thesis on external insulation (ewi)

FarAdr · 14-03-2011 03:07PM

PaulieBoy wrote: »

Good to hear!
You should consider going to one of the "training courses" offered by the suppliers, posing as a potential installer. It's the old "get in and out" as quick as you can to make money. The results are there to see for anybody with a keen eye. As noted "trainees" are told to use as little adhesive etc as possible as the price is now on the floor! Insulation is not supposed to get wet. I've seen houses being washed out of it with insulation exposed. Were blow heater used to dry them out before the finish was applied ? You know the answer to that !
The system is a "hack" to insulate a building, it may work if applied correctly in the appropriate setting. It's not something you would let a cowboy builder install in a damp climate.
I feel sorry for the honest people that are throwing their money away on this.
Totally off topic but our damp climate is totally wrong for timber frame houses for the exact same reason, bad detailing and constant attack will see premature wood decay in the frame. It's Ireland!

I think ill look into that, I'm meeting with a few suppliers this week and next to ask questions so i might ask about training.As the fella said below, cowboys are across the board for every trade and system. Sure everyone trys to jump on the band wagon for new systems.. make a few bob!! just like the tarmaccing a few years back. The solution to cowboys is to get certified fitters to install the system and keep a close eye.. They have to be insured after all. With regards what your saying about the blow heaters your right. Last week I asked a supplier about moisture already within the wall, and his solution was a dehumidifier...I know it works, but again, how do you measure it completely? I still think the external insulation is a good system if applied correctly, its getting the best overall solution for each building is the problem.
I do however disagree with the statement on timber frame, yes if they get left open to the elements and the frames lie out in the rain without protection they will suffer, but as for heating them, this is the main benefit.. and I suppose workmanship comes into it again as everything, but the way many have been left in recent years would no doubt put people in the frame of mind that all timber frames have been left out to rot for a period of time which isn't the case.

sas wrote: »

The "our climate is different" argument is thrown around alot. I've not seen anyone produce the numbers to show the over all affect on building systems however. I don't dispute that we get alot of rain. We do get quite a bit of wind too and have a relatively mild climate which combined does contribute to the overall drying effect. If you've got something concrete on this please provide link as I'm sure the OP would find it useful for his thesis.

The rest of what you posted is about cowboy suppliers and cowboy builders. This applies across every system. There's companies going around pumping all sorts of stuff into cavities for next to nothing and home owners are only too glad to let them do it. I've no issue with pumped cavities as long as it's a material that is suitable for it. You get my point however.

There is information and facts to back up our climate and I shall have a look for them and post them. As you say every system has its cowboys.. but also every system has its flaws. Its gaining the best possible solution at that particular time for a particular budget that people aim for I think. Its like the multi foil insulations... said to be 10 times greater than all others with regards thickness... not the case, because if its compressed, it loses its air which is what it needs to perform. And in fixing it, whether it be across studs behind plasterboard or whatever, it has to be compressed in areas, so therefore its not an ideal solution. Suppose you can't always believe whats on the tin.

Oh and just as you have said about all sorts being pumped into cavities, I worked for a fella who build a new house there and he was told by a supplier, pump the cavity with rockwool... I dont think this is advisable.. we all know it sags and when wet will shrink etc etc and measuring the amount or area which has been covered with it would be very hard... And he himself was a builder.. he was also told it performs better than 'silver beads' as I think they are called. Good salesmen could sell anything to those who do not know or investigate. Just my opinion...

PaulieBoy · 14-03-2011 03:31PM

sas wrote: »

As regards the climate, as I said in an earlier response, I would like to see studies to back up the claims that these systems aren't suitable. I could point to NSAI certs that say they are.

It's not my job to convince you we live in a "damp" climate. You may consider otherwise, that's your call. The reason it get's "thrown around a lot" is because it's true! We do live in a damp climate. Fact.
I am not saying it's not suited to a damp climate. I am saying that because it's used in Europe for years does not mean it's suited to our climate, which was the point a poster was making.
I am not making any claims, just asking questions of those that do.
It's an unproven system in this country at this point.
Second, poor workmanship in hanging a door, or fitting a kitchen is one thing, poor workmanship in doing something that is critical to ensure the long life of the product is entirely another. Bad detail in this damp climate is a guarantee that you will have problems, problems that may not surface in another climate.
If I was about to shell out thousands for a "system" I would like to be 100% sure it's the one for me. NASI certs, and some sales literature from a guy that was selling cheap electricity last week would not convince me.
Sorry about that!

sydthebeat · 14-03-2011 03:53PM

as regards where the information is, theres plenty of meteorigical information available out there for public consumption see met eireann and other european databases.

this data is co-related and used in software such as WUFI and used to work out condensation risks in construction build ups. Obviously this information and the way its used is only available to purchasers of the software, as it has been assessed and gathered in depth by the manufacturers...... so the information is out there.

sas · 14-03-2011 04:19PM

Thanks syd.

What I was looking for was information outlining how our entire climate (not just the rain component) affected systems such as EWI.

PaulieBoy · 14-03-2011 04:24PM

sas wrote: »

Thanks syd.

What I was looking for was information outlining how our entire climate (not just the rain component) affected systems such as EWI.

Sorry. I thought you had that information-your above post indicates so-and that you had actually got proof that this system is in fact up to our climate ?
Sorry if I have that all wrong!
Regardless, at the end of the day you pays your money and you takes your chances :-)

FarAdr · 14-03-2011 04:45PM

WUFI.... and I know the very fellow that has the rights to wufi in ireland. We've had lectures with him. I actually have a colleague that got a free licence from wufi for his thesis.... great programme, but very hard to learn.. that certain man isn't much help either, as he fears competition.
Dunno if I said it before sas, but i did hear that mould can grow on certain facades... not sure which they stated.. or where it was that it happened.. could have been the west. Again not to put you off... and i got back as far as your groundworks there.... foundations were mad...

sas · 14-03-2011 04:48PM

PaulieBoy wrote: »

Sorry. I thought you had that information-your above post indicates so-and that you had actually got proof that this system is in fact up to our climate ?
Sorry if I have that all wrong!
Regardless, at the end of the day you pays your money and you takes your chances :-)

I can point to NSAI certificates that cover this country. I don't believe I indicated anymore than that.

sas · 14-03-2011 04:54PM

FarAdr wrote: »

Dunno if I said it before sas, but i did hear that mould can grow on certain facades... not sure which they stated.. or where it was that it happened.. could have been the west. Again not to put you off... and i got back as far as your groundworks there.... foundations were mad...

Yeah, it's a concern on the north facade alright. Could result in an annual clean up operation. You're not putting me off, I've built with block on the flat, I've no other option.

Depends on how much greenery there is in close proximity to the house.

That house that was renovated that you mentioned has had ongoing problems with it the owner told me. It's completely surround by mature trees however.

I've actually heard this with alot of the coloured renders, not just the EWI ones.

I can handle a bit of elbow grease type maintenance.

Mould tends to be one of those things that sets in fast. A friend of mine finished his EWI job a year ago and nothing so far afaik. There's hope basically.

sydthebeat · 14-03-2011 05:39PM

i think you are getting 'mould' mixed up with 'moss'.

mould is a bacterial mass indicate a rot or decay. moss can grow on surfaces after being carried from nearby vegetation by winds. Moss grows on a lot of surfaces and i wouldnt say that its a problem specific to acrylic renders, though they certainly are affected by it.

manufan16 · 14-03-2011 06:02PM

Hi all, very interesting reading above!

I am building ICF soon enough and the only area that is bugging me is the external render.
Could I have your opinions or findings from research on the idea of building a block leaf outside of the ICF rather than the render directly applied to the EPS?

Many thanks in advance.

FarAdr · 14-03-2011 06:11PM

manufan16 wrote: »

Hi all, very interesting reading above!

I am building ICF soon enough and the only area that is bugging me is the external render.
Could I have your opinions or findings from research on the idea of building a block leaf outside of the ICF rather than the render directly applied to the EPS?

Many thanks in advance.

insulated concrete formwork?? its kind of a different topic in a way. Are you on about block on flat, externally insulating which in turn won't be external as your going to build another leaf? Sorry, I'm kind of lost.
is this what your on about and then a block leaf outer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUoWsmRD9mA

sas · 14-03-2011 06:27PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

i think you are getting 'mould' mixed up with 'moss'.

mould is a bacterial mass indicate a rot or decay. moss can grow on surfaces after being carried from nearby vegetation by winds. Moss grows on a lot of surfaces and i wouldnt say that its a problem specific to acrylic renders, though they certainly are affected by it.

Probably, I tend to interchange the two when talking about green stuff on render.

Thanks

manufan16 · 14-03-2011 07:02PM

FarAdr wrote: »

insulated concrete formwork?? its kind of a different topic in a way. Are you on about block on flat, externally insulating which in turn won't be external as your going to build another leaf? Sorry, I'm kind of lost.
is this what your on about and then a block leaf outer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUoWsmRD9mA

hi FarAdr,
Yes the Youtube video is the ICF construction method Im talking about with a block leaf outer, i have my construction drawings specified in the Kore system.
They recommend the weber ext render but the feedback from my build being out to tender was some contracters proposing a 4inch block leaf on its side, tied to the EPS with a 25mm gap between EPS and Block then sand and cement finish rather than the render directly applied to the EPS.

I hope I am not hijacking this thread but posted here as biddyearly advised early in thread that she had done a thesis on ICF and worked as a site engineer on an ICF build and ecountered problems with cracking on the ext render, that why Id like to hear opinions from posters on this thread

sas · 14-03-2011 07:18PM

manufan16 wrote: »

hi FarAdr,
Yes the Youtube video is the ICF construction method Im talking about with a block leaf outer, i have my construction drawings specified in the Kore system.
They recommend the weber ext render but the feedback from my build being out to tender was some contracters proposing a 4inch block leaf on its side, tied to the EPS with a 25mm gap between EPS and Block then sand and cement finish rather than the render directly applied to the EPS.

I hope I am not hijacking this thread but posted here as biddyearly advised early in thread that she had done a thesis on ICF and worked as a site engineer on an ICF build and ecountered problems with cracking on the ext render, that why Id like to hear opinions from posters on this thread

Biggest problem I've heard of it any of these renders is that they are simply not tolerant of the cold while being applied. In some cases the render needs to be applied above 4 degrees and the temps must stay above 4 degress for 48hours afterwards. I don't see too many builders willing to wait for those types of conditions.

How are they planning to tie the block and icf?

heinbloed · 14-03-2011 11:18PM

A major problem can occures with freezing temperatures. The outer surface doesn't get warm, water in it and below it(between render and EPS) freezes and deterioates the system. Ice cristalls are sharp and expand.

The major problem here in Ireland is the ignorance of the laws of physics. The material and it's specifications are not investigated. Get the ability to withstand windload guaranteed in writing (incl. the calculation and/or independant test results) from the person who fixes the system and plasters it, from the contractor. And check the weather map for your local max. wind load meassured in the last 50 years.
Most would run away from this exercise.

Here are two warnings on external wall systems, well the links toward them:

http://www.enbausa.de/daemmung-fassade/aktuelles/artikel/architekt-will-wdvs-im-neubau-verbieten-lassen-1933.html

(the former chief of the German architects association about the freezing-and-destruction effect described above)

and

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/34/34113/1.html

( an alarming article about the chemicals contained in the EWS, mainly the biozides, hazardous waste, incl. reputeable sources and links).

Try google 'translate' for both articles. The former was also reported recently in the English building and construction press.
If you need help translating phrases let me know.

The facit of both articles is that the EWIS won't last for more than 30 years on average. And therefore are a waste of money and resources (energy). Both make a point for the monolithic wall in new builds, EWIS only to be used for renovation projects with a high energy safing potential and the economics of the exercise to be calculated for not more than 30 years.

PS

Here an interview with Maeckler:

http://www.heise.de/tr/artikel/Nachhaltig-bauen-nicht-verpacken-1205269.html

(title translated: "sustainable building instead of wrapping" )

FarAdr · 15-03-2011 01:25AM

looked through them there, sent christophs office an email to see if I can get any info off him. He does seem to have a point with the whole build a building that'll last 150 years. What is tried and tested.
There are many theories about the systems, more good than bad, but maybe it is because it hasn't been tested here too much as of yet. Time may tell. Aeroboard I think done testing here from their office which was externally insulated in 1966, and they state that its still the same.... they would though!

It is the whole moisture thing that baffles me, its said that its been tested over europe, but as stated, we do have a damper climate. And it may open a whole can of worms..
Systems are covered for what 30 odd years? Is it enough for something that is intended to last a lifetime, or a persons?

Manufan16...
There was an apartment building constructed in Ballinagh in Cavan using what you are saying but with brick on the outer facade. Didn't look into it much as it was approx 6years ago.. first I had seen of the technology. I do know that there was a house on Grand designs done with it also... could have been called the tower house or water tower... maybe if you looked it up, the constructor may have a practice or something and you could get in touch with regards directly applying the render.

heinbloed · 15-03-2011 09:00PM

There is a failed EWIS exercise to be seen for the general public at Orchard Road in Cork, opposite the VW dealer.
Cracks, mould, algea, lichens or moss.
The building is unoccupied since it was build except for the lower floors facing the main road.
I came across when they did the job (external insulation) and had my doubts. 2 moths ago I saw it again - almighty. Maybe now in the hands of NAMA.
Who do banks employ to control where the morgages/ loans go ? Irish specialists for foreign methods?

Check also Cork University hospital. There the external insulation system at the southside as well as on the westside of the new wing seem to delapitate. Parts of the new extension aren't occupied yet. Visit it, you can the see the fascade elements warping, some parts missing (taken-off for forensic inspection?).
The job there is published in the
Schueco book ( a fascade system company ) "Facades-Building Envelopes for the 21st Century" on page 423 (only the glass fascade shown there, the aluminia fascade covering the insulation material not done yet when going to print), ISBN 978-3-7643-9959-7. Publisher is Birkhaeuser, Switzerland.

There are plenty of amateurs here in Ireland who do not understand what they're doing on-site.

fclauson · 15-03-2011 10:08PM

Lots of info etc

But given that I am about to build in Wexford would you

a) block-cavitiy with bead-block
which has a U value of about 0.15 - but if you have a wider than normal cavity then you have problems inserting windows with zero cold bridge

b) block externally insulated with Wood-fiber then render
woodfiber used as it "breaths"
U value of about 0.19 - but then you have issues mentioned in this artical

Francis

heinbloed · 17-03-2011 12:51PM

Fclausson asks 'what would you do?'

If I was unfamiliar with building technologies I would ask and pay a civil engineer to answer my questions. In writing and signed.

Using organic matter on the outside of an exposed structure will cause eternal ongoing overhead costs.

FarAdr · 24-03-2011 07:50PM

fclauson wrote: »

Lots of info etc

But given that I am about to build in Wexford would you

a) block-cavitiy with bead-block
which has a U value of about 0.15 - but if you have a wider than normal cavity then you have problems inserting windows with zero cold bridge

b) block externally insulated with Wood-fiber then render
woodfiber used as it "breaths"
U value of about 0.19 - but then you have issues mentioned in this artical

Francis

Hi Francis,

Still undesided as to what I think is the best... I'm definately nowhere near gone off the subject no matter what heinbold says. For new build, the way I look at it is I wouldn't use woodfibre... or this is my opininon for now. I have a tutor who is currently constructing a house using ewi. He himself has a masters in facades. He using a three lettered company, not hard to guess who. And he using the higher grade eps.... and using 150 of it.. as he says, it'll not get you passiv hous but it'll be damn good. And in using 150, its certified and guaranteed by the company.
Cannot say enough how critical the detail is... and moreso workmanship!! we've all seen the best of contractors, who do great jobs... but this is specialist, and its the tiny areas that have to be looked at.
With regards impact, the agremont certs state the conditions of impact.
If able to, i'm going to conduct a test for my dissertation on impact and see what each system can withhold.

heinbloed · 24-03-2011 10:06PM

Thanks for coming back, FarAdr.

You wrote:

And in using 150, its certified and guaranteed by the company.

Could you tell us to which wind force the system is guaranteed? For how long, how much guarantee in years?

Thanks.

FarAdr · 24-03-2011 11:13PM

heinbloed wrote: »

Thanks for coming back, FarAdr.

You wrote:

Could you tell us to which wind force the system is guaranteed? For how long, how much guarantee in years?

Thanks.

Don't understand what your getting at. There are certs available for the individual systems with regards guarantee.
Wind force?? Can you explain further.. I didn't think that wind force was an issue when somethings adhesively fixed and plugged and rendered!!
I was on about impact force....

heinbloed · 24-03-2011 11:37PM

The EWIS systems I know are guaranteed to withstand certain windforces. If they're installed in places where the experienced windforce is stronger than the guarantee the manufacturer's gives simply ceases.

EVERY guarantee of a facade system holds this parameter.

The Austrians go to 130 -135 km/h. Once every 50 years, such a facade is then guaranteed for 60 years. These are the most stringent ones I came across. The Swiss use a different method of guaranteing.
Both countries are high in the Alps, so windforces are important.

The Germans won't guarantee anything in that range, they use a map with 'red spots' where no guarantee is given by the manufacturers, the system providers. The coasts and the alpine regions.
They ask the consumer to get a guarantee from the specifier, their architect or civil/statical engineer.

So I wonder who guarantees a EWIS system in Ireland where every spot on the map receives at least once per 50 years windforces exceeding 145 km/h ?
See Met Eireann's publications.

Windforces >145 km/h could mean also 160 km/h, several times per 50 years. And the climate doesn't get milder. We had now these extreme winds twice in the last ten years.

Note that the system's guarantee is nilified if the windforce exceeds the guaranteed value.
Meaning that an EWIS fixed in 2009 and exposed above the guaranteed windforce in 2010 will have NO guarantee anymore in 2011.

Read the contract.

So again: which EWIS is guaranteed in Ireland ?

Such a guaranteed EPS/plaster EWIS system would be worth to look for a patent. There is none, so far. As far as I know, that is...

FarAdr · 25-03-2011 12:10AM

your totally against it heinbold.... easy to see this, but what irish products of any kind do you know of that state what wind speed they can withstand?? When you put up a turbine, would it be stated that wind speeds over a certain force will break it??
Also, most products aren't spec'd for what happens every now and again. Worst case scenario is what your getting at I feel, worst case scenario is changing with the way the world changes.... japan etc. but just as a question natures work isn't covered in general is it?? national disasters etc.. just fishing here, so don't read too much into it.

heinbloed · 25-03-2011 12:26AM

I have asked the good question, I think:

FarAdr wrote about a person who is using an EWIS system :

He himself has a masters in facades. He using a three lettered company, not hard to guess who. And he using the higher grade eps.... and using 150 of it.. as he says, it'll not get you passiv hous but it'll be damn good. And in using 150, its certified and guaranteed by the company.

And when I ask what this guarantee actually means there comes the answer in the last post of FarAdr ....

Again:

What type of system is guaranteed ? What are the contract (guarantee!) conditions?

A " master in facades " sounds like a title which doesn't exist in the real world, FarAdr.
I've heard similar imagined 'titles' used by cowboy builders trying to lure incompetent clients into a contract. Hear-say for sale....
So come up with facts please.

FarAdr · 25-03-2011 01:10AM

i'll get back to you with regards the guarantees.. I have meetings next week.

And what might your professional field be??
Also to add, there aren't to many if any articles or documents which state that ewi doesn't work. We are not in Germany, one architect isn't going to convince the world... at least not until he is dead. And having read the articles, which I may thank you for, Chris isn't totally against them, he wanted to protect facades, keep tradition! He has stated that there is no better alternative for some buildings.
Also, in the past few years, roofs have come off buildings with the high winds within the city centre.... do you think that the supplier should guarantee that this won't happen??? Course not, any product is only as good or will perform as it has been fitted!!! bad trades means bad performance..
Maybe you should give it a chance... or is there a bee stinging behind all your negative comments...

heinbloed · 25-03-2011 01:36AM

FarAdr wrote:

There are certs available for the individual systems with regards guarantee.

Would you mind to post a link towards a cert
where we could get information on it's suitability for IRISH conditions?

Thanks.

heinbloed · 25-03-2011 01:44AM

We are willing to hear what "thesis" there is to be defended, OP.

FarAdr · 25-03-2011 01:43PM

You answer a question with a question... thanks!!

And thesis.... its about coming to a conclusion, or perhaps not being able to come to one but doing an investigation in order to come to one or the other.

You show us the facts that state it doesn't work here then. I had concerns to begin with but I feel if the right product is chosen for the right application we shouldn't have a problem.

heinbloed · 26-03-2011 01:20PM

To what wind forces are the EWIS guaranteed you have seen so far, FarAdr ?

thesis on external insulation (ewi)

Comments