Is sex with a 3rd world prostitute a form of rape?

CDfm · 21-03-2011 02:43PM

seenitall wrote: »

I, however, do not see the link between these questions of yours and my objections to Permabear quote of "you can claim with some justification that many such women have effectively been forced into sex against their will—but it does not make their husbands rapists"

Thanks seenitall - I was not trying to link the two more butt in with a point on culture etc.

The fact that this is sanctioned by their culture and its laws does not make these experiences any less harrowing on them, and it does not make them any more willing to have sex with men they had no hand in choosing for themselves.

I often find cultural beliefs and wants and needs a difficult subject myself - especially when you have cultures which may be based on class or caste systems.

The issue that I have been refering to all along, therefore, has nothing to do with people not wanting what I want for them, and a lot to do with me wanting people to be allowed to make their own choices, and considering it a moral wrong that they are not allowed to. With state-sanctioned marital rape being the epitome of that misogynistic "morality", "culture", religion... Tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

I spent some time in the middle east and I have a different view to you. This is their world view and the women in society are as culpable as the men.

I am often shocked at the lack of guilt shown by foreign women in our society who put their children or female relatives in the way of arranged marriages, kidnapping, circumcision & honour killings and believe they are not treated harshly enough by our authorities. I have no sympathy and I would lock anyone involved in those activities irrespective of gender up and throw away the key.

I do not think it is simply a gender issue.

seenitall · 21-03-2011 03:23PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Neither one, unfortunately. One is guilty of coersion (which should -when it is not - certainly be seen as tountamount to rape in civilised law), and the other one is guilty of dubious moral behaviour at worst in choosing his location of "entertainment" (if he didn't know that the woman is under coersion). If he does know or suspect it, then it is rape.

The fact that the physical perpetrator and the enforcer may not be the same person, again doesn't take away from the fact that the victim has been forced into intercourse against their will. Being forced into intercourse against one's will is usually called rape. In this case it is called coersion, rape by another name IMO. Rape by proxy.

seenitall · 21-03-2011 03:37PM

CDfm wrote: »

Thanks seenitall - I was not trying to link the two more butt in with a point on culture etc.

I often find cultural beliefs and wants and needs a difficult subject myself - especially when you have cultures which may be based on class or caste systems.

I spent some time in the middle east and I have a different view to you. This is their world view and the women in society are as culpable as the men.

I am often shocked at the lack of guilt shown by foreign women in our society who put their children or female relatives in the way of arranged marriages, kidnapping, circumcision & honour killings and believe they are not treated harshly enough by our authorities. I have no sympathy and I would lock anyone involved in those activities irrespective of gender up and throw away the key.

I do not think it is simply a gender issue.

Both men and women are perpetrators ("culpable") of acts of violence, psychological abuse, discrimination and in fact any other vile thing you care to mention in life. I never said anything different. The fact is, though, that the kind of thing that goes on in Sharia Law and similar is disproportionately (and hugely) weighted in men's favour over women and to women's detriment in all aspects of life, and particularly so in domestic and sexual context. What does it matter that women are also willingly culpable of propagating these injustices, really?

Permabear · 21-03-2011 03:39PM

This post has been deleted.

seenitall · 21-03-2011 03:59PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You are right, Permabear. I looked up the definition of rape in Oxford Advanced:

1 [uncountable, countable] the crime of forcing somebody to have sex with you, especially using violence (my bolding)

I accept that there is no such thing as "rape by proxy", it was an emotive term for me to use (as indicated by "IMO", I would have thought).

In view of the dictionary definition given above, let me rephrase my earlier post:

"I frankly find it quite scary how someone brought up in a civilised first world country cannot seem to grasp that the name of the act of forcing someone into sexual intercourse against their will/without their consent with the enforcer themselves is rape, irrespective of circumstances ("married", gang-banged, enslaved)." (I am leaving out the pimps this time round!

)

SugarHigh · 21-03-2011 04:04PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

If someone offers to sell you something from the back of a van and it turns out to be stolen you will get done for buying stolen goods. It doesn't matter if you thought some guy operating from the back of a van was a legitimate business.

If you buy from a proper shop like argos and the goods turn out to be stolen I don't think you would be charged. If you are visiting brothels in flats or even shanty huts that are clearly being run illegally then you can no longer plead ignorance. If you visit a regulated brothel in Amsterdam you would have a case to plead ignorance.

CDfm · 21-03-2011 04:08PM

seenitall wrote: »

What does it matter that women are also willingly culpable of propagating these injustices, really?

The thing that puts me off of what you say is when you say misogyny.and I so hate that word.

In a utopian world we would not deal with these things. Sharia law comes out of the desert and may have been appropriate to nomadic life.

It is difficult to compare our system with a class and caste system or where you have clientism based on tribal, feudal or religious ties.

I agree with a lot of what you say on the value system but I think analysing it along western gender political lines is far too simplistic.

The family unit as the basis of their society has real value on the distribution of resourses especially in a peasant society. Even in Saudi you have cave dwellers.

We live in a democracy -whereas we do not. The women at the top of the pole in a caste or tribal system would not swap places with those at the bottom.

I think their culture is a bit more "matriarchal" then you make out.

RighteousDude · 21-03-2011 04:16PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

If someone has no other choice but become a prostitute to survive then are they still able to give consent since they are not in a position to say no. If they don't really have choice to say no surely this would be the same as rape just in the same way we don't believe someone under the age of consent is capable of saying no.

I'm not against prostitution when the women actually has a choice but this does strike me as basically taking advantage of someone. Yet I've heard many men openly talk about having sex with prostitutes in Thailand and no one seems appalled.

For the record, a lot of women in thailand will seduce you while you're partying/drunk at a nightclub. Often the john will have been given no indication that this is a business encounter until they are hit up for a bill in the morning.

CDfm · 21-03-2011 04:43PM

RighteousDude wrote: »

For the record, a lot of women in thailand will seduce you while you're partying/drunk at a nightclub. Often the john will have been given no indication that this is a business encounter until they are hit up for a bill in the morning.

An ex colleague of mine got that in Cyprus and was beaten up for payment when leaving a club.

Cyprus is in the EU and the women involved are equally involved in organised crime.

I wonder how much of trafficking and prostitution is organised by women as the assumption here seems to be that it is organised by men exploiting women.

seenitall · 21-03-2011 04:52PM

CDfm wrote: »

The thing that puts me off of what you say is when you say misogyny.and I so hate that word.

In a utopian world we would not deal with these things. Sharia law comes out of the desert and may have been appropriate to nomadic life.

It is difficult to compare our system with a class and caste system or where you have clientism based on tribal, feudal or religious ties.

I agree with a lot of what you say on the value system but I think analysing it along western gender political lines is far too simplistic.

The family unit as the basis of their society has real value on the distribution of resourses especially in a peasant society. Even in Saudi you have cave dwellers.

We live in a democracy -whereas we do not. The women at the top of the pole in a caste or tribal system would not swap places with those at the bottom.

I think their culture is a bit more "matriarchal" then you make out.

I am sorry to hear you hate the word "mysogyny", CDfm. However, the cultures/societies in which the members of one gender (women) are being bartered, bought, $old, raped within or without wedlock with impunity, denied their parental or property rights and other numerou$ right$ as individuals and ba$ically treated like chattel by virtue of being women, are misogynistic societies in the truest sense.

(My "s" key is a bit fecked, sorry

- sometimes work$ and sometime$ doe$n't!!)

Mr. Loverman · 21-03-2011 06:29PM

It seems there are two groups of people here.

The first are people whose opinions are based on emotion, and the second are people whose opinions are based on logic and reason.

No amount of logic and reason will make an emotional person change their mind. You have to communicate with them on an emotional level, unfortunately.

In other words, you are wasting your time.

seenitall · 21-03-2011 07:28PM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

It seems there are two groups of people here.

The first are people whose opinions are based on emotion, and the second are people whose opinions are based on logic and reason.

No amount of logic and reason will make an emotional person change their mind. You have to communicate with them on an emotional level, unfortunately.

In other words, you are wasting your time.

If the world was run on logic and reason solely, Mr. Loverman, rather than a good mixture of the above and compassion toward weaker people and condemning abuse of force and coercion on others, people would be robots and it would certainly be a world I wouldn't like to live in any more than I like to live in the current one, as imperfect as it is.

CDfm · 21-03-2011 07:32PM

seenitall wrote: »

I am sorry to hear you hate the word "mysogyny", CDfm. However, the cultures/societies in which the members of one gender (women) are being bartered, bought, $old, raped within or without wedlock with impunity, denied their parental or property rights and other numerou$ right$ as individuals and ba$ically treated like chattel by virtue of being women, are misogynistic societies in the truest sense.

(My "s" key is a bit fecked, sorry - sometimes work$ and sometime$ doe$n't!!)

Ouch.

It is often used to mysrepresent and mysapportion blame along gender lines and mysguide and myslead by gender theorists who myopically mysattribute social and cultural phenomena solely to gender.

Mr. Loverman · 21-03-2011 07:47PM

seenitall wrote: »

If the world was run on logic and reason solely, Mr. Loverman, rather than a good mixture of the above and compassion toward weaker people and condemning abuse of force and coercion on others, people would be robots and it would certainly be a world I wouldn't like to live in any more than I like to live in the current one, as imperfect as it is.

The problem is when emotions overpower reason.

Emme · 21-03-2011 09:19PM

Is sex with a 3rd world prostitute a form of rape?

Yes, particularly if the prostituted individual is under the legal age of consent that would apply in the buyer's home country. In many cases 3rd world prostitutes are subjected to sexual acts which the buyer may not be able to get in brothels or consensual acts in their home country. They are at a high risk of disease.

Whatever about rape, sex with a 3rd world prostitute is exploitation of the worst kind, akin to slavery.

CDfm · 21-03-2011 10:13PM

The numbers of Sex Tourists is fairly large

Thailand 100,000 female & 30,000 male

What is the size of the "market"

The Female Sex Tourist

Call it hypocrisy: How the Bangkok Post dropped the Nite Owl a few years ago, but enjoys good business with classifieds such as “Barbar – Fetish Experience,” “V.I.P. Models – Business Men Choice” – or “Body Club – Oil Massage by Men.”

The Study in Thailand said there was a lot of demand from the Thai female elite.

Massage by men. Not only for men. There’s quite a trade in town of male prostitutes offering their services to female clients.
Talk about it with associate professor Nither Tinnakul of Chulalongkorn’s Department of Sociology. He did a study about this newer escort culture. Puts the number of female prostitutes in Thailand at 100,000. The number of male prostitutes at a not less staggering 30,000.

Professor Tinnakul’s project was mainly aimed at new escort services that are importing hundreds of prospective black gigolos – “forungs” – from Jamaica and Africa to Thailand to satisfy the surge in the demand for these services among the Thai female elite.

You really dont get many studies done in male prostitution.

CDfm · 23-03-2011 01:17AM

I didn't mean to drag the debate if topic into a men vs women thing -more add to it and see whether there were gaps in the definitions here.

Taboo topics went out supposedly with the Lady Chatterly's Lover obsenity trial where arguably the real reason for its banning was because of the class of the characters as opposed to the sexual descriptions.

We should be able to add new definitions on here too -not to be controvercial but to reflect real life.

Now , there is a friend of my ma who went on some really dodgy holidays.

So there are other angle's to it too about why people travel & buy sex.

Is sex with a 3rd world prostitute a form of rape?

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