Education reforms: would you prefer a pluralist or secular school system?

philologos · 17-03-2011 02:33PM

Secular school patronage system

Shenshen wrote: »

Nobody is denying them the right to educate their children as they see fit.
What I don't agree with is them demanding school educate their children for them, but only as they see fit.

Em. The schools already exist. Indeed, as I've already mentioned that this only involves RCC faith schools.

Shenshen wrote: »

You can feed them all the chips you like at home, just don't demand the school provide them.

An insinuation that going to a faith school is "harmful". Hm?

I'm still on the pluralist side of the argument. The problem is a lack of secular schools, we can rectify that while still allowing parents to choose in respect to faith or secular schools pretty much as they do in the UK. Indeed if you take a search on the Guardian website you'll find many cases of parents who are atheists choosing to bring their children to faith schools.

dvpower · 17-03-2011 02:36PM

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A secular system with religion as part of the curriculum i.e. teaching about religions, not indoctrination in any particular religion.

School facilities could be made available out of hours to the religious organisations for kids whose parents want them indoctrinated.

Everyone is catered for.

Mark Hamill · 17-03-2011 02:37PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, as an atheist you would. Fortunately society is comprised of numerous groups and as such it would seem best to allow people to decide how best to educate their children?

By the by, a Roman Catholic could have argued the same thing (we don't give an option on maths) to you as an atheist in the past.

Personally, I respect parents better judgement in this issue as the State does constitutionally.

Actually its nothing to do with my atheism, its not exactly a secularist position either. Imo, schools should be teaching kids the skills they need to get jobs and to be productive members of society, this is also why I think that Irish should be, at the very least, optional. If parents want a kid holding a specific opinion, then the parent should teach the kid about it, its not the schools job to teach kids to be football supporters or to believe that reality tv is a good thing, so I fail to see why schools should teach kids religion.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 02:37PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

An insinuation that going to a faith school is "harmful". Hm?

I'm still on the pluralist side of the argument. The problem is a lack of secular schools, we can rectify that while still allowing parents to choose in respect to faith or secular schools pretty much as they do in the UK. Indeed if you take a search on the Guardian website you'll find many cases of parents who are atheists choosing to bring their children to faith schools.

In a village of 40 children, you really think there's going to be a secular school, and a catholic school, and a protestant school and a muslim school? Really?

Yes. my mother "chose" to send me to a religious school as well. Because that was the only school actually teaching foreign languages other than Latin in my home town.
I agree with giving parents choices, but they have to be viable. A choice between going to a religious school or be educationally disadvantaged is not a viable choice.

wurzlitzer · 17-03-2011 02:38PM

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Secular

Instead of religion give them civic studies or some sort of world view/ world culture studies

philologos · 17-03-2011 02:39PM

Secular school patronage system

It has everything to do with your atheism. You think that faith schools aren't useful because you don't believe in a god or gods. Pretty much.

I think my viewpoint comes from a fairer perspective saying that yes faith schools should continue to exist and not only should they exist for my particular denomination, but that they should exist for a wide variety of communities even if I think their religious beliefs or lack thereof are nonsense.

Where one says it has to be between secular or faith schools I argue both.

philologos · 17-03-2011 02:41PM

Secular school patronage system

Shenshen wrote: »

In a village of 40 children, you really think there's going to be a secular school, and a catholic school, and a protestant school and a muslim school? Really?

Obviously not. Schools must fit a certain demand. If there is a sufficient demand such schools will be built or made available. That's simple logic.

By the by in a large amount of cases children in villages go to school in larger towns.

Mark Hamill · 17-03-2011 02:44PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

It has everything to do with your atheism. You think that faith schools aren't useful because you don't believe in a god or gods. Pretty much.

No not at all, but thanks for ignoring my point about Irish, supporting football and tv, I'm sure that makes it easier to strawman me. A school is supposed to give a child an education so that they can go and get a job, anything i superfluous and should be left to the parents.

Jakkass wrote: »

I think my viewpoint comes from a fairer perspective saying that yes faith schools should continue to exist and not only should they exist for my particular denomination, but that they should exist for a wide variety of communities even if I think their religious beliefs or lack thereof are nonsense.

How is it fair for kids to be sent to a schools teaching them beliefs that their parents then say are nonsense? the only fair way is if kids are all sent to the same type of school, one which leaves matters of opinions to the parents and teaches kids the necessary skills to function in life and get a job.

Jakkass wrote: »

Where one says it has to be between secular or faith schools I argue both.

And that would be a ridiculous waste of money.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 02:44PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

It has everything to do with your atheism. You think that faith schools aren't useful because you don't believe in a god or gods. Pretty much.

I think my viewpoint comes from a fairer perspective saying that yes faith schools should continue to exist and not only should they exist for my particular denomination, but that they should exist for a wide variety of communities even if I think their religious beliefs or lack thereof are nonsense.

Where one says it has to be between secular or faith schools I argue both.

Put it this way:
I've no problem with different denominations setting up schools to serve their communities, provided they

1) Make sure to teach the full curriculum and
2) Are not funded by the tax payer, but by the members

I do have a serious problem with making tax money available to teach any religion to anybody.

Also, despite the existence of such faith schools, the state need to be obliged to provide secular schools for each and every child, within a reasonable distance to their home.

Everything else is simply discriminatory.

Incidentally, that is one of the problems British parents have these days. On paper, they have plenty of schools to choose from, so the state is actually closing down some schools. In reality, that leaves parents with the choice to send the child to a Catholic or a Muslim school, with the next secular school being located in the next town.

gcgirl · 17-03-2011 02:45PM

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Leave it to their parents to teach them
That is all

E.T. · 17-03-2011 02:45PM

Dionysus wrote: »

120 minutes per week (3 classes).

150 mins a week in primary schools (5x30 mins). Then add on all the extra time classes spend preparing for sacraments, it's a lot of time taken from the educational curriculum. Religion as a subject is separate to the other 11 subjects, there's no choice of programme, there's only one religion book available, which teachers have to follow.

What I'd be in favour of is either a religions class once or twice a week, where children are educated (not indoctrinated) about different religions, or else that there would be time after school where the priest/rabbi/whatever would come and take the children of that faith for lessons.

Whatever happens, I definitely believe too much time is spent on religion in schools. I barely have time to get around to all of the kids in my class for the basics (English, Irish, Maths), let alone fit in the other 8 educational subjects, and then give half an hour to religion!

philologos · 17-03-2011 02:47PM

Secular school patronage system

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And that would be a ridiculous waste of money.

Not at all. If it was done strictly by the amount of demand that exists for any one given school there wouldn't be much issue.

The simple test to your hypothesis that faith schools are effectively useless would be to see if in a pluralist system that the demand for them would simply die out / change hands bringing about a purely secular school system. Personally I think its best that theists have a proper say in how best their children should be educated. If there is sufficient demand for faith schools I personally don't see any issue. Unless there is more to it Mark?

Again this is largely influenced by your atheism.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 02:52PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

Obviously not. Schools must fit a certain demand. If there is a sufficient demand such schools will be built or made available. That's simple logic.

By the by in a large amount of cases children in villages go to school in larger towns.

So where there already is a religious school, there is consequently no demand for a secular one. And parents not wishing their child being taught religious dogma can either drive them to school for an hour each morning, or move.

I live in a town with 4 religious schools. The nearest non-religious one is 45 minutes drive away, no direct public transport link.
But I can't demand that schools become secular, because parents have the right to have their children instructed in Catholic faith by the school?

Religion should be opt-in, not opt-out-if-you-can.

Mark Hamill · 17-03-2011 02:54PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

Not at all. If it was done strictly by the amount of demand that exists for any one given school there wouldn't be much issue.

And what happens in small towns, with 30 or 40 kids, 90% of which have parents wanting them in a faith schools? They would get one faith schools right? How exactly is that fair to the other 10% of kids, who either have to go a faith school or a secular possibly in the next town (if they are lucky)?

Jakkass wrote: »

The simple test to your hypothesis that faith schools are effectively useless would be to see if in a pluralist system that the demand for them would simply die out / change hands bringing about a purely secular school system.

Which would be a massive waste of money, as you would need to have equal amounts of faith and secular schools in close proximity to each other to make sure parents choose only in terms of the schools ethos.

Jakkass wrote: »

Again this is largely influenced by your atheism.

Like I said before, nothing to do with atheism, its to do with recognising what schools actually are meant to do. I dont support compulsory irish for similar reasons and I wouldn't support schools who wanted to teach kids to only appreciate a certain sport of type of tv - all schools are meant to do is prepare children to get a job and survive in the real world. Dont strawman me again.

philologos · 17-03-2011 02:56PM

Secular school patronage system

Shenshen wrote: »

I live in a town with 4 religious schools. The nearest non-religious one is 45 minutes drive away, no direct public transport link.
But I can't demand that schools become secular, because parents have the right to have their children instructed in Catholic faith by the school?

This is a result of mismanagement which is largely what Quinn is going to regulate. The idea of secularising all schools from what I've read doesn't seem to be the point of this forum on patronage. I'm saying lets fix the education system, but lets keep our prejudices about religion out of it.

Shenshen wrote: »

Religion should be opt-in, not opt-out-if-you-can.

Absolutely, which is why there should be faith schools for parents to opt in to if they want to. And secular schools for parents to opt in to if they want to.

The balance has to be struck. I don't see why your demand that all schools should be secular should be above and beyond the reasonable demand of parents to be able to bring their children to faith schools?

I'm not suggesting that all schools should be teaching my particular brand of Christianity. I think it is a disgrace that this has happened in the case of one denomination. We need to restructure the education system and I think the British model is what would suit Ireland best really.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 02:59PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

Not at all. If it was done strictly by the amount of demand that exists for any one given school there wouldn't be much issue.

The simple test to your hypothesis that faith schools are effectively useless would be to see if in a pluralist system that the demand for them would simply die out / change hands bringing about a purely secular school system. Personally I think its best that theists have a proper say in how best their children should be educated. If there is sufficient demand for faith schools I personally don't see any issue. Unless there is more to it Mark?

Again this is largely influenced by your atheism.

As I was already pointing out, nobody is asking to stop theists from educating their children as they see fit.
But they shouldn't expect schools to do it for them. Schools should provide the same education for all children. Whatever parents want to add on top of that is their choice, but not the duty of the school.

If parents want to finance a faith school, by all means, let them. But do not use this to deny secular parents the choice not to have their children instructed in any religion.

philologos · 17-03-2011 03:00PM

Secular school patronage system

Shenshen wrote: »

If parents want to finance a faith school, by all means, let them. But do not use this to deny secular parents the choice not to have their children instructed in any religion.

Tripe. All people in Irish society pay taxes irrespective of their beliefs.

I have no interest in denying secular parents any cholce. You are interested in denying people of faith choice. That's what I find so ridiculously hypocritical about your argument.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 03:05PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

Absolutely, which is why there should be faith schools for parents to opt in to if they want to. And secular schools for parents to opt in to if they want to.

The balance has to be struck. I don't see why your demand that all schools should be secular should be above and beyond the reasonable demand of parents to be able to bring their children to faith schools?

I'm not suggesting that all schools should be teaching my particular brand of Christianity. I think it is a disgrace that this has happened in the case of one denomination. We need to restructure the education system and I think the British model is what would suit Ireland best really.

Can I ask you if you would be in favour of the HSE setting up purely homeopathic and alternative-medicine hospitals, for those who want to opt out of school medicine?

Religion is a parent's choice. Education isn't, and shouldn't be.

I personally favour the French system, with secular schools and optional religious instructions on one afternoon a week, which is free time for children not wanting these lessons.
Splitting the system into more and more options is not going to work in a country with a small population spread across a wide are, simply because you will not have enough children in most places to offer any choice at all.
It's different in Britain which is bigger and much more densely populated. In a town of a few millions with a decent public transport system, such choices are of course great. In rural Kerry or West Cork, they are not going to work in the same way.
It's a lovely thought, but it will not happen in reality

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 03:07PM

Other (state in post)

Jakkass wrote: »

Tripe. All people in Irish society pay taxes irrespective of their beliefs.

I have no interest in denying secular parents any cholce. You are interested in denying people of faith choice. That's what I find so ridiculously hypocritical about your argument.

Why should that money be used to fund the choices of one particular group? Can you please answer me this?
I'm not going to deny anybody any choice, the parents are still free to send their child to whatever religious lessons the churches want to offer. How is that denying them any choices???

philologos · 17-03-2011 03:10PM

Secular school patronage system

Shenshen wrote: »

Why should that money be used to fund the choices of one particular group? Can you please answer me this?
I'm not going to deny anybody any choice, the parents are still free to send their child to whatever religious lessons the churches want to offer. How is that denying them any choices???

I think it should be used to fund the choices of everyone in respect to the educational system.

Secular schools and faith schools both have a place in Irish society as far as I see it. Hence why I'm advocating pluralism. I couldn't be said to do this if I just advocated the choices of a single group.

It is you who wants to deny choice to one particular group because of your own personal beliefs, not me.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-03-2011 03:10PM

Secular school patronage system

Jakkass wrote: »

It has everything to do with your atheism. You think that faith schools aren't useful because you don't believe in a god or gods. Pretty much.

I think my viewpoint comes from a fairer perspective saying that yes faith schools should continue to exist and not only should they exist for my particular denomination, but that they should exist for a wide variety of communities even if I think their religious beliefs or lack thereof are nonsense.

Where one says it has to be between secular or faith schools I argue both.

As long as they receive equal funding based on number of kids.

Jakkass wrote: »

Obviously not. Schools must fit a certain demand. If there is a sufficient demand such schools will be built or made available. That's simple logic.

By the by in a large amount of cases children in villages go to school in larger towns.

Priority should be given to secular schools, though. If it's a small town and only has one school, it's ludicrous to make that school faith based.

dvpower · 17-03-2011 03:11PM

Other (state in post)

Jakkass wrote: »

Tripe. All people in Irish society pay taxes irrespective of their beliefs.

I have no interest in denying secular parents any cholce. You are interested in denying people of faith choice. That's what I find so ridiculously hypocritical about your argument.

Are people of faith being denied a faith based justice system, a faith based social welfare system ... ?

philologos · 17-03-2011 03:14PM

Secular school patronage system

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Priority should be given to secular schools, though. If it's a small town and only has one school, it's ludicrous to make that school faith based.

I'd be open to this if there was an adequate choice of faith schools. Perhaps 1 in 3 along the same lines of the UK being faith schools?

It depends on the review of demand.

I just find if baffling that people who claimed that the RCC dominated education want to similarly deny choices to parents who wish to bring their kids to faith schools.

Perhaps Sheshen isn't really even understanding my argument. That is reasonable choice for all in the education system. It seems that we might be hitting one of these. Perhaps by virtue of being a theist my opinion doesn't really matter all that much?

drkpower wrote:

Are people of faith being denied a faith based justice system, a faith based social welfare system ... ?

Most Christians would have no issue with obeying any laws the State proposes in so far as they do not limit right of practice, and expression of beliefs. In that case I'd have to disobey the law. Education's different.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-03-2011 03:18PM

Secular school patronage system

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd be open to this if there was an adequate choice of faith schools. Perhaps 1 in 3 along the same lines of the UK being faith schools?

It depends on the review of demand.

I just find if baffling that people who claimed that the RCC dominated education want to similarly deny choices to parents who wish to bring their kids to faith schools.

Perhaps Sheshen isn't really even understanding my argument. That is reasonable choice for all in the education system. It seems that we might be hitting one of these. Perhaps by virtue of being a theist my opinion doesn't really matter all that much?

I think the only problem with your argument is that it assumes a large city and plenty of schools easily accessable. In rural areas, that won't be the case.

The RCC could, at a stretch, be seeing to deny choice indirectly by insisting on baptism certs.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 03:19PM

Other (state in post)

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it should be used to fund the choices of everyone in respect to the educational system.

Secular schools and faith schools both have a place in Irish society as far as I see it. Hence why I'm advocating pluralism. I couldn't be said to do this if I just advocated the choices of a single group.

It is you who wants to deny choice to one particular group because of your own personal beliefs, not me.

Personally, I'm a vegetarian, and I have strong beliefs and feelings about this.. I would never DREAM of asking for an exclusively vegetarian school, where subjects are taught according to vegetarian ethos and beliefs.
I accept that this is my choice and if I want my children to know about it, I need to teach them at home.
I don't think that this in any way impacts my choice, or the choices I can make for my child.

But apparently it is unacceptable for religious parents to teach their beliefs to their children, they need to have schools do that for them.
Schools should not be there to teach the beliefs of the parents, that is the job of the parents.

Ickle Magoo · 17-03-2011 03:21PM

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I don't mind there being faith schools as long as there are no cases of children being denied places in their local state school based on discrimination.

As long as every town has sufficient school places in secular schools to ensure that doesn't happen then I don't mind there also being faith schools if demand dictates.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 03:26PM

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Jakkass wrote: »

I'd be open to this if there was an adequate choice of faith schools. Perhaps 1 in 3 along the same lines of the UK being faith schools?

It depends on the review of demand.

I just find if baffling that people who claimed that the RCC dominated education want to similarly deny choices to parents who wish to bring their kids to faith schools.

Perhaps Shenshen isn't really even understanding my argument. That is reasonable choice for all in the education system. It seems that we might be hitting one of these. Perhaps by virtue of being a theist my opinion doesn't really matter all that much?

Most Christians would have no issue with obeying any laws the State proposes in so far as they do not limit right of practice, and expression of beliefs. In that case I'd have to disobey the law. Education's different.

You are very good at ignoring and misquoting people. and you certainly are a master strawman builder.

I have NEVER said I want to deny parents the choice to send their child to a faith school. Not once.
I have however said that faith schools should not be publicly funded.

I have also, along with other posters, spend the better part of the last hour or so trying to explain to you that the British system will work in densely populated areas with good public transport. Ireland - if you care to look around - doesn't really have those.

In the UK, big towns can offer a choice of schools, a choice of shops, and choice of pubs and restaurants.
Much of Ireland will offer you one school, one shop, one pub and if you're lucky a Chinese takeaway within a 20 mile radius. So what choice will you offer people in those areas?

Dionysus · 17-03-2011 03:32PM

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dvpower wrote: »

A secular system with religion as part of the curriculum i.e. teaching about religions, not indoctrination in any particular religion.

School facilities could be made available out of hours to the religious organisations for kids whose parents want them indoctrinated.

Everyone is catered for.

E.T. wrote: »

What I'd be in favour of is either a religions class once or twice a week, where children are educated (not indoctrinated) about different religions, or else that there would be time after school where the priest/rabbi/whatever would come and take the children of that faith for lessons.

That is precisely what is happening, in Catholic secondary schools at any rate, already.

E.T. wrote: »

Whatever happens, I definitely believe too much time is spent on religion in schools. I barely have time to get around to all of the kids in my class for the basics (English, Irish, Maths), let alone fit in the other 8 educational subjects, and then give half an hour to religion!

I agree entirely. I resent that kids are taken out of my class to attend confessions, masses (each first Friday and holy days like Ash Wednesday) and so forth. I - we - have work to cover in this course. I've gone to mass more in the past year than I have in years. It's frowned upon not to attend. I'm not ideologically against mass or any religious service: I just find it incredibly boring with not enough Gregorian chant or the like. I absolutely love church music and the history attached to Christianity, monasticism and the like. I could sit in an ancient church and listen to the acoustics forever.

While a mass/service can be very powerful and indeed necessary for the kids when a child in the school has been killed I don't think it's right to take kids out of classes in order to partake in religious services.

docmol · 17-03-2011 03:37PM

Other (state in post)

Dionysus wrote: »

120 minutes per week (3 classes).

At secondary level, at primary it's still 30 minutes per day.

philologos · 17-03-2011 03:42PM

Secular school patronage system

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I think the only problem with your argument is that it assumes a large city and plenty of schools easily accessable. In rural areas, that won't be the case.

The RCC could, at a stretch, be seeing to deny choice indirectly by insisting on baptism certs.

I think the policy on baptism certs needs to change personally. It should be first come first served in general. I think the fact that it was a RCC school with other alternatives available would mean that Catholics would be more likely to send their kids there, but it should be open.

That said, I don't think I agree. My argument largely supposes that villages would be in the catchment area of larger towns in the vast majority of cases. If there was not a school directly in their village, there would be a school in the nearest town if there was sufficient demand for such a school.

Education reforms: would you prefer a pluralist or secular school system?

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