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Was it morally right for Britain, Canada, France and the USA to airstrike Libya?

  • 20-03-2011 11:39PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭


    Simple question, I'm looking to see what you think.

    As for me this is the greatest challenge to my belief in pacifism for a long time. I'm torn. I particularly don't want to see another war in the Middle East right now.

    Was it morally right for US / UK / Canada / France to airstrike Libya? 366 votes

    Yes
    0%
    No
    71%
    regiVenomRasTaazezilgurramokjhegartyBeruthielLudoPauljRabiesomahaidZillahpassivebizmarkChazThe Brigadierx in the citySeiferjimmycrackcormPonster 262 votes
    Sega Mega Drive
    28%
    Dont be at yourselfPete M.tuxyCuauhtemocthe_barfly1beansDravokivichmikemacwalshbdelta_bravocelticbestchapod21Duiskefrank9901Morlarneilk32ninjasurfer1Dr. Baltarshockwavehowamidifferent 104 votes


«13456717

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,598 ✭✭✭positron


    No
    Yes. And it's not airstriking entire Libya as you put it. It's taking out Gaddafi's forces who are shelling civilians in Bangazi and reducing his power to hurt civilians. That's all there is

    (PS: okay, there might be more to it, but I don't know)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Sega Mega Drive
    I'm torn too.
    On the one hand, I think that somebody needed to step in and stand up for the innocent civilians. But isn't that the UNs' job?
    Also - there are plenty of other countries who could do with being saved from civil war and dictatorships.
    But they don't have 'black gold', so the armies of the world aren't taking much notice...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    No
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Simple question, I'm looking to see what you think.

    As for me this is the greatest challenge to my belief in pacifism for a long time. I'm torn. I particularly don't want to see another war in the Middle East right now.

    Libya is in North Africa, the Libyan people have begun an uprising for change, Gaddaffi slaughters his own people so I do believe that the allies are both justified and right to go to war against him.

    Some of the naysayers here would rather if Europe stayed dumb and let Hitler take over. Freedom isn't free and Gadaffi is a tyrant and hopefully they will get some bunkerbusters to blow him to smithereens.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    positron wrote: »
    Yes. And it's not airstriking entire Libya as you put it. It's taking out Gaddafi's forces who are shelling civilians in Bangazi and reducing his power to hurt civilians. That's all there is

    (PS: okay, there might be more to it, but I don't know)

    I think it is hypocritical given that troops from Saudi Arabia / Qatar and UAE are currently in Bahrain suppressing protest.

    If the coalition were genuinely consistent they would have advocated airstrikes here also. They are still more interested in keeping their main oil partners I would suspect.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    I'm torn too, on the one hand I don't give a flying fk, on the other I don't want the yanks getting their grubby hands on another country.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    Sega Mega Drive
    None of this had a thing to do with the US, Canada or France. Overall the death toll was very small, this was an uprising that got in the way of some oil and nothing more. This airstrike will destroy Libya and they will end up with yet another country ****ed up by some big countries deciding to stick their nose where it didn't belong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No
    RichieC wrote: »
    I'm torn too, on the one hand I don't give a flying fk, on the other I don't want the yanks getting their grubby hands on another country.
    Yes. Thats exactly what we want. You got us

    :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    No
    if they have all those bombs, they've got to use them on someone


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Sega Mega Drive
    I agree with the above post.
    It's quite obvious that there's more to these strikes than just saving civilians from Gadaffi.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Overheal wrote: »
    Yes. Thats exactly what we want. You got us

    :rolleyes:

    lol, you know more about the back room dealings because why? you live in America?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Sega Mega Drive
    Well I'd certainly hope that an American citizen would know more about US foreign policy than your average Irish person :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Libya is in North Africa, the Libyan people have begun an uprising for change, Gaddaffi slaughters his own people so I do believe that the allies are both justified and right to go to war against him.

    It is included in some definitions of the Middle East but meh.

    Some countries in the UN such as Venezuela suggested that it could be resolved better diplomatically.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Well I'd certainly hope that an American citizen would know more about US foreign policy than your average Irish person :)

    He knows the same, what can be read on the internet or the papers, they don't have secret American news that only they can read.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭TheGodBen


    No
    On the one hand, I think that somebody needed to step in and stand up for the innocent civilians. But isn't that the UNs' job?
    You do realise that the UN doesn't have an army, right? All the UN could do is request member nations to intervene to protect civilians, which they did in resolution 1973, explicitly saying that they can use "all necessary measures". The coalition are now acting on the behalf of the UN.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    None of this had a thing to do with the US, Canada or France.

    They were the main advocates of this along with Britain, of course it has to do with them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 666 ✭✭✭pigeonbutler


    No
    Well I'd certainly hope that an American citizen would know more about US foreign policy than your average Irish person :)

    Not generally the case in my experience!!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,098 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    No
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It is included in some definitions of the Middle East but meh.

    Some countries in the UN such as Venezuela suggested that it could be resolved better diplomatically.

    The time for talking had come and passed there is somethings that can be only resolved through action. Venezuela should count itself lucky if doesn't find itself on the receiving end of Military action at some point in the future also. GWB drew up invasion plans for the country during his tenure IIRC.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 274 ✭✭dabestman1


    if libya didnt have oil, this wouldnt have happened, wonder will they bomb burma, on another note they wont bomb bahrain or saudi arabia because they like their dictators.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,598 ✭✭✭positron


    No
    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think it is hypocritical given that troops from Saudi Arabia / Qatar and UAE are currently in Bahrain suppressing protest.

    If the coalition were genuinely consistent they would have advocated airstrikes here also. They are still more interested in keeping their main oil partners I would suspect.

    Please don't tell me you didn't notice the difference in scale of the situation between Libya and rest of the countries? Saudi, UAE etc are what currently similar to what happenend in Egypt, it's awful and no doubt that the people should be given the choice to reform, but they are getting repression. However, there's a huge difference between that, to Gaddafi going on radio and tv making his intentions clear that he will conduct house-to-house searches in Bengazi and kill every single rebel - aka - anyone they wish - aka - ethnic cleansing. Not only that, he has the history of doing such insane things too. Already there's many 100s of thousands attempting to flee the situation, so it's a crisis in much larger scale than that of UAE / Yemen etc.

    Ideally UN should be there everywhere protecting civilians, but, we don't live in an ideal world now, do we?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Sega Mega Drive
    RichieC wrote: »
    He knows the same, what can be read on the internet or the papers, they don't have secret American news that only they can read.

    What I meant was that as a US citizen, I'd presume that he'd take more of an interest in US foreign policy than an Irish citizen


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  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Looking at the big picture, morals don't come into it!
    Maintaining a supply of oil does, if Libya wasn't an oil exporter, there would be little incentive for the west to go in, but they do and there is a huge incentintive to go in and stabalise the country as soon as possible so the oil supply will resume.

    There was quite a delay before anything was done, maybe the governments thought that Gadaffi would rapidly crush the rebellion and continue as before, or the rebels would get a quick victory. Either way is good for the west.

    It should be remembered that food prices are directly related to oil prices and as the prices of both continue to rapidly rise, food & fuel riots are likely just about anywhere on the planet.

    Restoring stability and stabalising oil supply and cost is what this is about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭Hyperbullet


    Sega Mega Drive
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It is included in some definitions of the Middle East but meh.

    Some countries in the UN such as Venezuela suggested that it could be resolved better diplomatically.


    Bit rich coming from Venezuela, considering it isn't the most politically sound country either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Stinicker wrote: »
    The time for talking had come and passed there is somethings that can be only resolved through action. Venezuela should count itself lucky if doesn't find itself on the receiving end of Military action at some point in the future also. GWB drew up invasion plans for the country during his tenure IIRC.

    Had it though? I hadn't heard of any means of initiating negotiations before airstrikes. They passed the resolution and then there was a "ceasefire" that the Libyans didn't honour. The first move should have been negotiations, maybe?

    As for Bush, could you provide a link where you got that from?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    I'm torn too.
    On the one hand, I think that somebody needed to step in and stand up for the innocent civilians. But isn't that the UNs' job?

    Does the UN have an airforce ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Sega Mega Drive
    TheGodBen wrote: »
    You do realise that the UN doesn't have an army, right? All the UN could do is request member nations to intervene to protect civilians, which they did in resolution 1973, explicitly saying that they can use "all necessary measures". The coalition are now acting on the behalf of the UN.

    Yes I do. I don't believe that the coalition are acting on behalf of the UN. Who's pulling the strings?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61,079 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Sega Mega Drive
    I think it is obscene that the French, UK and U.S. are bombing this country.
    It's nothing but games and target practice to them. They couldn't give a flying fcuk about Libyan people. The Colonel obviously has supporters; Libya is a sovereign country, an independent country, and just because the yanks and brits don't agree with Gadaffi ruling, what ****ing right does that give them to attack the country. Pure terrorism.

    So, what would happen if several thousand Irish people protested against the government here and demanded change thru force; would that be ok for the westerners to bomb and attack?

    Same in Palestine. Hamas rule there because Hamas have support. That is their choice, their right
    and their people. The Brits and U.S need to stop ****ing interfering with other countries rulers and rulings.
    These countries will sort their problems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I'm torn too.
    On the one hand, I think that somebody needed to step in and stand up for the innocent civilians. But isn't that the UNs' job?

    Perhaps, but I'm very very wary about this considering that Arab, Russian and Chinese support is waning already.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    Sega Mega Drive
    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Does the UN have an airforce ?

    I didn't mean 'stand up for civilians' in an agressive way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No
    RichieC wrote: »
    He knows the same, what can be read on the internet or the papers, they don't have secret American news that only they can read.
    I do however have American news that for the most part only Americans bother to read and view. We have no interest in deploying ground forces or occupying the county in any form. Admiral Mullen at the very least has even said the mission is only to protect the rebel citizens by any means necessary under the UN resolution. Some generals though seem to believe the end game should be Ghadaffi out of there, but they are unsure of how that will be accomplished, it would have to be through the acts of the rebel people, which with the removal of Ghadaffi's tanks and planes will be a much less of a one-ended slaughter. Ghaddafi cannot simply be bombed as a) it's not the mission or approved by the resolution and b) he's using innocent bystanders as his entourage, forming a human shield.

    Financially there's little or nothing to gain from this except a thankful Libyan people who may repay the favor when they restore the country. As it is though I wager we've already burned through $1,000,000,000.00+ since the start of operations the other day, half of that cost in Tomahawk cruise missiles alone.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 274 ✭✭dabestman1


    Bit rich coming from Venezuela, considering it isn't the most politically sound country either.
    good to note that america only recognises decomcracy when it suits them, Chavez is elected. None of these middle east would recognise democracy but that suits america.


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