Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

IS STATE-SUBSIDISING WEALTHY PRIVATE SCHOOLS NOT OUTRAGEOUS?

13»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,144 ✭✭✭Rosita


    edanto wrote: »

    I'm not being a pedant about the word voluntary. You're being obtuse. It's a simple fact that parents voluntarily choose to send their children to fee paying schools or not. Hence the fees are a voluntary contribution towards the budget of the school. No getting away from that. Your example of the girl kicked out doesn't hold up, in that case the parents voluntarily agreed to pay the fees and then didn't, so the school withdrew her place. No-one forced the parents to send the girl to that school.


    You have undermined your own argument in the last sentence and bound yourself up in your own 'cleverness'.

    Not sure if you are being unwittingly obtuse or knowingly mischievous in your abuse of the term 'voluntary contribution' but happily you have clearly clarified the difference between the two in your attempted dismissal of the exmaple of the girl in question. Her parents quickly found out precisely how 'voluntary' the 'contribution' actually was.

    A voluntary contribution is just that - the contribution does not affect the place of a child in a school. (If you worked in a school you would not dare try to argue otherwise)

    Fee-paying (which you have unilaterally and quite incorrectly tried to redefine as a voluntary contribution) is not voluntary in the sense that most rational people would interpret the term. You are paying for a service and if you don't pay you don't receive it - it is a business transaction. Same as making a 'voluntary contribution' for a loaf of bread in the local shop - it's not like you can take the item and decide whether you want to pay or not. You are not forced to take the bread but you are forced to pay should you decide to do so.

    I presume if you were not in debating soc mode you would readily acknowledge the absurdity of the fudge you are attempting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    OK - I'm sorry for conflating fees and a voluntary contribution. My main point, as you know, is that the decision to send your children to a private school or not is a voluntary decision.

    I've said that your system is unjust, can you please defend your proposal to withdraw all state funding from schools where parents pay fees, and show how it is equitable?

    Also, can you answer my direct and repeated question about the contribution point at which you would withdraw state funding for schools?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭vallo


    doc_17 wrote: »
    One students private fee would buy a hell of a lot of yet tubes, HCL, Manganese Dioxide etc. Just on the ICT thing.....out school raised the money to kit out our own computer room and put data projectors and laptops in each room. There wasn't much helpmfrom the state for us two years ago when we did it.

    How sophisticated do desktop pcs need to be? Moored law doesn't apply ....I wasn't aware we were required to double our computer speed every two years...so no... It doesn't apply.
    Of course it applies. ICT equipment has to be updated regularly - you think schools are all running WindowsNT and that computers in schools never get damaged or are subjected to general wear and tear?
    doc_17 wrote: »
    We are subsidising rich people to send their kids to palaces with other rich kids, swimming pools...paid for rugby and basketball coaches etc..
    Anyone I know in fee-paying schools pays extra for those things. And the non-fee-paying school my kids go to has a great pool.
    doc_17 wrote: »
    Our school recently lost an all Ireland final against a private fee paying school and their school had a paid coach training them and we had a teacher doing the same job as an add on to his day job.
    Maybe we are getting to the nub of your irrationality. If say, there was parent in your school who was a qualified sports instructor and volunteered to be a full time coach for your school's team, would that be unfair on other schools you were competing against?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,144 ✭✭✭Rosita


    edanto wrote: »

    OK - I'm sorry for conflating fees and a voluntary contribution. My main point, as you know, is that the decision to send your children to a private school or not is a voluntary decision.

    If this is your main point then you are missing the core issue of the discussion which is to do with the appropriateness of the state paying staff costs for private enterprise.

    It is a voluntary decision to send your children to any particular school - private or public. Why are you trying to make a distinction? Nobody has questioned this at all.

    What is not voluntary is the question of fee-paying in private schools should you decide to send your children there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    I'm out.

    /unsubscribe


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,971 ✭✭✭doc_17


    vallo wrote: »

    Maybe we are getting to the nub of your irrationality. If say, there was parent in your school who was a qualified sports instructor and volunteered to be a full time coach for your school's team, would that be unfair on other schools you were competing against?

    I'd hardly call it irrationality when someone holds the belief that the state should not be involved in funding private education.

    As regards the hypothetical you just raised.....that leaves it down to chance ie there may or may not be someone available...whereas for the prvate schools they can have all the best coahes and facilities because they dont have to pay for their teachers....

    Someone here mentioned that their non fee paying school had a pool..that's a pretty rare thing!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,005 ✭✭✭✭Toto Wolfcastle


    doc_17 wrote: »
    Someone here mentioned that their non fee paying school had a pool..that's a pretty rare thing!!!!

    Very rare. I went to a non-fee paying school with a pool and everyone I mentioned it to was hugely surprised.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,971 ✭✭✭doc_17


    edanto wrote: »
    . If you can't afford it, you can apply for a scholarship and some of the people at the fee paying school I was at were on those and I only found out much later in life and frankly it wasn't a big deal.



    How many of those scholarships go to disruptive students? Travellers? Weaker students? It's well accepted that private fee paying schools don't have their fair share from these demographics


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,767 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    doc_17 wrote: »
    How many of those scholarships go to disruptive students? Travellers? Weaker students? It's well accepted that private fee paying schools don't have their fair share from these demographics

    That is one of the reasons why people choose to send their children to fee paying schools. A scholarship implies someone with exceptional skills who will benefit from the presumed better education. This may or may not be 'right' but maybe we should not allow people to spend their money on expensive hotels that poor people cannot access?

    Would someone please explain why parents who have paid taxes should not have the same entitlement as everyone else to have basic education paid for for their children?

    And why these same parents should not pay EXTRA, if they choose, towards their childrens' education to get the environment they prefer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,144 ✭✭✭Rosita


    looksee wrote: »
    That is one of the reasons why people choose to send their children to fee paying schools. A scholarship implies someone with exceptional skills who will benefit from the presumed better education. This may or may not be 'right' but maybe we should not allow people to spend their money on expensive hotels that poor people cannot access?

    Would someone please explain why parents who have paid taxes should not have the same entitlement as everyone else to have basic education paid for for their children?

    And why these same parents should not pay EXTRA, if they choose, towards their childrens' education to get the environment they prefer?


    That is one of the reasons why people choose to send their children to fee paying schools. A scholarship implies someone with exceptional skills who will benefit from the presumed better education. This may or may not be 'right' but maybe we should not allow people to spend their money on expensive hotels that poor people cannot access?


    Of course we should allow people 'o spend their money on expensive hotels that poor people cannot access'. But presumably we woudl object to a proposal which saw the state funding the staff salaries of such hotels.

    Would someone please explain why parents who have paid taxes should not have the same entitlement as everyone else to have basic education paid for for their children?

    They already do have 'the same entitlement as everyone else to have basic education paid for for their children' - check out the public schools. But private enterprise should not have staff costs paid for by the state. Nobdoy is contesting any parents' right to 'free' education. It has been available for nearly 45 years now.

    And why these same parents should not pay EXTRA, if they choose, towards their childrens' education to get the environment they prefer?

    They should indeed pay extra if that's what they wish for. Nobody is questioning their right to pay extra. In fact my argument is that they are not paying enough and the state should be left out of it.

    The issue here is not the parents or students entitlements but that the ta-payer is not getting the benefit from the provision of private education because the staff salaries still have to be funded - at second-level anyway, at third level private colleges do not need to be propped up by the state.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭implausible


    doc_17 wrote: »
    How many of those scholarships go to disruptive students? Travellers? Weaker students? It's well accepted that private fee paying schools don't have their fair share from these demographics
    looksee wrote: »
    That is one of the reasons why people choose to send their children to fee paying schools. A scholarship implies someone with exceptional skills who will benefit from the presumed better education.

    This may or may not be 'right'

    It's not right.

    The fact that these schools, whose teachers are funded by the Exchequer, do not take in students with a variety of needs means that there is a disproportionate number of these students in certain public schools, perpetuating a cycle of disadvantage, for which the state picks up the tab.


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Pegasusbridge


    deemark wrote: »
    It's not right.

    The fact that these schools, whose teachers are funded by the Exchequer, do not take in students with a variety of needs means that there is a disproportionate number of these students in certain public schools, perpetuating a cycle of disadvantage, for which the state picks up the tab.

    It is just plain wrong to state that fee paying schools do not take in students with a variety of needs. As far as I know schools legally have to provide their admissions policy and as such could be held accountable if they did as you claim. This was something that happened in the past but legal changes have been made to prevent it happening now.
    Schools that break the law should be punished but that is a different debate


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭implausible


    It is just plain wrong to state that fee paying schools do not take in students with a variety of needs. As far as I know schools legally have to provide their admissions policy and as such could be held accountable if they did as you claim. This was something that happened in the past but legal changes have been made to prevent it happening now.
    Schools that break the law should be punished but that is a different debate

    I fully agree with you; schools that break the law should be punished. Unfortunately, many schools have come up with some very creative ways of getting around these admission policies e.g. suggesting that a child's needs will be better met somewhere else or enforcing a siblings only rule.


  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭Jcarroll07


    ALL the goverment is requiered to do is pay the fees of the teachers and nothing else. Like they do in every school.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    It's not outrageous.

    it's simply our government paying a certain amount of money per pupil, every pupil, regardless of school and this pays the salaries of the state-paid teachers in the school.

    Private schools get extra money from fees and donations from past pupils and that sort of thing.

    This money goes to pay for things like an extra subject at senior cycle (this means employing actually privately paid teachers, reducing class sizes down to around 22-24 instead of 28-30 (again by paying more teachers privately, paying for coaches for various extra curricular activities, buses to and from matches on wednesday afternoons, things like that.

    There is also ethos and tradition involved and many of these schools have tradition of sending generation after generation to the school.
    What is so wrong with this?

    I cannot understand the outrage, I really cant.

    The thing that does bother me is how it is advantageous to dublin city pupils attending private schools, most of whom end up in UCD or TCD.
    While attending a private school, generally in South County Dublin, they're parents pay 5-6k a year in school fees.
    Then, when they go third level, they live so close to the chosen alma mater, that they can live at home while there so mum and dad dont have to pay accommodation expenses, whereas John from Mayo goes to school in a "normal" school for 5-6 years, then goes to NUI, Galway and his mum and dad pay 5-6k a year in accommodation/rent expenses.

    So, in essence, I actually blame the rainbow government for bringing in free fees as this allowed this to happen. The private school sector exploded after this.

    Discuss (and or rip apart)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse



    I actually blame the rainbow government for bringing in free fees as this allowed this to happen. The private school sector exploded after this.

    Source please.


Advertisement