion (majority or otherwise) does not need to be linked with education.

Oh, I'm not trying to! But saying that "Ireland is a catholic country" is simply inaccurate.

To me, at least believing and practising on a regular basis constitutes a belonging to a religion. If not, then what? Purely birth? Making a confirmation as a child? Why is this, when people grow up and learn more about their faith and decide that, after all, they do not agree? Are they still catholics? If so, bearing in mind that the church has stopped recognising the "count me out" letters, what does someone have to do to reclassify themselves to a different faith (or athiesm, should that be their leaning)?

Finally, I am not discarding people's self-reported affiliations, people do that for themselves. One way or another, it'll be interesting to see what the figure comes out as in the next census.

sensibleken · 04-04-2011 01:58PM

Laminations wrote: »

Firstly, the church and the religion are separate. Secondly, what does practicing a religion look like? Does it need to be overt? Does it need to involve mass? The practice of Catholicism has become more lax and casual, you can't judge peoples religion more accurately than their self reported identity by observing the trends in mass goers.

Irishconvert is right that you can't discard peoples self reported affiliations but Dave! is right that religion (majority or otherwise) does not need to be linked with education.

I think you are confusing catholocism with christianity. By their own admission to be a catholic you have to receive communion in a catholic church, be baptised and confirmed. this wishy washy im a catholic because i believe in god but not the church is nonsense.

04-04-2011 02:14PM

In the past, the phrase "á la carte Catholic" was once used to describe someone who identified themselves as Catholic, but chose what to believe and what rules to obey like they were items on a menu.

So you might get someone who goes to Mass every Sunday but uses condoms the night before, or someone who believes that the wafer and wine are the body and blood of Christ but that it's okay to receive them without confessing one's sins beforehand.

Now many people feel free to describe themselves as Catholic without doing or believing a single thing to merit that description. It just means that they were raised a Catholic, or their parents are, or that they distantly associate it with other elements of Irish tradition or identity like nationalism or Gaelic culture or family or one's surname. As such, they're afraid to drop it because they think it will detract from some ill-defined identity.

I don't think it does anyone any favours.

schemingbohemia · 04-04-2011 02:16PM

ISAW wrote: »

Well you might wait for the census but I think you will find we live in a country were 95 per cent plus of the occupants are religious believers. Where do you get off dictating to people what they should believe?

You might use the time to consult a dictionary to find out what secular means.

The point isn't about privately held beliefs, it's about the State funding religious schools.

irishconvert · 04-04-2011 02:18PM

h2005 wrote: »

Its a secular country practice whatetever religion you like but don`t force your beliefs on me

Read the constitution, lots of references to God. The majority of Irish say they are Catholic. It's a Catholic country. If you don't like it, try to change it politically, or go live somewhere else.

irishconvert · 04-04-2011 02:22PM

Dave! wrote: »

It's certainly a predominantly (nominally at least) Catholic country, but what does that have to do with the education system? Can you give a reason why the education system and the majority religion should be in any way linked, as opposed to having a secular school system and people can pursue their religious agenda in their own time?

Why don't we introduce a socialist school system, where children are taught that socialism is the best political system available, given that the majority of the country are left-leaning (Fine Gael's recent election victory notwithstanding)?

The majority of the US population used to think that black people were inferior to whites, does that mean that it was alright to discriminate against them?

Also, wouldn't you agree that, as with voting, drinking alcohol, having sex, etc., children below a certain age can't really have any appreciation of what it means to be religious, or have given any real thought to what religion (if any) they would like to follow? Assuming you do, how is it fair to put children in a school of a faith that they never actually consented to opt into?

You're really advocating a school system to appease parents rather than to serve the best interests of the people who actually attend it (mainly under 18's).

I didn't say anything about the education system, i never said I agreed with schools being run by the catholic church, perhaps you are confusing me with another poster. As it stands it suits the state to have the Catholic church running many of the schools from a financial point of view. What do you think it stopping the state setting up multifaith schools everywhere one is needed?

Laminations · 04-04-2011 02:31PM

sensibleken wrote: »

I think you are confusing catholocism with christianity. By their own admission to be a catholic you have to receive communion in a catholic church, be baptised and confirmed. this wishy washy im a catholic because i believe in god but not the church is nonsense.

I've learned my lesson about categorising people from arguing with libertarians, they all have their own definition of the ideology with which they identify. You can't label someone with a religion based solely on their actions. Saying that Ireland is a Christian country, rather than a catholic country is a little concession. If people mark down catholic on a census form you need to take it at that. If religious belief is merely about adhering to rules, you'd have no true followers, or at least the ones who are would be considered fanatical extremists. Oh and by whose own admission?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-04-2011 02:33PM

irishconvert wrote: »

Read the constitution, lots of references to God. The majority of Irish say they are Catholic. It's a Catholic country. If you don't like it, try to change it politically, or go live somewhere else.

If there are references to God, then it's a Christian country, not a Catholic one.

The UK has references to God - their national anthem contains lots of them - but I don't think I'd ever describe them as a catholic coutnry.

jimmycrackcorm · 04-04-2011 02:37PM

My sister told me that it is next to impossible to get a child into a catholic school in London because there is such a huge demand and they are perceived to be excellent. Quite a contrast to attitudes here.

Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

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