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Should we be making it harder to remain on the social welfare gravy train

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Comments

  • #62
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    sollar wrote: »
    I don't think many would have a problem with a decent job seekers benefit. Its the jobseekers allowance that is the problem - far too many work shy layabouts on this year after year. Wht should they get the same as people who have earned and built up credits.

    Why should they get less? One word answers that. Equality.


  • #63
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Offy wrote: »
    Why should they get less? One word answers that. Equality.

    Surely equality would also require them working, now i am not refering to the present times as I do understand how difficult it is to get a job now.

    However post 07 there were a number of long term unemployed and that should have been seriously looked at, there was no equality in them claiming and the rest of us working to pay for it.

    Most self proclaimed free speech absolutists are giant big whiny snowflakes!



  • #64
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Offy wrote: »
    Its a catch 22 really, I have to limit the number of interviews I go to each week because of the cost of petrol, dry cleaning, eating away from home, etc. Living without a wage does not accommodate looking for work, it simply covers food, rent, electric, etc. The basics and nothing more. There also exists a cost to finding a job and SW does not cater for that so jobseekers on SW actually have to make personal sacrifices to get out of that trap.

    cost of petrol, dry cleaning, eating away from home

    or , you could try , public transport / hitchhiking , home laundry , {you have the time } and bring a sandwich.


  • #65
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    gbee wrote: »
    The First Tuesday is the busiest night in the pubs and clubs. Nuf said.


    That'd be all the first-class citizen employed with children spending the child benefit then?
    Fair play, one does need to unwind sometimes...:rolleyes:


  • #66
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    Surely equality would also require them working, now i am not refering to the present times as I do understand how difficult it is to get a job now.

    However post 07 there were a number of long term unemployed and that should have been seriously looked at, there was no equality in them claiming and the rest of us working to pay for it.

    Until the government can provide the jobs its a no win situation. I agree that it is a problem but until jobs are available a SW system is needed.


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  • #67
    RobbieTheRobber
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Offy wrote: »
    Until the government can provide the jobs its a no win situation. I agree that it is a problem but until jobs are available a SW system is needed.

    No I accept that at present trying to reform the SW is not entirely pratical.

    Most self proclaimed free speech absolutists are giant big whiny snowflakes!



  • #68
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    danbohan wrote: »
    cost of petrol, dry cleaning, eating away from home

    or , you could try , public transport / hitchhiking , home laundry , {you have the time } and bring a sandwich.

    What a silly post. I live in Tubbercurry, public transport is a joke in the sticks. If I used it I would have to stay overnight somewhere. Are you going to suggest I buy a tent and camp out too? Try hitching to Dublin from Tubbercurry and see if you can get there and back in one day.
    Home laundry with a suit? Or should I turn up in t-shirt and jeans? Suits need dry cleaning.
    Bring a sandwich, ok thats not silly :)
    The point been that it cost money to go to interviews, even public transport for one interview can cost up to as much as 12% of a weeks dole. That really means a night without fuel for the fire or one day of going very hungry.


  • #69
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    No I accept that at present trying to reform the SW is not entirely pratical.

    No but the proposal for reform need to be drawn up now. It will take years to change the system but it should be started right now.


  • #70
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    RobbieTheRobber wrote: »
    Surely equality would also require them working, now i am not refering to the present times as I do understand how difficult it is to get a job now.

    However post 07 there were a number of long term unemployed and that should have been seriously looked at, there was no equality in them claiming and the rest of us working to pay for it.
    Before the recession hit our unemployment rate was somewhere between 3-4% or somewhere around 150,000 which is perfectly normal in any functioning economy due to naturat attrition and people moving between jobs, redundancies and layoffs were happening even in the boom and people were out of work for genuine reasons, usually for a short period, and they were replaced with other people who lost their jobs keeping the figure around the 3-4%. Certainly there will always be a number of long term unempoloyed but it is not the massive scam people are making it out to be, I welcome anybody to show evidence (not anecdotal) showing we had a large number of long term unemployed pre 07-08.

    There may have been many people on disability or single mothers etc, but that is a different story entirely.


  • #71
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Offy wrote: »
    Why should they get less? One word answers that. Equality.

    Its nothing to do with equality it should lowered each year as a disincentive for those that see it as a lifestyle choice.

    The names jobseekers benefit and jobseekers allowance should be changed so its very clear. People on Jobseekers benefit can be rightly upset at being called layabouts etc, not so for the long termers.

    If someone is still on the dole 3 or 4 years down the line it could be called (WSA) Work Shy Allowance ;)


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  • #72
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Offy wrote: »
    What a silly post. I live in Tubbercurry, public transport is a joke in the sticks. If I used it I would have to stay overnight somewhere. Are you going to suggest I buy a tent and camp out too? Try hitching to Dublin from Tubbercurry and see if you can get there and back in one day.
    Home laundry with a suit? Or should I turn up in t-shirt and jeans? Suits need dry cleaning.
    Bring a sandwich, ok thats not silly :)
    The point been that it cost money to go to interviews, even public transport for one interview can cost up to as much as 12% of a weeks dole. That really means a night without fuel for the fire or one day of going very hungry.

    if you chose to live in a place like tubercurry and your seriously looking for a job on the east coast then perhaps you should move there , you are just making excuses , keep making them and you will remain unemployed , you are receiving one the highest unemployment benifits in europe , i would be suprised if by 2013/14 it is not 50% of what it is now , people in the rest of the world manage to find jobs on a lot less welfare than irish unemployed get


  • #73
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,557 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    If you want to see where public money is being p*ssed all over the place in terms of wastage, ask yourself why Michael O' Leary's wife, the wife of a man who made 13 million Euro in the exercise of share options alone last year, before you even look at a cent of his salary and bonus, is automatically entitled to Child Benefit payments for 3 kids.

    Before anyone tries to climb up on the back of any man or woman who is trying to survive on 188 Euro a week with no hope of getting a job, ask why those that have no need whatsoever for Child Benefit are automatically entitled to it...

    How much wealth and taxes does O'Leary generate for this country?! you want to make it even less worthwhile to work? O'Leary might not be the best example. Lets take 2 working parents, both earning say 50k each gross, a huge amount of their wages are going towards PAYE and USC. You are trying to tell me, that those working contributing, should be penalised and those not working, some who have never contributed should be entitled to every benefit under the sun? In Germany eveything is based on how much you pay in, it makes it worth your while to work, and declare taxes and not help black economy. Ofcourse in Ireland, we are all the same, the poor should live like the rich on the riches back! Bit funny its called jobseekers benefit or allowance considering the amount of them on it that never have any intention of working! Now this may only be 5-10%, but its still 45,000 odd!


  • #74
    dx22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭dx22


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    If you want to see where public money is being p*ssed all over the place in terms of wastage, ask yourself why Michael O' Leary's wife, the wife of a man who made 13 million Euro in the exercise of share options alone last year, before you even look at a cent of his salary and bonus, is automatically entitled to Child Benefit payments for 3 kids.

    Before anyone tries to climb up on the back of any man or woman who is trying to survive on 188 Euro a week with no hope of getting a job, ask why those that have no need whatsoever for Child Benefit are automatically entitled to it...

    Thats not Mrs. Leary's fault is it tho...?

    Im sure Mr. O' Leary and Ryanair have contributed more than their fair share to the social welfare system by paying employer PRSI and thus securing social welfare benefits for his employees should they need them!


  • #75
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    This was a thread topic before albeit in AH.

    The general consensus was that it was demeaning way of administering welfare, even though it would probably mean that the right people are getting the right things, any money isn't being wasted on non-essentials.

    If you've been on the dole, and I have, it is demeaning anyway. It should be demeaning, it should be a last resort. If you actually need it you won't care.

    Being self employed I would be delighted to be entitled to a card like that if I had no income next month or my business failed.


  • #76
    dx22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭dx22


    professore wrote: »
    If you've been on the dole, and I have, it is demeaning anyway. It should be demeaning, it should be a last resort. If you actually need it you won't care.

    Being self employed I would be delighted to be entitled to a card like that if I had no income next month or my business failed.

    Me too...thats the real scandal i think...that self employed people get nada if they go out of business. It discourages entreprenuership which is the only way this country is going to get out of the hole its in!!


  • #77
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    danbohan wrote: »
    if you chose to live in a place like tubercurry and your seriously looking for a job on the east coast then perhaps you should move there , you are just making excuses , keep making them and you will remain unemployed , you are receiving one the highest unemployment benifits in europe , i would be suprised if by 2013/14 it is not 50% of what it is now , people in the rest of the world manage to find jobs on a lot less welfare than irish unemployed get


    missoc.org

    Go do the comparisons for yourself.


  • #78
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,990 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I think the overhead involved in the OPs suggestion would make it impracticable. We must move BACK to unemployment benefit being a real insurance based system (as it was until 25 years ago). Your levels of PRSI contributions should reflect your unemployment benefit payments for a set time, then you should see phased reduction in benefits to a minimum subsistence level. That level would be lower than the current €188 and MUST eventually (sooner rather than later if we are not to sink Ireland in an ocean of debt) head to levels comparable to the United Kingdom. We can't afford to pay ourselves more "because we're worth it".

    People who work and lose their jobs should have a cushion. This should gradually be removed to ensure people don't get to comfortable on benefits. Anyone denying that there is a hardcore of benefit professionals is not living in the real world. I don't believe they make up the majority of benefit claimants BUT we must avoid the newly unemployed letting unemployment become their way of life.

    If people can't find jobs in Ireland, then they should look elsewhere I'm afraid.


  • #79
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    dx22 wrote: »
    Me too...thats the real scandal i think...that self employed people get nada if they go out of business. It discourages entreprenuership which is the only way this country is going to get out of the hole its in!!

    This is not true. A self-employed person is entitled to means-tested jobseekers allowance.


  • #80
    Coconut Joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 ✭Coconut Joe


    I was thinking about a card based system myself recently. The way I'd like to see it work is you get a little bit of cash which you are obviously free to spend as you wish, the remainder is given as credit on your card which can only be used to buy Irish made products and services, this way there's no sudden chunk of money removed from the economy and the majority of the money paid out will go directly to Irish business. Problem is of course is how much something like this would cost to implement.


  • #81
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    murphaph wrote: »
    I think the overhead involved in the OPs suggestion would make it impracticable. We must move BACK to unemployment benefit being a real insurance based system (as it was until 25 years ago). Your levels of PRSI contributions should reflect your unemployment benefit payments for a set time, then you should see phased reduction in benefits to a minimum subsistence level. That level would be lower than the current €188 and MUST eventually (sooner rather than later if we are not to sink Ireland in an ocean of debt) head to levels comparable to the United Kingdom. We can't afford to pay ourselves more "because we're worth it".

    People who work and lose their jobs should have a cushion. This should gradually be removed to ensure people don't get to comfortable on benefits. Anyone denying that there is a hardcore of benefit professionals is not living in the real world. I don't believe they make up the majority of benefit claimants BUT we must avoid the newly unemployed letting unemployment become their way of life.

    If people can't find jobs in Ireland, then they should look elsewhere I'm afraid.

    +1
    This I agree with.
    To go around in the times we are in, saying that everyone on the dole is the same etc,etc indicates (to me anyway), that you haven't got the first idea about what's going on in the real world.


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  • #82
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Coconut Joe wrote: »
    I was thinking about a card based system myself recently. The way I'd like to see it work is you get a little bit of cash which you are obviously free to spend as you wish, the remainder is given as credit on your card which can only be used to buy Irish made products and services, this way there's no sudden chunk of money removed from the economy and the majority of the money paid out will go directly to Irish business. Problem is of course is how much something like this would cost to implement.


    The majority if not every last penny of someone's JSB/JSA payments in this country is spent locally - and that's for the vast majority of recipients.


  • #83
    Coconut Joe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 ✭Coconut Joe


    gambiaman wrote: »
    The majority if not every last penny of someone's JSB/JSA payments in this country is spent locally - and that's for the vast majority of recipients.

    True, but i was aiming a bit higher than spent locally, going for produced locally wherever possible.


  • #84
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Coconut Joe wrote: »
    True, but i was aiming a bit higher than spent locally, going for produced locally wherever possible.


    Cost would be a big factor.


  • #85
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    perhaps you would have an idea how to stop spending 2/3s of the governments yearly intake on welfare??
    That's fairly straightforward, create lots of well paying jobs. :D

    Everyone is coming at this from the wrong angle in my opinion, yes welfare is too generous but if you reduced direct dole payments to zero you would knock a whopping 20% off the welfare bill. The fact is, if the jobs are there people will work, during the boom we had almost full employment.

    The solution to most of the economic woes afflicting Ireland today is to create, beg, borrow, or steal jobs and get them in here. I'm not especially bothered about how that affects other countries, they have plenty of very intelligent people working fulltime figuring out how to do the exact same thing to us.

    This is where government policy must be focused, primarily. This is where our energies should be going, this is the direction we must take if we are to build a decent future for ourselves.


  • #86
    westies4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭westies4ever


    this is a very tricky and prickly subject - in my line of work (debt counselling) i see both sides every day. There are the poor sods who are out of work through no fault of their own, who are really struggling to get by and would do anything to get a job. They are definitely not coining it on on the dole. I feel so sorry for them.

    Then there are the professionals, the ones claiming everything - lone parent when they live with a partner, rent allowances they shouldnt be entitled to etc etc etc, they know every trick in the book

    I interviewed one lady, single parent, four kids (all different fathers), yes she worked 2 hours a day cleaning, but that only netted her about €200 a month. With all her welfare and maintenance payments totted up her net income was €4.5k a month. I could have cried.

    I don't know what the answer is, maybe just more careful monitoring to ensure the system isnt being manipulated.


  • #87
    intolerant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭intolerant


    padma wrote: »
    I see your point, though you have to admit people who work also take their money out of the country on holidays. As for going on a bender, sure the tax man gets that anyway. The only thing I can see really is cash is a problem for everyone.

    My friend for example lost his job, gets 188 euro a week, 4 euro during winter for heating, and 15 euro a month for mortgage relief. He has no money. He is on the dole. He's credit card is maxed. He has a loan out he can't repay. He is constantly in and out of the bank looking for an extension on a moratorium.

    Fact is he doesn't get his lighting and heating paid for, he doesn't get his mortgage paid for. He is out of work a year now and the prospects of a job haven't appeared. Minimum wage jobs aren't there anymore. He would take on a minimum wage job but hasn't had any luck probably because he is overskilled.

    What I'm saying is you aren't the only one in a bad situation and the welfare isn't the gravy train that your making it out to be for a large proportion of the recipients on it.


    Your last paragraph makes complete sense, show me the individuals that were on back to work schemes and the dole in general between 1999 and 2007 and ill show you the ones we need to deal with. I am a hard working Public Sector worker (there are a few you know) and i have no problem paying taxes or taking pay cuts which in turn will support my fellow beings who lose their jobs. We need to cherish those that have genuinely lost their jobs during this financial mess and help them all that we can, on the other hand i firmly believe that to those that have been on welfare for an extended time we should reduce their payments after 2 years by €10 per month. This might not sound much but when someones payment goes from €220 PW to €160 PW in 6 months they will start to feel the pinch and get off their ass! As long as it pays to be out of work, the laziest in our society will linger!

    There will always be genuine cases where people need a dig out but lets weed out the idle and support the portion of Private Sector workers who have lost everything!


  • #88
    not yet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    westies4ever wrote: »
    this is a very tricky and prickly subject - in my line of work (debt counselling) i see both sides every day. There are the poor sods who are out of work through no fault of their own, who are really struggling to get by and would do anything to get a job. They are definitely not coining it on on the dole. I feel so sorry for them.

    Then there are the professionals, the ones claiming everything - lone parent when they live with a partner, rent allowances they shouldnt be entitled to etc etc etc, they know every trick in the book

    I interviewed one lady, single parent, four kids (all different fathers), yes she worked 2 hours a day cleaning, but that only netted her about €200 a month. With all her welfare and maintenance payments totted up her net income was €4.5k a month. I could have cried.

    I don't know what the answer is, maybe just more careful monitoring to ensure the system isnt being manipulated.
    Yeah but the problem is you have people coming on here saying........prove it, or yeah I bet you know someone who knows someone. The bleeding heart brigade in this country need to get real......4-5 billion could be saved on SW if the system worked correctly.

    I live in an apartment complex where 70% of people claim rent allowance, this is a joke when you consider how bad the situation really is.And before the do-gooders get on asking ''but where are they meant to live'' where the fcuk did they live in the 80s.........at home,or with friends. how did we get to a stage where the state pays for luxury 2-3 apartments for long term layabouts.


  • #89
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,593 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    The SW system is meant to provide enough of an income for an individual or a family to have a reasonable standard of living.

    Its debatable whether or not 'this standard of living' should include the ability to pay for alcohol, broadband, or Sky TV.


  • #90
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    not yet wrote: »
    Yeah but the problem is you have people coming on here saying........prove it, or yeah I bet you know someone who knows someone. The bleeding heart brigade in this country need to get real......4-5 billion could be saved on SW if the system worked correctly.

    I live in an apartment complex where 70% of people claim rent allowance, this is a joke when you consider how bad the situation really is.And before the do-gooders get on asking ''but where are they meant to live'' where the fcuk did they live in the 80s.........at home,or with friends. how did we get to a stage where the state pays for luxury 2-3 apartments for long term layabouts.

    how did we get to a stage where the state pays for luxury 2-3 apartments for long term layabouts

    hopefully germany and the rest eu will push into making sure we end this nonsense


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  • #91
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    danbohan wrote: »
    if you chose to live in a place like tubercurry and your seriously looking for a job on the east coast then perhaps you should move there , you are just making excuses , keep making them and you will remain unemployed , you are receiving one the highest unemployment benifits in europe , i would be suprised if by 2013/14 it is not 50% of what it is now , people in the rest of the world manage to find jobs on a lot less welfare than irish unemployed get

    Im not unemployed, Im a student. Yes I am on social welfare but thats by the by.


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