Moment of truth for leftists (except scumlord because he likes The Zohan)

nowherefar · 29-03-2011 03:30PM

Playboy wrote: »

A government that spends significant sums on propaganda then accuses us of being brainwashed by the Palestinians who have no money, influence or support in the media.

Well just to put another slant on this (and I'm not taking sides

)..

Global population of muslims: 1.5 BILLION - presumably mostly pro-palestinian

Global population of jews: 14 MILLION - presumably mostly pro-israel

Now in this age of social networking, who has the most influence? 14M versus 1.5B? Thats verging on the sisyphean..

Just something to think about.

Also I'd be rather amazed if government (and other) spending on propaganda wasn't on all sides, not just the israelis. You'd be pretty naive to believe it only went one way.

Nodin · 29-03-2011 03:33PM

nowherefar wrote: »

Well just to put another slant on this (and I'm not taking sides )..

Global population of muslims: 1.5 BILLION - presumably mostly pro-palestinian

Global population of jews: 14 MILLION - presumably mostly pro-israel

Now in this age of social networking, who has the most influence? 14M versus 1.5B? Thats verging on the sisyphean..

Just something to think about.

Also I'd be rather amazed if government (and other) spending on propaganda wasn't on all sides, not just the israelis. You'd be pretty naive to believe it only went one way.

Its the advantage of being allied with a superpower, rather than anything else.

I might point out that 14 million jews do not, believe it or not, share the same views on the world.

nowherefar · 29-03-2011 03:39PM

Nodin wrote:

Its the advantage of being allied with a superpower, rather than anything else.

What advantage? My point is that these days social networking to some extent levels the playing field when it comes to propganda and influence - even if all 300M americans supported israel and posted to that effect online it is still only a fraction of the 1.5B muslims.

I might point out that 14 million jews do not, believe it or not, share the same views on the world.

I didn't say they do.. I said presumably most will support israel. Not all. Is that not true? What their other views are on the world in general is entirely another matter.

Nodin · 29-03-2011 03:42PM

nowherefar wrote: »

I didn't say they do.. I said presumably most will support israel. Not all. Is that not true? What their other views are on the world in general is entirely another matter.

Support of Israel does not nessecarily mean support of all or any of Israels policies in the OT. While I accept you added a caveat, I still think you overly generalised.

niallers1 · 29-03-2011 03:50PM

Oy vey, Oy veh...More of the he is an anti semite, he's not an anti semite..Oy vey...

It's all a load of tuchus

optogirl · 29-03-2011 03:52PM

I'm still confused - in what way is this the moment of truth?

RichieC · 29-03-2011 03:54PM

There should be the equivalent of a godwins law that states "when debating the Israel/Palestine conflict the probability of being libeled as an Anti Semite approaches one."

K-9 · 29-03-2011 04:07PM

Brooklynn Unkempt Postage wrote: »

Excellent movie.

Was it you who recommended in the Bobby Sands thread that I read 'A Killing Rage' ?.. Almost finished it, gripping read.

Nah, the Dirty War or John Stalker's book would have been me.

Is that about the Hunger strikes?

For some reason the Shankill Butchers came into my head there because of the name.

Anyway to bring it topic related, maybe Palestinians need to get a more united, commonly agreed approach, rather like the Hume/Adams talks and then the Irish Government advocating that as much as possible.

nacho libre · 29-03-2011 04:35PM

K-9 wrote: »

Nah, the Dirty War or John Stalker's book would have been me.

Is that about the Hunger strikes?

For some reason the Shankill Butchers came into my head there because of the name.

Anyway to bring it topic related, maybe Palestinians need to get a more united, commonly agreed approach, rather like the Hume/Adams talks and then the Irish Government advocating that as much as possible.

Erekat and Abbas took this approach by reining in the al-aqsa(?) brigade and making major concession to the Israeli's in peace talks, yet it still wasn't enough for the right-wing Israeli government of Nethanyu.

by the way another good movie on the north is http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1097643/

Wibbs · 29-03-2011 04:37PM

nowherefar wrote: »

What advantage? My point is that these days social networking to some extent levels the playing field when it comes to propganda and influence - even if all 300M americans supported israel and posted to that effect online it is still only a fraction of the 1.5B muslims.

True, but I imagine a large number of those Muslims would be without internet access, or only have one language. The biggest difference I think is that to the west Israel is a western nation. More to the point European and "white"(they're even in the Eurovision:D). Moreso than the Arabic nations and culture which would be seen much more as "foreign". Even from the religious angle in the west. Judaism would be seen(simplistically) as "oh that's the old testament isn't it?" whereas Islam would be again seen as more "foreign". Yes you have the right wing religious nutter Jews, but they're a lot less visible than the broadly secular ones. The reverse is generally the case with ME Muslim countries.

K-9 wrote: »

Anyway to bring it topic related, maybe Palestinians need to get a more united, commonly agreed approach, rather like the Hume/Adams talks and then the Irish Government advocating that as much as possible.

Sadly it would be my humble that this is not what Israel wants to happen, or more precisely a large chunk of the ruling class of Israel wants to happen. Better to paint the Palestinians as aggressive raghead terrorists. If you're in the public eye it's a lot easier to steal land from a mad mullah than from a Gandhi.

The Israeli · 30-03-2011 12:00AM

OK, guys. This thread can go on and on.
Nodin mentioned some horror incidents which I didn't check upon. I guess that they are true, though there are always two sides to every story, and things might look diferent after knowing both sides.

This conflict is very old. Many people got involved in it. There are jews who are garbage and there are arabs who are garbage, and.. there are Irish who are garbage. All you prove, that we are people.
I was talking before about the Israeli policy, and about what happens in general.
Firing rockets is a policy. Ask any Hamas member. Deliberately Killing palestinians isn't an Israeli goverment's policy - ask any hamas or Israeli citizen.
You can ask Hamas because they tend to fire in many cases from houses back yards and store weapons in mosques and Hospitals.

If anybody needs history lessons regaurding the Jewish history in the region starting back in 1880 (The first immigration wave) they can go to a liberary. They will find proves to the legitimacy of the Jewish settlement in Israel. I'm not interested in making up history. On the conterary, I accept every proven fact that you provide.

We can continue and discuss every incident that has happened since the beggining of the Zionism, but it won't bring any good.
I wish I could continue doing what I was doing forever and bring proves and vital information to backup my ideas, but it's a full time job.

New people that come to read this this thread don't benifit because all the information is baried under those 400+ comments.
Wibbs is showing again this map on which I've commented 100 comments ago and so on.

I hope that we all got better informed. I learned stuff too.
The point of this thread isn't to show: I'm good and right, and you are bad and wrong. The point is to show all sides, and let the people decide for themselves.
During the thread some people suggested positive ideas about how they think this conflict should be solved. Glad that there is pragmatic thinking among people that don't hold my opinion.

K-9 -You know, I saw "Hunger" already. I'll watch your second recommandation "Hidden Agenda" too.
Thanks for that!

Mighty_Mouse · 30-03-2011 02:51AM

I fail to comprehend the lack of self-doubt in pro-Israeli supporters at this stage. The agression towards Palestinians is so naked, blatant & hostile. To stand alone against unanimous world opinion without self-doubt is just unbelievable.

To look at a map for longer than 5 seconds & not appreciate Israel’s strategic importance to the US & not let this colour their judgement.
To slowly dissect a nations homeland over 40 years & each time agree the action was justified.

Countless World Bank, UN, NGO, condemnation sanctions & never once question the validity of state actions?
To trust state publicity, any state publicity anywhere in the world is naive, but in a war zone?
Never question that some or all of what you hear is propoganda?
For a highly educated poplulation to swallow every word of Isreal army press releases makes me gasp every time.

To stand alone, against the opinion of the world, with the USA on foreign policy & never let the US track-record over the last 60 years bother you?
Haiti, Nicaragua, Vietnam, East Timor,................

To witness the construction of a giant biblical-sized prison around a population and not wonder if this is how human beings should be treated?
To deprive people of fundamental human rights such as land, water, aid supplies. To bomb schools & bulldoze homes. To shoot children & women regularly.

The irony of a people living through Nazism only to persecute another.
The irony of Israelis living through Nazism only to have their suffering manipulated and sold back to them as politics of persecution twisting and morphing as fear-mongering in order to support US interests in an oil-race.

There's only a few ways this ends. Few of them long shots!
- Current Solution (Israel puppet state of US) - Wall remains, Slow humiliation of pelestinians for next 100years.
- Peak oil/Green economy replaces strategic importance of oil - US leaves region
- American loses super-power status - Social democratic revolution spreads across world .i.e. new government in Egypt withdraws support for Yanks, Sunni’s rise up in Bahrain Saudi Arabia, Brazil & Bolivia, Venezuela keeps America busy at home. Dollar collapse’s, American goes into a recession/depression. China dumps American treasury’s.
- WW3
- 2state/1state solution - lessons from Northern Ireland resolution implemented. Underlying grievances of disenfranchised population recognised & addressed through communication with their democratically elected representatives whom-ever they be.

wes · 30-03-2011 12:49PM

The Israeli wrote: »

Firing rockets is a policy. Ask any Hamas member. Deliberately Killing palestinians isn't an Israeli goverment's policy - ask any hamas or Israeli citizen.

Which proves less than nothing. Again, we have seen time and again, numerous incidents of the IDF targetting civilians. It has been established by the UN, and multiple Human Rights groups (including Israeli ones), as well as dozens of news stories, from various news organisations from right around the world. To point blank deny the constant attacks on civilians by Israel is as I said before, either denial or reality or someone deliberately lieing. Looking at the wealth of information that one can easily find via the Internet from so many sources, I find it hard to belive, that anyone can possibly believe such a thing.

Mark27 · 30-03-2011 01:41PM

Their animals those Palestinians. I was on holiday to Israel years ago and i had a great time, fanastic country and very nice people.

We spent three nights in Jersulam and on the second night we saw some local Palestinians in this sort of camp playing a game of soccer. My friend and i walked over to see if we could get a game and for no reason whatsoever, the group of Palestinians and attacked us and only that security came out of our hotel we could have been killed or even got our head chopped off.

And Mighty_Mouse - what bizzare reason could you have, for saying Israel is a puppet of America?? If that was the case would'nt they have done the americans bidding and gave in to palestine by now?

Just read that article on the family getting slaughtered, what kind of animal murders an 11 year odl girl with a knife??

Nuke them Israel!! Solves everyones problem

Nodin · 30-03-2011 01:46PM

Mark27 wrote: »

Their animals (..........)everyones problem

Wonderful.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 30-03-2011 02:02PM

Nodin wrote: »

Wonderful.

I wouldn't have bothered with it Nodin.

Nodin · 30-03-2011 02:05PM

Brooklynn Unkempt Postage wrote: »

I wouldn't have bothered with it Nodin.

I have this problem where I tend to go in with the club and think later.....

nacho libre · 30-03-2011 02:11PM

wes wrote: »

Which proves less than nothing. Again, we have seen time and again, numerous incidents of the IDF targetting civilians. It has been established by the UN, and multiple Human Rights groups (including Israeli ones), as well as dozens of news stories, from various news organisations from right around the world. To point blank deny the constant attacks on civilians by Israel is as I said before, either denial or reality or someone deliberately lieing. Looking at the wealth of information that one can easily find via the Internet from so many sources, I find it hard to belive, that anyone can possibly believe such a thing.

Your bemusement reminds me of the attitude from a Russian guy i was talking to some time ago, he insisted Russia invading Afghanistan back in the eighties was a noble deed. He pointed out the factories and other facilities they built in Kabul as a justification. So it just seems to me, for reasons of self-image/ identity, some people need to believe what their governments tell them no matter what, this is the only explanation I can find why they would blatantly ignore reams of information that directly contradicts their government's self-serving lies and propaganda. Indeed we've also seen this kind of attitude in Ireland over the last two years as well.

Nodin · 30-03-2011 02:30PM

nacho libre wrote: »

Your bemusement reminds me of the attitude from a Russian guy i was talking to some time ago, he insisted Russia invading Afghanistan back in the eighties was a noble deed. He pointed out the factories and other facilities they built in Kabul as a justification. So it just seems to me, for reasons of self-image/ identity, some people need to believe what their governments tell them no matter what, this is the only explanation I can find why they would blatantly ignore reams of information that directly contradicts their government's self-serving lies and propaganda. Indeed we've also seen this kind of attitude in Ireland over the last two years as well.

The majority of the population has involvement in the IDF as well, which makes even the most liberal balk at some of the notions expressed, even though you'd often be hard pushed for anyone who has much time for the settler movement (though that would not nessecarily equate with much sympathy for Palestinians). A lot of settlers seem to take a 'more Jewish than thou' approach which obviously rubs many liberal/secular Israelis up the wrong way.

As for Israeli society generally itself, its hard to understand (for me at least), in that you have a large segment of the population that is left wing, liberal enough (going on voting patterns) but that never really has translated into a real and genuine effort to rein in the settlers, even when their numbers were in the tens of thousands.

Mighty_Mouse · 30-03-2011 11:44PM

And Mighty_Mouse - what bizzare reason could you have, for saying Israel is a puppet of America?? If that was the case would'nt they have done the americans bidding and gave in to palestine by now?

Since 1976, Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6948981.stm

2 seconds google search.have a quick look yourself

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

The United States has vetoed 24 UN resolutions related to Palestine.
They're not concerned about conflict resolution. For strategic purposes (oil) they require a heavily armed Israel in the middle east.

http://www.google.ie/#q=american+palestine+vetoes+history&hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&tbs=tl:1,tl_num:100&prmd=ivns&ei=dK-TTbTsMYaAhAfBp53fCA&ved=0CGkQywEoBA&fp=dfc277fa025a30ed

And again Feb 2011 i.e. after 2008 attacks

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-18/u-s-vetoes-palestinian-bid-at-un-to-halt-israeli-settlement-construction.html

Various Palestinian negotiation teams have bent over backwards to facilitate Israel requests. All turned down:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Papers

A Guardian editorial stated, "It is hard to tell who appears worst: the Palestinian leaders, who are weak, craven and eager to shower their counterparts with compliments; the Israelis, who are polite in word but contemptuous in deed; or the Americans, whose neutrality consists of bullying the weak and holding the hand of the strong. Together they conspire to build a puppet state in Palestine, at best authoritarian, at worst a surrogate for an occupying force. To obtain even this form of bondage, the Palestinians have to flog the family silver. Saeb Erekat, the PLO chief negotiator, is reduced at one point to pleading for a fig leaf: 'What good am I if I'm the joke of my wife, if I'm so weak,' he told Barack Obama's Middle East envoy George Mitchell

Look at a map, then look at the money, then look at USA support for Israel.
Throw into the mix US regard for human rights in South America,
Consider the illegal oil war in Iraq after Sept 11th attack by Bin Ladin (afganistan)

Consider the millions of innocent civilians slaughtered in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq, Afganisatan, Columbia, Nicaragua, .........
Americans know exactly what they are doing.
Their goals are strategic & geo-political.
This is not some innocent happy go-luck empire stumbling from one crisis to the next. They are supporting israel for a reason.
The tanks are american, the choppers are american, the guns, bullets, drones, planes, are american etc.

Stand back, pretend your from mars. What do you see?

nowherefar · 02-04-2011 12:26PM

Seems that the rest of the middle east (and much of the world in fact) is also a puppet of the US (and the EU and..)

The US has given Egypt an average of $2bn annually since 1979

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/8290133/Most-US-aid-to-Egypt-goes-to-military.html

The history of American aid to Jordan goes back to 1951. Total aid given until 1997 is estimated at $3.9bn including $2.1bn in economic assistance and $1.8bn in military aid.

Not to mention billions given to lebanon, the palestinians and all sorts of others. I'd hazard a guess and say that overall more US aid was given to arab and muslim nations than to Israel. In fact..

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip receive one of the highest levels of aid in the world
..
The lion's share of the aid comes from the European Union and the United States. According to estimates made by the [[World Bank] The Palestinian Authority received $525 million of international aid in the first half of 2010, $1.4 billion in 2009 and $1.8 billion in 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

So basically the US and the EU and all sorts of others with money to burn, donate billions every year to other nations to support their own interests.. what else is new?

nowherefar · 02-04-2011 12:29PM

wes wrote: »

Which proves less than nothing. Again, we have seen time and again, numerous incidents of the IDF targetting civilians. It has been established by the UN, and multiple Human Rights groups (including Israeli ones), as well as dozens of news stories, from various news organisations from right around the world. To point blank deny the constant attacks on civilians by Israel is as I said before, either denial or reality or someone deliberately lieing. Looking at the wealth of information that one can easily find via the Internet from so many sources, I find it hard to belive, that anyone can possibly believe such a thing.

Speaking of which..

We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

Now if only he hadn't said it on april 1st.

The Israeli · 02-04-2011 01:10PM

nowherefar wrote: »

Speaking of which..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

Now if only he hadn't said it on april 1st.

WOW, that's an amazing statement coming from a man whose report concidered to be the ultimate and the unbiased truth.. the bible of the Cast Lead operation for the Israel haters.

irishconvert · 04-04-2011 10:06AM

nowherefar wrote: »

Speaking of which..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

Now if only he hadn't said it on april 1st.

What a joke, but what do you expect when the author of the report is a zionist Jew.

wes · 04-04-2011 11:16AM

nowherefar wrote: »

Speaking of which..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

Now if only he hadn't said it on april 1st.

I believe Judge Goldstone to be a decent man, but if there is new evidence, then surely it needs to be investigated independently, and unfortunately, the UN report he cites, says very clearly that Israel did not cooperate with, and as such we have no real way of knowing what this evidence is. So if we are to know what happened, then surely this new evidence needs to be investigated independently and not by the IDF.

To quote the report that Judge Goldstone refers too:

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/16session/A.HRC.16.24_AUV.pdf

--SNIP--
Israel
77. Although the Committee was able to access official information detailing the progress of some investigations by the Israeli authorities since September 2010, it relied largely on media reports and other secondary sources to inform its deliberations. The Israeli authorities’ refusal to allow the Committee access to Israel and the West Bank, and access to Gaza through Israel, significantly constrained the Committee’s ability to engage with key interlocutors.

78. That said, the Committee finds that Israel has dedicated significant resources to investigate over 400 allegations of operational misconduct in Gaza reported by the FFM and others. Given the scale of this undertaking, it is unsurprising that in 2011, much remains to be accomplished. The Committee is able to report that, to the best of its knowledge, nineteen investigations into the serious violations of international humanitarian law and international human rights law reported by the FFM have been completed by the Israeli authorities with findings that no violations were committed.
Two inquiries were discontinued for different reasons. Three investigations led to disciplinary action. Six investigations reportedly remain open, including one in which criminal charges have been brought against an Israeli soldier. The status of possible investigations into six additional incidents remains unclear.

78. Furthermore, Israel has launched fourteen investigations into incidents related to alleged violations in the West Bank. Of those, two criminal indictments have been filed, six investigations are ongoing and six cases were closed without charges. The Committee did not receive any information concerning any other investigation of alleged violations committed in the West Bank, nor to investigations related to persons detained in Israel.

79. The Committee reiterates the conclusion of its previous report that there is no indication that Israel has opened investigations into the actions of those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw Operation Cast Lead.

80. However, the Committee notes the work of the Turkel Commission and its probing of some decisions and policies adopted by high-level officials in Israel. The Commission was able to interview and actively question high-level officials, including the Prime Minister, the Defense Minister, the Chief of General Staff, and the Chief Military Advocate, and examined questions related to the legality and the enforcement of the blockade on Gaza, as well as the question of whether the impact of the land crossings policy constitutes collective punishment. The Committee concludes that a public
commission constitutes one of the mechanisms that Israel could use to assess high-level operational and legal decisions concerning the execution of the military operation in Gaza.

81. Concerns related to transparency and the participation of victims and witnesses in investigations reported by the Committee in its previous report continue to be relevant. NGOs, victims and their legal representatives have difficulty accessing information about progress in investigations. They report that the majority of their requests for information go unanswered. The Committee is of the view that transparency and participation help build the confidence of victims and other interested parties in the investigation process, including fostering a sense that credible and genuine investigations are taking place.

82. The Committee has strong reservations respecting the promptness of some investigations of individual incidents referred to by the FFM. More than one-third of the 36 incidents in Gaza are still unresolved or unclear. The status of investigations into incidents in Israel and the West Bank is also unclear. Presumably this serious issue respecting the ability of the military justice system promptly to investigate allegations of wrongdoing during military operations is under careful review by the Turkel Commission.

83. Finally, the Committee is concerned about the fact that the duration of the ongoing investigations into the allegations contained in the FFM report -- over two years since the end of the Gaza operation – could seriously impair their effectiveness and, therefore, the prospects of ultimately achieving accountability and justice.
--SNIP--

The report in its conclusions states that investigations have taken place, but as can be seen from the conclusions, it also raises concerns about the investigations, and it also shows that the investigators were not given the access they required. So, I find Judge Goldstones conclusions on the basis of this report to be odd, as the report that he cites, only partially backs up what he says, in that investigations took place, but as can be seen in paragraphs 77, 81, 82, and 83 there are major concerns about these investigations, which Judge Goldstone doesn't mention. So considering the concerns raised by the report that he himself cites, it is strange that he doesn't mention these at all, and I think the conerns certainly are enough to put Israeli investagation conclusions in doubt, and as I said before, clearly an independent investigation is needed to look at Israel's evidence, assuming that they will cooperate with one.

The Israeli · 04-04-2011 11:27AM

Wes, your thinking is correct, but you do understand that even if IDF cooperated with the commitee it still couldn't deliver to the commitee everything they wanted because there are security matters and classifications involved.
I believe that if he went to the media and made a statement that has degraded the value of his work by that much, then there must be something in it..

The Israeli · 04-04-2011 11:30AM

deleted - my mistake.

You know what Goldstone himself said regaurding the Human Rights Concil?

I had hoped that our inquiry into all aspects of the Gaza conflict would begin a new era of evenhandedness at the U.N. Human Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted.

And you know, instead of immediately trying to find flaws in Goldstone's words, you may look at the "half full part of the glass" (it's a hebrew proverb. Maybe English also) and say:
" Well, I don't know maybe it's not as good as it describes itself, but there is a good chance that IDF isn't so bad after all. At least not as it was pictured in the original report. hmm.."

wes · 04-04-2011 12:00PM

The Israeli wrote: »

deleted - my mistake.

You know what Goldstone himself said regaurding the Human Rights Concil?

And you know, instead of immediately trying to find flaws in the Goldstone's words, you may look at the "half full part of the glass" (it's a hebrew proverb. Maybe English also) and say:
" Well, I don't know maybe it's not as good as it describes itself, but there is a good chance that IDF isn't so bad after all. At least not as it was pictured in the original report. hmm.."

Yes, but he clearly doesn't think the report to be biased, as he did cite one such report from the same council in the same op-ed. So he can't have it both ways, so again this just add to the confusion of what he is saying, considering the report comes from the same organisation he accuses of bias.

Also, considering that Judge Goldstone was running his own investigation, and I am sure he considers himself to be unbiased, then Israel no cooperating with him, just makes them look bad imho.

Again, I think the Judges comments are rather confusing.

irishconvert · 04-04-2011 12:06PM

wes wrote: »

Again, I think the Judges comments are rather confusing.

I think someone made him an offer he couldn't refuse

Nodin · 04-04-2011 01:53PM

irishconvert wrote: »

What a joke, but what do you expect when the author of the report is a zionist Jew.

Do please keep the jew bashing to yourself. The rest of us don't want to be associated with it.

Moment of truth for leftists (except scumlord because he likes The Zohan)

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