Who's going to carry Green politics in Ireland?

dlofnep · 26-03-2011 04:23PM #1

With the demise of the Green Party, I have to say - while I've always been conscious about the environment, I'm curious as to who's going to take the ball and run with it?

Nobody really wants to talk about green politics under the current economic climate (no pun intended), but it is certainly something that we're going to have to discuss, real soon - with the rise in fuel prices, and the pending peak oil crisis.

Now, I'm not talking taxation to clean up the environment. We all know India, China and the US have the real role to play in cleaning up the environment. And while we can do our tokenistic bit here in Ireland (which we should) - what I'm really talking about is renewable resources.

Do we need the likes of the Green Party back, under new leadership and a new backbone - one with a realistic vision.. or can another political party carry the torch and start implementing green politics?

Einhard · 26-03-2011 04:30PM

The Greens will.

They haven't gone away you know!;)

Seriously, rumour of their demise has been greatly exaggerated. The parliamentary party might have been wiped out, but the Green movement itself is still quite strong. I don't think the Greens are like the PDs, whose disastrous election showing was a prelude to their winding up. For the PDs, parliamentary representation was very much an end in itself, whereas I think that for the Greens, it is more a means to an end. So I think they'll be around for a while, and that the Green Party will continue to carry Green politics in Ireland. Indeed, the fact that such politics will probably not be wildly popular makes it even more likely that it will fall to the Greens to push them.

dlofnep · 26-03-2011 04:47PM

Do you think the public might start to become more attentive as fuel & heating prices continue to rise? Is it time the Government started to hold serious discussions on how we can best prepare for the pending crisis?

Nodin · 26-03-2011 04:48PM

dlofnep wrote: »

With the demise of the Green Party, I have to say - while I've always been conscious about the environment, I'm curious as to who's going to take the ball and run with it?

Nobody really wants to talk about green politics under the current economic climate (no pun intended), but it is certainly something that we're going to have to discuss, real soon - with the rise in fuel prices, and the pending peak oil crisis.

Now, I'm not talking taxation to clean up the environment. We all know India, China and the US have the real role to play in cleaning up the environment. And while we can do our tokenistic bit here in Ireland (which we should) - what I'm really talking about is renewable resources.

Do we need the likes of the Green Party back, under new leadership and a new backbone - one with a realistic vision.. or can another political party carry the torch and start implementing green politics?

A green party thats in touch with the rural population is whats needed.

danbohan · 26-03-2011 04:51PM

Nodin wrote: »

A green party thats in touch with the rural population is whats needed.

yes, not one that tries to deny people the opportunity to live in rural areas like the last bunch . that bunch fools have done so much damage to the green image in Ireland that it will be decades before its undone

bazza1 · 26-03-2011 04:56PM

The Green party will go underground and re emerge as the Provisional Green Party and will split into the Real Green Party and the Continuity Green Party!:D

johngalway · 26-03-2011 05:04PM

Nodin wrote: »

A green party thats in touch with the rural population is whats needed.

That's an interesting idea. It's tough enough making a living in rural Ireland without being hammered by fuel taxes and farming by calendar on top of it.

My problem with the carbon tax on diesel and petrol is there was no readily available alternative, so the motivational ingredients read as "100% stick, hold the carrot".

Inverse to the power of one! · 26-03-2011 05:29PM

Why do we need a political party for the Green cause?

In NZ the Green outlook is a societal one which is in place regardless of which party is in power, anything that endangers their Green image is tackled head on by majority and a reluctance to endanger one of the most pristine environments in the world.

In fact there's a lot that could be said for society taking up these causes itself as opposed to relying on political parties, I think the Irish Greens have given a costly lesson in that regard.

Denerick · 26-03-2011 07:00PM

Greens will be back. They just mightn't ever get a parliamentary seat for a generation or so. They were a luxury of the Celtic Tiger; we can't afford luxuries like that anymore.

Spudmonkey · 26-03-2011 07:26PM

A few weeks quite a number of people on here were delighted to see the back of the greens. Id assume these same people would be expecting the new government to take charge of these issues.

later12 · 26-03-2011 08:01PM

Many of our European neighbours have no Green Party representation in their national parliaments and I cannot realistically see that either they or the planet are any the worse off for that.

In fact it is worth mentioning that the most meaningful green initiatives in this country were actually taken by Fianna Fail and did not come from the GP at all.

I believe that the sole legacy of the GP in Ireland, which is dead, will be civil partnership.

Corsendonk · 26-03-2011 08:04PM

Who is likely to take the leadership of the Greens?

later12 · 26-03-2011 08:08PM

Corsendonk wrote: »

Who is likely to take the leadership of the Greens?

I would think Dan Boyle, but in the capacity of a campaigner as opposed to a continuing Senator obviously, having no chance of re-election.

gurramok · 26-03-2011 08:57PM

Their policy of fuel hikes hit the poor as well as ordinary workers harder more than the rich. When that 8c rise was slapped on petrol a couple of years ago, the rage against the greens was at boiling point among my friends and colleagues, it was like the last straw.

Scofflaw · 26-03-2011 09:12PM

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Why do we need a political party for the Green cause?

In NZ the Green outlook is a societal one which is in place regardless of which party is in power, anything that endangers their Green image is tackled head on by majority and a reluctance to endanger one of the most pristine environments in the world.

In fact there's a lot that could be said for society taking up these causes itself as opposed to relying on political parties, I think the Irish Greens have given a costly lesson in that regard.

The Irish Green Party exists largely because Irish society at large doesn't seem to have any desire to take up such causes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

flutered · 26-03-2011 09:18PM

a green party who sprout sense, not the drivel we have had to endure for some time, my lasting impression of the green party is, they propped up f.f. while they raped my country, that will take a lot of forgiving, they also were running with the idea of putting a 20 euro tax on all cattle each year, i do not own any cattle, also i take my envoirnmet duties seriously, the main ingrediant of any movement has to be common sense, something the greens never had or used.

CokaColumbo · 26-03-2011 09:25PM

I welcome the demise of the Green Party and was relieved to see that their annihilation at local level was followed by their annihilation at national level. They have been relegated back to the fringes of society where they belong.

Neo-environmentalism and the Green Economy destroys productive, private sector employment and carbon taxes disproportionately harm the least well off in society. Less wind-mills, more jobs is what I say!

ei.sdraob · 26-03-2011 09:50PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Do you think the public might start to become more attentive as fuel & heating prices continue to rise? Is it time the Government started to hold serious discussions on how we can best prepare for the pending crisis?

What crisis? 2/3rds of petrol price is tax, people are not stupid you know they know they are being ripped of and by the state no less.

Scofflaw · 26-03-2011 11:43PM

gurramok wrote: »

Their policy of fuel hikes hit the poor as well as ordinary workers harder more than the rich. When that 8c rise was slapped on petrol a couple of years ago, the rage against the greens was at boiling point among my friends and colleagues, it was like the last straw.

I continue to find this one really quite weird - and hold up just a second before everyone hits me at once, because I'm genuinely curious here.

The 'carbon tax' was a carbon tax in name only. It was exactly the same size as a standard budget excise rise - slapping 4.3c on a litre of petrol is an absolutely bog-standard rise in excise:

A new carbon tax of €15 Euro per Tonne was announced in the 2010 Budget. The tax will apply to Petrol and Diesel from midnight tonight.
Petrol will go up by 4.2c a litre and diesel by 4.9c a litre

So why the fury? As ei.sdraob points out, 2/3rds of the price of petrol is made up of tax - the result of years of excise rises, all about the same size as the so-called 'carbon tax'. Why is this particular excise rise the object of so much fury? Would a tax by any other name not cost as much?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nodin · 26-03-2011 11:50PM

johngalway wrote: »

That's an interesting idea. It's tough enough making a living in rural Ireland without being hammered by fuel taxes and farming by calendar on top of it.

My problem with the carbon tax on diesel and petrol is there was no readily available alternative, so the motivational ingredients read as "100% stick, hold the carrot".

....it's just they come across as a group of urban-centric 'meat grows on trees' people (yes, thats a generalisation, but that is the perception). There seemed to be no link to people far more affected by their policies than town and city dwellers, which struck me as rather bizarre, given the supposed agenda of the party.

the groutch · 27-03-2011 12:51AM

hopefully nobody, Green politics is just a case of tax everything in anyway connected with global warming/greenhouse effect (both of which are pure BS, they even contradict each other)

Corsendonk · 27-03-2011 01:30AM

later10 wrote: »

I would think Dan Boyle, but in the capacity of a campaigner as opposed to a continuing Senator obviously, having no chance of re-election.

Is that a joke? He did run for the Dail in the last election and polled as one of the worst(2.5%) of the Greens big hitters. His constant twitting irriated and alienated many voters that had given the greens transfer votes in the past. He was Cardinal Richelieu to John Gormley Louis XIII.

gurramok · 27-03-2011 02:42AM

Scofflaw wrote: »

I continue to find this one really quite weird - and hold up just a second before everyone hits me at once, because I'm genuinely curious here.

The 'carbon tax' was a carbon tax in name only. It was exactly the same size as a standard budget excise rise - slapping 4.3c on a litre of petrol is an absolutely bog-standard rise in excise:

So why the fury? As ei.sdraob points out, 2/3rds of the price of petrol is made up of tax - the result of years of excise rises, all about the same size as the so-called 'carbon tax'. Why is this particular excise rise the object of so much fury? Would a tax by any other name not cost as much?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Add another year, it happened in October 2008, time flies

Then the other rises after that, mostly tax/excise based, must of been at least 20cent in petrol alone.

Thing is, penalising people for using fuel is penalising the vast majority of consumers and most importantly does not discriminate between rich and poor. On the environment front, Ireland is small fry in the global pollution stakes relating to fuel, there was no need to hike fuel so much, that is forgotten by the Greens.

Liam Byrne · 27-03-2011 02:49AM

Spudmonkey wrote: »

A few weeks quite a number of people on here were delighted to see the back of the greens. Id assume these same people would be expecting the new government to take charge of these issues.

We're delighted to see the back of the type of Greens that were in power - those that supported the corrupt FF and voted for NAMA and put all of the fines and charges in place for not choosing the right alternatives without doing an iota to provide the alternatives; the ones that punished people who were ALREADY being green.

If a decent, well-thought-out green movement emerges from the ashes of the previous shower of has-beens, then great.

But the zealots have been - rightly - punished for (as has been said already) being 100% stick and 0% carrot.

Good riddance to those, but not to a sustainable and fair green initiative, whoever may take it on.

Inverse to the power of one! · 27-03-2011 12:52PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

The Irish Green Party exists largely because Irish society at large doesn't seem to have any desire to take up such causes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Chicken and Egg?

But I'm not sure about Irish society not having any desire to look after what we have, add to that the Irish greens did more to alienate people from Green causes then take them up. But I can see that you're right in that the origins of the Greens came about during a time of little interest, but how long ago was that?

We're quite gung-ho about renewables seeing the opportunity to make some cash as well as looking to address our energy requirements, probably not as altruistic as well meaning Green's would like, but none the less things have changed and can change further if we focus more having the existing parties look after the environment as opposed to placing faith in a party by it's nature that attracts firebrands that care for nothing but their single cause and how they think it should be implemented, the rest of us be damned.

A political party is a handy focus point for particular causes, but ultimately as a minority party in our form of parliamentary democracy is ineffectual and potentially self-defeating as I believe the Green party in Ireland has just demonstrated in the strongest sense.

Having seen the NZ model with my own eyes, I believe it far more effective that society champion these causes........or I suppose we could ask the German Greens come and bailout the Irish Greens

ei.sdraob · 28-03-2011 08:56AM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Why is this particular excise rise the object of so much fury? Would a tax by any other name not cost as much?

1. Because its yet another tax on a list of taxes pushing the price up (and not just petrol)

2. The money collected was not used elsewhere as counterbalance as promised

Anyways I am for one happy to see this party running on politics of fear, doommongering and telling lies go away. They promised alot and made more noise about their "ethics" and "integrity" but when the time came they shown to be no different to the people they claimed to despise.

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

I suppose we could ask the German Greens come and bailout the Irish Greens

The German Greens done well on the back of Japanese events, like I said politics of fear, now they will help the country burn more coal and add more CO2 to the air

ednwireland · 28-03-2011 10:19AM

Scofflaw wrote: »

I continue to find this one really quite weird - and hold up just a second before everyone hits me at once, because I'm genuinely curious here.

The 'carbon tax' was a carbon tax in name only. It was exactly the same size as a standard budget excise rise - slapping 4.3c on a litre of petrol is an absolutely bog-standard rise in excise:

So why the fury? As ei.sdraob points out, 2/3rds of the price of petrol is made up of tax - the result of years of excise rises, all about the same size as the so-called 'carbon tax'. Why is this particular excise rise the object of so much fury? Would a tax by any other name not cost as much?

cordially,
Scofflaw

this is exactly what really p****d me off about the greens they dress up a standard revenue raising excercise as a green tax (which is supposed to allright because its green) just call it what it is a tax.
stop trying to pretend its somehow going to change peoples behaviour where there is no alternatives (i have an oil boiler i really wanted a wood pellet boiler, well actually a log burning boiler but when it was going to cost me the guts of 20k+ its not going to happen (11k for a decent boiler, extend boiler house put in storage etc etc ) honestly these people really dont live in the real world

dynamick · 28-03-2011 11:33AM

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Why do we need a political party for the Green cause?

In NZ the Green outlook is a societal one which is in place regardless of which party is in power, anything that endangers their Green image is tackled head on by majority and a reluctance to endanger one of the most pristine environments in the world.

The New Zealand Green Party is the third largest in parliament.

later10 wrote: »

Many of our European neighbours have no Green Party representation in their national parliaments and I cannot realistically see that either they or the planet are any the worse off for that.

In the German state elections in Baden-Wuerttemberg (population 10m), the Greens are now the largest party and Germany will have its first Green 'minister president' of a German Land.

http://bilder.bild.de/fotos/winfried-kretschmann--13463496/Bild/1.bild.jpg

ei.sdraob · 28-03-2011 03:06PM

This is bad news for environment and peoples health
no nuclear plants will be build to replace old ones that need to go (what are chances of tsunami in Germany?) instead they be replaced by yet more dirty coal of which Germany is already burning plenty

oh goody goody go Greens **** up the environment some more

dlofnep · 28-03-2011 04:34PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

What crisis? 2/3rds of petrol price is tax, people are not stupid you know they know they are being ripped of and by the state no less.

I'm not referring to the high-taxation on fuel costs. I'm talking about when the demand for fossil fuels exceeds the available supply, and fuel prices sky-rocket. We're going to see many wars in the middle-east over the next 3-4 decades with intent of controlling fuel-resources.

Essentially, I feel we have become over-dependent on these said fuels and that as an island nation, we are in a prime position to start working on renewable energy so that we are prepared for the pending fuel crisis when it comes. It may not happen in the next 10 years, but it's certainly feasible within the next 30.

This is worth a browse: http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/Oil_Peaking_NETL.pdf

It discusses transportation fuel issues, rising fuel costs due to an unsustainable demand, energy supplies and so forth.

I'm not anywhere near an expert on green issues. I'm trying to educate myself more on it - But I certainly see some causes for concern with the unsustainability of fossil fuels.

Scofflaw · 28-03-2011 04:54PM

Couple of answers there, thanks, but not quite hitting the target.

gurramok wrote: »

Add another year, it happened in October 2008, time flies Then the other rises after that, mostly tax/excise based, must of been at least 20cent in petrol alone.

Thing is, penalising people for using fuel is penalising the vast majority of consumers and most importantly does not discriminate between rich and poor. On the environment front, Ireland is small fry in the global pollution stakes relating to fuel, there was no need to hike fuel so much, that is forgotten by the Greens.

OK - but the following years' excise rises were just that, excise rises. The Greens got their name on one excise rise and people are now associating them with all the excise rises, even though excise rises on fuel are a standard part of a tax-raising Budget?

ednwireland wrote:

this is exactly what really p****d me off about the greens they dress up a standard revenue raising excercise as a green tax (which is supposed to allright because its green) just call it what it is a tax.

OK, and now we've called it a tax, which I have no problems with, why does it get special outraged treatment? That's what I'm trying to understand here. We've had excise rises before, and there has never really been any promise of compensatory payments or anything for such rises - they're tax. And a Green tax is a tax, too.

So there's an objection because it was a tax, and an objection that seems to be based on there having been other such taxes, none of which attracted the same notoriety as this one.

Why is this particular one in a long series of excise rises so outrageous just because it happens to have the Green label? Aside from for those people who believe that taxes are intrinsically evil and scientists incompetent or bent?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Who's going to carry Green politics in Ireland?

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