Why can't a medium PROVE the ability exists?

Dave! · 22-03-2011 03:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would psychics volunteer themselves to organisations who make money selling magazines and video discrediting them ? If a psychic were to prove them wrong then the industry is dead .

lol, what a pathetic cop out

Any scientist who conducted replicable research that demonstrated psychic ability would overturn decades of scientific research, turn everything we know about the universe on its head, and would get a Nobel prize for their troubles.

So, if their motive is financial, the Nobel prize will earn you $1.4 million. Why don't they go for it?

BTW, the Skeptics Society and the Center for Inquiry in the US are both non-profit organisations.

MrStuffins · 22-03-2011 03:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would psychics volunteer themselves to organisations who make money selling magazines and video discrediting them ? If a psychic were to prove them wrong then the industry is dead .

This is probably the weakest and worst argument i've ever heard. Not only on the subject, but on any subject!

Bravo Sir!

22-03-2011 06:27PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is probably the weakest and worst argument i've ever heard. Not only on the subject, but on any subject!

Bravo Sir!

No that award has already gone to you my friend .

You have tested 2 mediums and they were both wrong .

You cant really be bothered to test anymore

From the your testing you have come to the conclusion that ........

"Fine, but all of them were fake as sh*t!"

"in fact, any "psychic" or "Medium" who has ever been tested has been found out to be full of sh*t! Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation."

Now how can i argue against those cold hard facts

Actually you should publish your findings . I can publish them for you if you cant be bothered .

edwinkane · 22-03-2011 06:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No that award has already gone to you my friend .

You have tested 2 mediums and they were both wrong .

You cant really be bothered to test anymore

From the your testing you have come to the conclusion that ........

"Fine, but all of them were fake as sh*t!"

"in fact, any "psychic" or "Medium" who has ever been tested has been found out to be full of sh*t! Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation."

Now how can i argue against those cold hard facts

Actually you should publish your findings . I can publish them for you if you cant be bothered .

Have you an actual argument? Or are you just content to avoid argument and harangue other posters?

22-03-2011 07:21PM

Dave! wrote: »

lol, what a pathetic cop out

Any scientist who conducted replicable research that demonstrated psychic ability would overturn decades of scientific research, turn everything we know about the universe on its head, and would get a Nobel prize for their troubles.

So, if their motive is financial, the Nobel prize will earn you $1.4 million. Why don't they go for it?

BTW, the Skeptics Society and the Center for Inquiry in the US are both non-profit organisations.

Lol I wasn't actually serious with that comment. But from what you were saying they are non profit. Are you telling me that there is nobody in the society turning profit ??

edwinkane · 22-03-2011 07:27PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol I wasn't actually serious with that comment. But from what you were saying they are non profit. Are you telling me that there is nobody in the society turning profit ??

More questions and still no argument. The problem with cyberspace, which you seem to have yet to grasp, is that humour, or not being serious, just isn't always apparent to others.

MrStuffins · 22-03-2011 07:34PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No that award has already gone to you my friend .

You have tested 2 mediums and they were both wrong .

You cant really be bothered to test anymore

From the your testing you have come to the conclusion that ........

"Fine, but all of them were fake as sh*t!"

"in fact, any "psychic" or "Medium" who has ever been tested has been found out to be full of sh*t! Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation."

Now how can i argue against those cold hard facts

Actually you should publish your findings . I can publish them for you if you cant be bothered .

Holy mother, now your argument includes trying to put words into other mouths.

Never did I say my beliefs were based on those who I "tested" (they werent even formal tests, but you DID ask).

Also, you said I should "publish" my results? If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd realise why this statement is ridiculous! One of the psychics I "tested" was from Boards. The results are published on Boards. I have mentioned it in this thread already.

Now, do you actually have anything to contribute or are you simply trolling?

Dave! · 22-03-2011 07:40PM

I don't know the details of their finances, the staff all probably earn salaries though. Doubt they're very much though, they could probably make more money doing most other things. There's more money in Paranormal stuff than skeptical stuff if it's the lucre that they're after.

I can tell you though that for example Steven Novella from the New England Skeptical Society doesn't have any books out, and contributes to blogs and podcasts in his spare time for free, when he's not working as a neurologist. The NESS do investigations and conduct tests, if any psychics fancy proving anything.

You must have a really distorted idea of how much money is floating about the skeptical movement by the way... Take a look on the bookshelfs, on TV, in movies, on advertisement posters. You'll be doing well to find something skeptical amid the pool of Paranormal propaganda. Skeptical organisations are usually run from donations.

If you want to get rich, skepticism is the wrong road to take.

Like I said, there's a likely million dollars waiting for anyone who shows that psychics are real, so why isn't anyone doing it?

MrJonDonnis · 22-03-2011 07:42PM

Why hasn't any medium ever proven their claims?
Easy, because mediumship is impossible.

22-03-2011 08:19PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

Holy mother, now your argument includes trying to put words into other mouths.

Never did I say my beliefs were based on those who I "tested" (they werent even formal tests, but you DID ask).

Also, you said I should "publish" my results? If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd realise why this statement is ridiculous! One of the psychics I "tested" was from Boards. The results are published on Boards. I have mentioned it in this thread already.

Now, do you actually have anything to contribute or are you simply trolling?

This thread is why cant a medium prove their ability. Your posts caught my eye merely because you seem to be so passionate that they are all fraud.
You are using the word fact , you seem to be 100% positive that all mediums and psychics are fake. Now this being a sceptic forum and we are talking about proof. I just wanted to hear the proof that you have that makes you 100% certain that psychics are fake. I am not talking about beliefs here i am talking about fact. If you dont have any facts thats no problem , just say you dont believe you they can do this but i cannot back this claim up .

Dave! · 22-03-2011 08:31PM

Don't be silly, you know full well that nobody can "know for certain" that psychics are all fake, nor can you "know for certain" that unicorns don't exist, or that there isn't a tiny teapot floating around in space somewhere.

What we can say is that there are plenty of compelling reasons to believe that psychics are fake, and no hard evidence to suggest that they can legitimately communicate with the dead.

Do you disagree with any of that?

And if your retort is going to again point out that we can't know for sure, and that it's "just a belief", then you have to address what I said above: can you know for sure that there is no such thing as unicorns?

MrJonDonnis · 22-03-2011 08:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is why cant a medium prove their ability. Your posts caught my eye merely because you seem to be so passionate that they are all fraud.

I know this question was not directed at me, but I would like to answer.

All mediums are not frauds, but all mediums are fakes.
Many mediums are deluded.

The only fact that exists here is that mediumship is an impossibility.

You are using the word fact , you seem to be 100% positive that all mediums and psychics are fake.

I am yes, because such claims are impossible. Just because a lot of people make a claim, or that a lot of people believe in a claim, that doesn't mean it is real or even a possibility

Now this being a sceptic forum and we are talking about proof. I just wanted to hear the proof that you have that makes you 100% certain that psychics are fake. I am not talking about beliefs here i am talking about fact. If you dont have any facts thats no problem , just say you dont believe you they can do this but i cannot back this claim up .

Skeptics need to stop pussyfooting around, stop trying to keep everyone happy, and stop trying to act all open to keep the believers happy.

Its time skeptics and skepticism in general stopped pandering to the deluded and start saying it how it is.

Mediumship is impossible, if it was possible it would have been proven long ago, but everything we know about life and death, physics and biology tell us it is impossible.

MrJonDonnis · 22-03-2011 08:41PM

Dave! wrote: »

Don't be silly, you know full well that nobody can "know for certain" that psychics are all fake, nor can you "know for certain" that unicorns don't exist, or that there isn't a tiny teapot floating around in space somewhere.

And if your retort is going to again point out that we can't know for sure, and that it's "just a belief", then you have to address what I said above: can you know for sure that there is no such thing as unicorns?

I would argue that Unicorns are real as any creature with a single horn is a unicorn
http://www.worldsstrangest.com/mental-floss/the-truth-behind-real-life-unicorns/

The problem with people who refuse to accept that mediumship is impossible is that they want to be perceived as "open minded"

I wonder would these same people accept that it is possible that an invisible loch ness monster just flew past my window smoking a cigar and humming the tune to The A Team.

For this is as ridiculous as the idea of mediumship.
Again just because thousands believe in something that doesn't make it real, nor does it make it possible

Dave! · 22-03-2011 09:04PM

MrJonDonnis wrote: »

I would argue that Unicorns are real as any creature with a single horn is a unicorn
http://www.worldsstrangest.com/mental-floss/the-truth-behind-real-life-unicorns/

The problem with people who refuse to accept that mediumship is impossible is that they want to be perceived as "open minded"

I wonder would these same people accept that it is possible that an invisible loch ness monster just flew past my window smoking a cigar and humming the tune to The A Team.

For this is as ridiculous as the idea of mediumship.
Again just because thousands believe in something that doesn't make it real, nor does it make it possible

Indeed

I tend to steer clear of "impossible" because then it leads to "prove it". Better off just pointing out, as you just have, that we have no good evidence for the claim, and plenty of reasons to think it's false, which in most cases is as close as you can reasonably get to showing that a claim is untrue. Then point out that they don't apply the same logic to other outlandish claims, like Russell's teapot, flying spaghetti monster, etc.

I've been called "closed-minded" so many times at this stage... I've probably researched psychics/mediums about 20 times as thoroughly as my friends, yet I'm considered closed-minded because I don't find the evidence compelling.

22-03-2011 09:27PM

MrJonDonnis wrote: »

Skeptics need to stop pussyfooting around, stop trying to keep everyone happy, and stop trying to act all open to keep the believers happy.

I am neither a believer or non believer. If i was to believe i would have to see the facts and investigate myself. If i were to investigate this properly we are looking at years , probably not even my life time. Lets face it , doing it for a few years is just a wast of time .

With regards to stop pussyfooting around, I think skeptics need to get off their ass and stop repeating what they have read and actually do something for them selves.

Dave! · 22-03-2011 09:38PM

"I am neither a believer or non believer"

Pull the other one chief

You're a total believer, you just can't intelligently defend those beliefs like some people can, so you resort to childish low-level trolling and silly hit and run questions.

22-03-2011 09:38PM

Dave! wrote: »

Indeed

I tend to steer clear of "impossible" because then it leads to "prove it".

This is true and the thread just like this one turns into one person trying to one up the other person .

Here is the interesting thing about the forums ...

Believer " psychics and mediums can communicate with the dead predict the future, yadda yadda yadda"

Me " Can you prove this ? "

Believer " well i can give you examples but no i cannot categorically prove it"

Skeptic " psychics and mediums cannot communicate with the dead or do any of the other stuff that they claim"

Me " Can you prove this? "

Skeptic Well i can give you examples but no i cannot categorically prove it"

So at the end of the day its all about belief's and really thats what the forums should be called. Non believers and believers .

Dave! · 22-03-2011 09:45PM

And as predicted you resorted to the "it's just a belief" argument.

See my earlier post in which I used my psi abilities to pre-empt it:

And if your retort is going to again point out that we can't know for sure, and that it's "just a belief", then you have to address what I said above: can you know for sure that there is no such thing as unicorns?

Well can you? What's your position on invisible pink elephants? Are they real?

22-03-2011 10:02PM

Dave! wrote: »

And as predicted you resorted to the "it's just a belief" argument.

See my earlier post in which I used my psi abilities to pre-empt it:

Well can you? What's your position on invisible pink elephants? Are they real?

Its not an argument. I am saying it as i am seeing it . I havnt seen any from either side.

My position on this invisible pink elephant. I dont know, does it claim to be psychic ?

Dave! · 22-03-2011 10:13PM

Well this has been fun... Talk again soon

MrStuffins · 22-03-2011 10:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is why cant a medium prove their ability. Your posts caught my eye merely because you seem to be so passionate that they are all fraud.
You are using the word fact , you seem to be 100% positive that all mediums and psychics are fake. Now this being a sceptic forum and we are talking about proof. I just wanted to hear the proof that you have that makes you 100% certain that psychics are fake. I am not talking about beliefs here i am talking about fact. If you dont have any facts thats no problem , just say you dont believe you they can do this but i cannot back this claim up .

It's not about belief. it's not about what "facts" I have or have not.

At the end of the day, it's not up to me to prove psychics wrong, it's up to them to prove themselves right. after all, they are the ones with the ridiculous claims here.

If I was to tell you that I have a mansion made entirely of cheese on Jupiter, you wouldn't believe me. If you humoured me, you might ask me to prove it right?

Well, simply because I say "Well, you can't prove that I don't" doesn't give my claims any more substance. Just like with psychics. Just because I can't PROVE (but I could certainly indicate) that mediums can't speak to the dead, it doesn't make their claims any more valid until they prove once and for all that they are tellng the truth.

The default position with mediums is they're talking sh*t, not that they're telling the truth until proven otherwise :rolleyes:

22-03-2011 11:18PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

If I was to tell you that I have a mansion made entirely of cheese on Jupiter, you wouldn't believe me. If you humoured me, you might ask me to prove it right?

I would say thats great and wouldn't loose any sleep out of it .

Other people will say you are mad and then start a community were they will release magazines and podcasts conferences etc .. were they will discuss the fact that you do not have a house made of cheese because you have no evidence.
Other people will then come along and will actually do the math on how cheese wouldn't survive on Jupiter because the mass on the planet is too great. James Randi will start a new challenge . If anybody can actually churn butter into cheese, then off the back of that will write 7 books because his magic career is not taking off.

The you will have the house of cheese believers, but thats a whole other story.

MrStuffins · 22-03-2011 11:24PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I would say thats great and wouldn't loose any sleep out of it .

Other people will say you are mad and then start a community were they will release magazines and podcasts conferences etc .. were they will discuss the fact that you do not have a house made of cheese because you have no evidence.
Other people will then come along and will actually do the math on how cheese wouldn't survive on Jupiter because the mass on the planet is too great. James Randi will start a new challenge . If anybody can actually churn butter into cheese, then off the back of that will write 7 books because his magic career is not taking off.

The you will have the house of cheese believers, but thats a whole other story.

Great. And do you know what I would do in this case? I would step forward and prove it.

Simples!

22-03-2011 11:33PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

Great. And do you know what I would do in this case? I would step forward and prove it.

Simples!

Yeah but who would you prove it? You have to remember People in this "community" who do not believe you, are really not willing to travel and to be honest why should you prove it to them as they dont believe you in the first place. Why would you justify that ?

MrStuffins · 22-03-2011 11:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah but who would you prove it? You have to remember People in this "community" who do not believe you, are really not willing to travel and to be honest why should you prove it to them as they dont believe you in the first place. Why would you justify that ?

What are you talking about? Why would they not be willing to travel? Of course they're willing to travel.

In fact, you already said that James Randi has put forward a challenge. I will prove it to the James Randi Foundation.

I have made a wild claim, i've been asked to prove it so i'll do so. It's very simple!

Dave! · 23-03-2011 12:06AM

This is getting pathetic at this stage Dray... Do you have anything substantive to contribute to this... or, well, any... discussion?

23-03-2011 12:21AM

You still here Dave , thought you left 5 posts ago .

OK so back to this and what i was saying before , why would you want to test for somebody or an organisation who has been calling you a lier or a fraud ?

Dave! · 23-03-2011 12:26AM

Not all skeptics call psychics liars or frauds. There are plenty out there that take a more nuanced perspective, and very consciously don't call them frauds.

Of course it depends on the psychic too. I'd probably call Sylvia Browne a fraud/liar, but some people genuinely think that they're communicating with the dead, and are not conscious of the fact that they're just using cold reading techniques.

So to answer your question: I'd actually do some research and ask one of the more respectable organisations to design a test, rather than generalise all skeptics.

To be more relevant, your question should probably be: why would I want to be tested by someone who does not believe me?

Yeah I'm still here, I can't resist I'm afraid

MrJonDonnis · 23-03-2011 12:32AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I am neither a believer or non believer. If i was to believe i would have to see the facts and investigate myself. If i were to investigate this properly we are looking at years , probably not even my life time. Lets face it , doing it for a few years is just a wast of time .

With regards to stop pussyfooting around, I think skeptics need to get off their ass and stop repeating what they have read and actually do something for them selves.

I totally agree, Skeptics do need to get off their arses and stop repeating what people like me say.

I hate armchair skepticism, I think it is detrimental to the understanding of belief.

I have investigated over a 1000 mediums, more than anyone else I know of.
I have received over 200 readings, I have come face to face and investigated pretty much every mediumship claim.

But not everyone is as proactive as me

Dave! · 23-03-2011 01:25AM

What did you learn from the second 100 readings that you didn't know from the first 100?

Your cold reading abilities must be pretty sharp at this stage.

Why can't a medium PROVE the ability exists?

Comments