Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

gigino · 14-03-2011 01:02AM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Finland with similar prices, but much lower wages for public servants will be more appropriate

+1. That should be the situation here

erictheviking1 · 14-03-2011 01:15AM

Do you realise that the finnish civil service receive cost of living allowance plus age allowance which can add 25/30% to their salaries. Do you actually know anything about the finnish public sector or are you jumping on a populist bandwagon again? Also, public sector there is about 25% of the workforce. Here its about 15%. Please tell me I'm wrong. I look forward to proving it to you

Vizzy · 14-03-2011 01:18AM

gigino wrote: »

I am not online 24/7 but will answer your question now

People at the top should be cut the most. eg Its absurd that our Taoiseach who sang so well at 3 am in Galway + adressed the nation on national radio at breakfast some hours later, earns more than the President of the USA. The likes of Dermot Ahern , ex minister for foreign affairs should not be able to retire with a lump sum of 300k plus and a pension which is double the average industrial wage. Cut that 50%. Lower paid people should be cut only 25%. Public sector pay should not be so much higher than private sector. Of course social welfare, quangos, etc should be cut too.

Numbers to be cut : I agree with the main government party, 30,000

I have compared to other countries,eg Germany, not just the UK. However we share a land border with the UK. Nearly everyone has a friend or relative or old classmate who went to the North or England or Scotland....its a place we are very familiar with. Universities from the north for example have students from both sides of the border, some of whom have traditionally got jobs in the public sector on both sdides of the border. Its easy for people to make comparisons, there are no language barriers etc.

So you want to cut someone on €60,000 by 50% to €30,000
and somebody on €35,000 by 25% to €26,250
They would be better off on the welfare !!.

When you next go to a hospital( hope you don't have to) bring this post with you and be satisfied that you have reduced the numbers but now you will be faced with a longer wait to be treated
or
if you get assaulted you can read this post while you wait for the Gardai to arrive.

Personnally I don't really care what people pay for in other countries or what they are paid.We are living in Ireland and we have what we have whether it is good or bad.
Interestingly though I haven't come across many Finnish people working in the public sector here.
With the salaries being so good you would think that they would be queuing up to join !!

keithcan · 14-03-2011 01:31AM

Not planning on getting into the to and fro of the debates about cost of living and public service pay, but I think part of the cost of a public service is its SIZE. So the following is a quote from the OECD Public Management Review of Ireland 'TOWARDS AN INTEGRATED PUBLIC SERVICE' - P.63. Full Report at http://www.onegov.ie/eng/Publications/Ireland_-_Towards_an_Integrated_Public_Service.pdf

"The public sector workforce, excluding commercial state-sponsored bodies, is relatively low compared with other OECD countries, and significantly less than the level of public employment in Norway, Sweden, France, Finland and Belgium".

Noticeable that they refer to Finland as in Ireland has "significantly less" public employment.

erictheviking1 · 14-03-2011 01:37AM

The Finnish public sector has good employment protection. Holidays are between 25-38 days (Max of 7.5 weeks):eek:
Its family friendly place to work and Union membership is 80%. Higher than here. Pensions are also very good.:)
Probably a bad example gigino:pac::pac:

gigino · 14-03-2011 02:05AM

Their wages are considerably lower. Plus they pay a lot of tax. Half the workforce in this country does not pay income tax. There, even people on low salaries by our standards pay income tax. The numbers of people employed in our public service increased in recent years. Our country is bust, we cannot afford to have one of the highest paid public services in the world. I wish we could, but we cannot.

gigino · 14-03-2011 02:10AM

Vizzy wrote: »

and somebody on €35,000 by 25% to €26,250
They would be better off on the welfare !!.

Welfare should be cut as well. We cannot afford to give your figure of 26250 a year to someone in Dundalk for not working when the average public servant in Newry gets about the same for working (average public sector pay in the UK is only 22 to 23k stg ).

RichardAnd · 14-03-2011 10:04AM

gigino wrote: »

I am not online 24/7 but will answer your question now

People at the top should be cut the most. eg Its absurd that our Taoiseach who sang so well at 3 am in Galway + adressed the nation on national radio at breakfast some hours later, earns more than the President of the USA. The likes of Dermot Ahern , ex minister for foreign affairs should not be able to retire with a lump sum of 300k plus and a pension which is double the average industrial wage. Cut that 50%. Lower paid people should be cut only 25%. Public sector pay should not be so much higher than private sector. Of course social welfare, quangos, etc should be cut too.

Numbers to be cut : I agree with the main government party, 30,000

That taoiseach is no longer in charge and the old story about him getting more than obama is nonsense. The current salary of the taoiseach is, to my knowlege, about 200k euro. Obama gets 400k USD. Now, 400k dollara is about 290k euro so Enda does not get more than the president of the US, not by a long shot.

I believe that, for a brief peroid, the salary of the taoiseach was more than the president of the US but this is no longer the case. The office of the taoiseach should come with a high salary, let's not forget that the taoiseach is the head of government. 200k might be a little too much for a country of our size but it's not too far off what other nations pay their government head.

Gigino, you were at one point raising valid points that I agree with you on. However, from reading your more recent posts, you seem to be taking extreme views on just about everything.

Do we spend too much on PS wages? YEs we do.
Do we spend too much on welfare? Yes we do
Are we broke? Yes we are.

Somehow, this thread has reiterated these points for nearly 120 pages. In my opinion, what needs to be said has been said.

doomed · 16-03-2011 09:17AM

This stuff about what the Taoiseach is paid compared to other heads of State is fun to talk about but is still a red herring. Barack Obama's salary is nominal as are those of the heads of all the major western countries. A CEO of any US corporation, even a mickey mouse one that hadn't been heard of outside its own state, will be paid more than the President. Some CEOs will be paid 100 times more than the holder of the most important job on the planet.

Even in Ireland in the past we had the heads of banks being paid 10 times what the Taoseach earns. If you had suggested taxing people like that higher you would have been told that this risks "talent" leaving the country. If only....

RichardAnd · 16-03-2011 09:33AM

doomed wrote: »

This stuff about what the Taoiseach is paid compared to other heads of State is fun to talk about but is still a red herring. Barack Obama's salary is nominal as are those of the heads of all the major western countries. A CEO of any US corporation, even a mickey mouse one that hadn't been heard of outside its own state, will be paid more than the President. Some CEOs will be paid 100 times more than the holder of the most important job on the planet.

Even in Ireland in the past we had the heads of banks being paid 10 times what the Taoseach earns. If you had suggested taxing people like that higher you would have been told that this risks "talent" leaving the country. If only....

A good point on the salary of the united states president. What I would add is that many presidents of the US were wealthy men before taking office and thus, did not even draw their salary. Comparing Ireland the the US like that doesn't really work.

MagicSean · 16-03-2011 09:41AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

A good point on the salary of the united states president. What I would add is that many presidents of the US were wealthy men before taking office and thus, did not even draw their salary. Comparing Ireland the the US like that doesn't really work.

Plus the US president gets many more perks.

RichardAnd · 16-03-2011 09:56AM

k_mac wrote: »

Plus the US president gets many more perks.

Yep, and has many, many more responsibilities and massive restrictions on how he can spend his time. Enda can walk to the shops for milk if he feels like it, obama needs armed guards with him all at all times. Personally, I'd freak out under that level of security

gigino · 17-03-2011 12:11AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

That taoiseach is no longer in charge and the old story about him getting more than obama is nonsense. The current salary of the taoiseach is, to my knowlege, about 200k euro.
.

In last Decembers budget the Taoiseach’s salary fell from €257,024 to €228,466 – a cut of €28,558, or 11%
http://www.moneyguideireland.com/ministers-salary-cuts-in-budget-2010.html
Obviously Ahern had a higher salary as Taoiseach,before de cuts and de rececession caused by de Leeman bank in de united states.

RichardAnd wrote: »

Obama gets 400k USD. Now, 400k dollara is about 290k euro so Enda does not get more than the president of the US. I believe that, for a brief peroid, the salary of the taoiseach was more than the president of the US but this is no longer the case

correct, apologies. The president of the USA though has close to 300 million people to support him, and the worlds biggest economy. He also is on call 24 / 7 in case of world events. He or his family will never be able to go for a stroll unaccompanied anywhere because of the terrorism threat. Remember when Reagen visited here - a friendly place like Ballyporeen - even manholes had to be inspected + then the steel covers welded down. And that was before 9/11 and Al.Q etc. Strange how Ahern thought he was worth more. The man who as minister for finance a few years previously had not a bank a/c but got a "dig-out" from his pals in Manchester. The problem is , other people in the government benchmarked themselves accordingly etc. Ah well, still a great country.

sarumite · 17-03-2011 03:57PM

keithcan wrote: »

Not planning on getting into the to and fro of the debates about cost of living and public service pay, but I think part of the cost of a public service is its SIZE. So the following is a quote from the OECD Public Management Review of Ireland 'TOWARDS AN INTEGRATED PUBLIC SERVICE' - P.63. Full Report at http://www.onegov.ie/eng/Publications/Ireland_-_Towards_an_Integrated_Public_Service.pdf

"The public sector workforce, excluding commercial state-sponsored bodies, is relatively low compared with other OECD countries, and significantly less than the level of public employment in Norway, Sweden, France, Finland and Belgium".

Noticeable that they refer to Finland as in Ireland has "significantly less" public employment.

I cannot say for the other countries, but I am curretly living in Sweden, so I have an understanding about things here. It should be noted that Swedens government is involved with a lot of the aspects of life.....an example being off licences. Swedish offy's are state owned and operated....therefore everyone working in the offy is considered a public sector employee. The same is true of the Apotheket, or pharmacies, here.Sweden also has larger military with mandatory military service.....during which period you are also considered a public servant. Furthermore Swedish taxes are higher and public service wages are lower than Ireland so they can also afford to have more PS (as they also need more).

ardmacha · 17-03-2011 10:29PM

If the Irish government took over off-licences and introduced conscription then the average salary of the PS would drop too.

sarumite · 17-03-2011 10:40PM

ardmacha wrote: »

If the Irish government took over off-licences and introduced conscription then the average salary of the PS would drop too.

I mean on like for like salaries....a doctor in Sweden earns less than a doctor in Ireland.

ardmacha · 17-03-2011 11:14PM

I mean on like for like salaries....a doctor in Sweden earns less than a doctor in Ireland.

True. But there are notable differences in the systems, as your post pointed out.

gigino · 17-03-2011 11:38PM

sarumite wrote: »

I mean on like for like salaries....a doctor in Sweden earns less than a doctor in Ireland.

+1. Remember thre was a Swedish doctor on the radio who was astounded at how highly paid Irish hospital doctors and consultants were compared to his colleagues in Sweden ?

erictheviking1 · 18-03-2011 10:17AM

gigino wrote: »

+1. Remember thre was a Swedish doctor on the radio who was astounded at how highly paid Irish hospital doctors and consultants were compared to his colleagues in Sweden ?

Yeah Right!:D You made that up.:)
Anyway,Sweden has a much more even distribution of wealth. Outside Stockholm, the cost of living is lower than even the UK. Property is much cheaper, schooling much better, the sick and elderly looked after. So again, its not like for like.
As for Hospital Doctors in Ireland, You only ever see foreign Doctors and students. I've no idea what they earn, but if the pay is so good why are they all emigrating? They seem to come back after they gain experience elsewhere to become GP's. and why not, when you can earn 60 lids for a 5 minute consultation. Nice!

noodler · 18-03-2011 11:17AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0318/1224292504570.html

"As public sector rails, the private sector suffers more"

MagicSean · 18-03-2011 11:29AM

The public sector aren't rallying against pay cuts. They are rallying against further pay cuts. The sector has already taken massive cuts.

And i would question the assertion that the public sector is still in decline

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0318/hays-business.html

Recruitment company Hays says it is hiring 40 graduates from Irish universities this year to work in its offices in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway.

The company says the recruitment campaign is aimed at meeting what it describes as 'an unprecedented increase' in demand for professional positions.

Hays says a surge in new job offers has been evident for the past number of months and is expected to be sustained throughout 2011.

It expects a 40% increase in the number of positions it places in 2011 compared with 2010. Hays says the main factor in the rise is increased activity among multi-national companies and indigenous exporting firms.

Count Dooku · 18-03-2011 11:35AM

erictheviking1 wrote: »

Yeah Right!:D You made that up.:)
Anyway,Sweden has a much more even distribution of wealth. Outside Stockholm, the cost of living is lower than even the UK. Property is much cheaper, schooling much better, the sick and elderly looked after. So again, its not like for like.

Probably because they realized danger of overpaying public sector more then private sector and in Sweden private sector average in 2008 was SEK 32,600, while for Central government workers it was SEK 29,100, County councils staff SEK 28,500 and Municipalities staff SEK 23,200

Vizzy · 18-03-2011 11:41AM

How much is a SEK worth versus the € ?

ardmacha · 18-03-2011 11:41AM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...292504570.html

"As public sector rails, the private sector suffers more"

This is a typical lazy and dishonest article. It does not factor the effect of the pension levy and any discussion of pay cuts that does not is simply dishonest. It is lazy because there is nothing remarkable about the private sector suffering more in a recession. Firstly the recession was caused in the first place by the private sector where get rich quick construction schemes have gone bust. But also because demand for things such as law enforcement, health and education do not tend to vary much over time, so neither expand or contract greatly in economic cycles. Demand for many ephemeral activities in the private sector largely disappears when there is a recession.

Count Dooku · 18-03-2011 11:51AM

Vizzy wrote: »

How much is a SEK worth versus the € ?

Today it was EUR 1 = SEK 8.9905 and I forgot to mention that data was about monthly gross

Unshelved · 18-03-2011 11:55AM

http://www.cartoonistgroup.com/properties/pett/art_images/cg4d626a6b1e40d.jpg

Says it all really.

Count Dooku · 18-03-2011 11:59AM

ardmacha wrote: »

This is a typical lazy and dishonest article. It does not factor the effect of the pension levy

Effect of pension levy will be compensated very soon by levy of pension savings of private sector workers

Welease · 18-03-2011 12:01PM

ardmacha wrote: »

This is a typical lazy and dishonest article. It does not factor the effect of the pension levy and any discussion of pay cuts that does not is simply dishonest. It is lazy because there is nothing remarkable about the private sector suffering more in a recession. Firstly the recession was caused in the first place by the private sector where get rich quick construction schemes have gone bust. But also because demand for things such as law enforcement, health and education do not tend to vary much over time, so neither expand or contract greatly in economic cycles. Demand for many ephemeral activities in the private sector largely disappears when there is a recession.

If that were strictly true (in terms of avoiding a contraction now), then we shouldn't have seen an increase in overall PS numbers during the "boom" either....

MagicSean · 18-03-2011 12:09PM

Demand on frontline services tends to expand in a recession.

Welease · 18-03-2011 12:13PM

k_mac wrote: »

Demand on frontline services tends to expand in a recession.

Not according to Ardmacha..

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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