Education reforms: would you prefer a pluralist or secular school system?

Dionysus · 17-03-2011 01:15PM #1

I see Ruairí Quinn, the new Minister for Education, has decided that he is going to overhaul the entire school patronage system. He is opting to reform the existing pluralist system whereby each religious grouping will maintain schools which are funded by the state.

Minister announces forum on school patronage

A secular system, in contrast, would replace all these schools with one single non-denominational state school system. This would take some time and money as the state would have to buy out or build schools for such a system. In a secular education system, religious teaching would be the responsibility of parents in their own homes, not in state-financed (usually privately-owned) schools as is the current situation.

I think Irish schools should be part of a secular education system rather than merely be reformed within the existing pluralist system. Having said that I can see the dangers in a state having too much control in education and the need to balance that power. I think this can be done within a secular system, however.

Would you prefer to reform the existing pluralist system or to create a new secular education system in Ireland?

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 01:18PM

Other (state in post)

Secular.
Religious instructions can take place after school on a voluntary basis, or be provided by parents. It's not the job of schools.

Saila · 17-03-2011 01:20PM

Secular, they can go to the big building with a steepal on it if they want religion.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-03-2011 01:22PM

Secular school patronage system

Have to agree. No problem with religious based schools, but they should not be funded by the state.

The other option is that all schools should be funded to an equal proportion of the state regardless of what ethos they follow. This includes non-religious and educate together schools.

Duckworth_Luas · 17-03-2011 01:24PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Would you prefer to reform the existing pluralist system or to create a new secular education system in Ireland?

To be quite honest I'm more worried that children are leaving our education system unable to read and write than if they get 45 minutes of religious guidance each week.

gcgirl · 17-03-2011 01:25PM

Other (state in post)

Personally I think it's up to parents to teach their kids religion if the want, how many people have no faith and get their kids to make their communion/confirmation just for the day that's in it, it makes it so cheap to Look at it, I don't have any respect for people who have that outlook, I'm an atheist and my kids can make their own mind up when their adults and until then I would prefer them not to be indoctrinated in to some fairy tale religion.

Tim Robbins · 17-03-2011 01:26PM

Other (state in post)

Secular. I see telling kids what to believe in on matters we don't know that much about as the very opposite to education.

docmol · 17-03-2011 01:30PM

Other (state in post)

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

To be quite honest I'm more worried that children are leaving our education system unable to read and write than if they get 45 minutes of religious guidance each week.

It's not 45 minutes per week, it's 30 minutes per day.

Dionysus · 17-03-2011 01:35PM

Other (state in post)

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Secular. I see telling kids what to believe in on matters we don't know that much about as the very opposite to education.

I think a large part of the problem with teaching religion now is not even with the course; at least in terms of its content it teaches kids about all religions and faith systems. It's catholic in the universal sense rather than the Catholic Church sense.

However, the problem is when a kid asks the teacher about things like heaven, Adam & Eve, purgatory and so many other questions that the teacher in very many (most?) cases does not believe and is well aware that much (most?) of the stuff was invented by the various churches over time.

Dionysus · 17-03-2011 01:36PM

Other (state in post)

docmol wrote: »

It's not 45 minutes per week, it's 30 minutes per day.

120 minutes per week (3 classes).

dark crystal · 17-03-2011 01:39PM

Other (state in post)

gcgirl wrote: »

Personally I think it's up to parents to teach their kids religion if the want, how many people have no faith and get their kids to make their communion/confirmation just for the day that's in it, it makes it so cheap to Look at it, I don't have any respect for people who have that outlook, I'm an atheist and my kids can make their own mind up when their adults and until then I would prefer them not to be indoctrinated in to some fairy tale religion.

That's my view too. However, when I had to enroll my daughter in a shool, I had no choice but to enroll her into a RC school, as there were no secular schools in my area. We didn't baptise her and said we would leave the choice up to her whether she wanted to make her commuinion whe the time came.
Of course, every other child in her class was doing so and she didn't want to feel like the black sheep, so we had to baptise her in order to join in with the pack. It wouldn't be my choice, bu I'm not going to ram my beliefs down her throat, simply to make a personal point.

Luckily, an Educate together school opened here in the last few years, so I have enrolled my son there - thank goodness he won't have to feel like an outsider there.

gcgirl · 17-03-2011 01:44PM

Other (state in post)

I'm sending the youngest 2 to an ET school the eldest is kind of for the min ok where she is as in a yr or 2 she will be going to a specialised school to meet her needs.

Duckworth_Luas · 17-03-2011 01:45PM

docmol wrote: »

It's not 45 minutes per week, it's 30 minutes per day.

:eek: What kind of school did you go to? I went to a CBS, 45 minutes of RE a week, doss class, happy days! In fact the class usually consisted of 30 teenage boys debating how ridiculous religion was with a teacher who wished they were somewhere else.

philologos · 17-03-2011 01:46PM

Secular school patronage system

Shenshen wrote: »

Secular.
Religious instructions can take place after school on a voluntary basis, or be provided by parents. It's not the job of schools.

It's quite ironic that the people who were claiming there wasn't an adequate choice in the school system are so eager to deny others this choice. Interesting to say the least.

The only schools that are coming under state patronage are RCC schools and even then changing patronage does not necessarily mean that all will be losing their ethos. There are still other faith schools (other Christian, Muslim and Jewish) operating outside of this remit.

Also if they did secularise all schools there would be constitutional issues methinks.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-03-2011 01:46PM

Secular school patronage system

There was a pic posted on the you laugh you lose thread a short while ago:

Religion is a lot like a penis

Nice to have, nice to be proud of, but don't whip it out on public or force it down childrens' throats.

Dionysus · 17-03-2011 01:50PM

Other (state in post)

dark crystal wrote: »

That's my view too. However, when I had to enroll my daughter in a shool, I had no choice but to enroll her into a RC school, as there were no secular schools in my area. We didn't baptise her and said we would leave the choice up to her whether she wanted to make her commuinion whe the time came.
Of course, every other child in her class was doing so and she didn't want to feel like the black sheep, so we had to baptise her in order to join in with the pack. It wouldn't be my choice, bu I'm not going to ram my beliefs down her throat, simply to make a personal point.

Luckily, an Educate together school opened here in the last few years, so I have enrolled my son there - thank goodness he won't have to feel like an outsider there.

That is a problem, and one which Quinn is trying to address by weakening the CC's hold on schools. In fairness to the CC in Dublin at any rate, Diarmuid Martin has been at the forefront in calling for the state to take over many of the CC schools. However, Quinn's solution is in essence to reduce the CC's power within the pluralist system and in doing so to consolidate the same pluralist school patronage system. I think we should be making a break from that past and setting the foundation stone of a secular education system.

gcgirl · 17-03-2011 01:50PM

Other (state in post)

Jackass I beleive if you have any convition in your religion you praticed a hundred percent and not just 10 or 20%, the church of Ireland have Sunday school maybe the catholic church should have something simlier where as pratising Catholics can sent their kids

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-03-2011 01:53PM

Secular school patronage system

gcgirl wrote: »

Jackass I beleive if you have any convition in your religion you praticed a hundred percent and not just 10 or 20%, the church of Ireland have Sunday school maybe the catholic church should have something simlier where as pratising Catholics can sent their kids

It would probably be more practical than mass.

gcgirl · 17-03-2011 01:58PM

Other (state in post)

I'm not an expert on Sunday school but it's a lot more pratical than mass, it's actually takes place in the community hall and they do their religious class which in a catholic setting is a school.

Sanjuro · 17-03-2011 02:00PM

Other (state in post)

Secular. School is about education, not religion. Religious education should be administered by parents and not taking time from subjects that would be more beneficial for education.

KeithAFC · 17-03-2011 02:06PM

Sanjuro wrote: »

Secular. School is about education, not religion. Religious education should be administered by parents and not taking time from subjects that would be more beneficial for education.

Learning about religion in many forms is education. Even if you don't agree with it. Same with learning about Hitler or the PIRA, still education to learn about it.

Never going to get secular schools as the majority.

Sanjuro · 17-03-2011 02:08PM

Other (state in post)

KeithAFC wrote: »

Learning about religion in many forms is education. Even if you don't agree with it. Same with learning about Hitler or the PIRA, still education to learn about it.

Never going to get secular schools as the majority.

Yeah, I understand that argument. But if that is going to be taught, it should be labelled something different. Maybe 'History of Cultures' or something similar. The question was asked about the teaching of religion, and I take it the OP means religious education like we had in Catholic schools.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 02:16PM

Other (state in post)

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

To be quite honest I'm more worried that children are leaving our education system unable to read and write than if they get 45 minutes of religious guidance each week.

Considering the amount of time actually dedicated to religious instructions, maybe if those were cut out there would be enough time to teach children to read and write?

Mark Hamill · 17-03-2011 02:17PM

Other (state in post)

Jakkass wrote: »

It's quite ironic that the people who were claiming there wasn't an adequate choice in the school system are so eager to deny others this choice. Interesting to say the least.

I fail to see why schools should offer this kind of choice. We wouldn't offer a choice for people who dont want their kids taught any maths. People can still make the personal choice and teach about whatever religion they believe in to their kids outside of school time, where it belongs.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 02:18PM

Other (state in post)

Jakkass wrote: »

It's quite ironic that the people who were claiming there wasn't an adequate choice in the school system are so eager to deny others this choice. Interesting to say the least.

That is a little like accusing a vegetarian of not offering meat to non-vegetarian dinner guests.
Pointless and puerile.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 02:20PM

Other (state in post)

KeithAFC wrote: »

Learning about religion in many forms is education. Even if you don't agree with it. Same with learning about Hitler or the PIRA, still education to learn about it.

Never going to get secular schools as the majority.

There's a difference between learning about religions and getting instructed in in religious belief.

philologos · 17-03-2011 02:20PM

Secular school patronage system

gcgirl wrote: »

Jackass I beleive if you have any convition in your religion you praticed a hundred percent and not just 10 or 20%, the church of Ireland have Sunday school maybe the catholic church should have something simlier where as pratising Catholics can sent their kids

I went to Church of Ireland schools (primary and secondary), yes they exist. Admittedly the latter wasn't public.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-03-2011 02:21PM

Secular school patronage system

KeithAFC wrote: »

Learning about religion in many forms is education. Even if you don't agree with it. Same with learning about Hitler or the PIRA, still education to learn about it.

Never going to get secular schools as the majority.

As long as all faiths are taught on an equal basis and done so to promote knowledge and tolerance of other cultures.

It doesn't really address the issue of funding though, which is the main concern for a lot of people, especially non catholic parents.

philologos · 17-03-2011 02:25PM

Secular school patronage system

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I fail to see why schools should offer this kind of choice. We wouldn't offer a choice for people who dont want their kids taught any maths. People can still make the personal choice and teach about whatever religion they believe in to their kids outside of school time, where it belongs.

Indeed, as an atheist you would. Fortunately society is comprised of numerous groups and as such it would seem best to allow people to decide how best to educate their children?

By the by, a Roman Catholic could have argued the same thing (we don't give an option on maths) to you as an atheist in the past.

Personally, I respect parents better judgement in this issue as the State does constitutionally.

sollar · 17-03-2011 02:26PM

Other (state in post)

I favour 100% secular no mention of religion at all.

Shenshen · 17-03-2011 02:30PM

Other (state in post)

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, as an atheist you would. Fortunately society is comprised of numerous groups and as such it would seem best to allow people to decide how best to educate their children?

By the by, a Roman Catholic could have argued the same thing to you as an atheist in the past.

Personally, I respect parents better judgement in this issue as the State does constitutionally.

Nobody is denying them the right to educate their children as they see fit.
What I don't agree with is them demanding school educate their children for them, but only as they see fit.

The problem I have with the "different patronages" thing is, this is a very, very small country. And although people in Dublin will be spoilt for choice when it comes to schools for their offspring, people in rural areas where the number of children around is smaller will still be in the same situation : Expose your child to religious instructions you don't agree with, or drive them to school a few dozen miles away every day.

This whole "choice" argument is pretty much the same that was brought up some years back when Jamie Oliver did the school dinners thing... parents demanded that their children be able to choose between healthy food and chips.
You can feed them all the chips you like at home, just don't demand the school provide them.

Education reforms: would you prefer a pluralist or secular school system?

Would you prefer a reformed pluralist or secular school patronage system? 181 votes

Comments