Freemasonry and Opus Dei

Stones85 · 03-09-2009 08:55PM #1

Firstly, not comparing the two in any way.

Have just finished reading the Alta Vendita, a freemason document which outlines there strategy of infiltrating and liberalising the Catholic Church over decades/centuries. The book implys that vatican 2 was the fruits of freemasons work not only within the Church but also in western society. The liberalisation of Catholics worldwide and in doing so hoping to dilute the teachings and the traditions of Catholicism seemingly being their aim and in doing so dicrediting and therby destroying Catholicism.

Opus Dei; the reason I'm bringing them into it is this, they are a conservative organisation within the Catholic Church, a rapidly growing body, and a focal/rallying point for Catholics (theres no such thing as a liberal or conservative catholic in my mind.... you're either catholic or not). They seem to be a powerful force and growing in influence.

My question is this.

Are Opus Dei there to counter the Alta Vendita of Freemasonry?

Opus Dei aren't a secret organisation in any way unlike the Freemasons, They don't seek political influence like the Freemasons do, but are engaged in what they call Spiritual Warfare in helping ordinary people live their lives according to their faith.

not sure if i got my point across.....

kelly1 · 04-09-2009 10:02AM

Interesting theory. Apparently the communists were bent on destroying the RCC too. I read AA-1025 memoirs of an anti-apostle. Shocking, but not surprising, if it's true!

prinz · 04-09-2009 11:17AM

Stones85 wrote: »

Opus Dei aren't a secret organisation in any way unlike the Freemasons, They don't seek political influence like the Freemasons do, but are engaged in what they call Spiritual Warfare in helping ordinary people live their lives according to their faith.
.....

Opus Dei is an organisation I am hugely interested in and have read widely about. While the founding principles may have been sound by Escríva, i.e. the ordinary and lay path to holiness etc, IMO the organisation is deeply suspicious, has exercised heavy influence, political and otherwise over the years, and is far more concerned with cloak and dagger stuff than almost any other religious organisation in the world. Long story short I believe the Church has more to fear from Opus Dei than any freemason plot.

kelly1 · 04-09-2009 11:29AM

prinz wrote: »

Opus Dei is an organisation I am hugely interested in and have read widely about. While the founding principles may have been sound by Escríva, i.e. the ordinary and lay path to holiness etc, IMO the organisation is deeply suspicious, has exercised heavy influence, political and otherwise over the years, and is far more concerned with cloak and dagger stuff than almost any other religious organisation in the world. Long story short I believe the Church has more to fear from Opus Dei than any freemason plot.

I don't know much about them but maybe their name is being blackened by "the forces of darkness"? Don't want to get too dramatic though!

How do you know the books/material you read isn't just negative propaganda? But like I said, I know very little about them....

prinz · 04-09-2009 11:53AM

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't know much about them but maybe their name is being blackened by "the forces of darkness"? Don't want to get too dramatic though!

How do you know the books/material you read isn't just negative propaganda? But like I said, I know very little about them....

They do enough themselves to leave a dark cloud over the whole organisation. To be fair the books I have have been balanced, contrasting the original vision of what Opus Dei could have been, with how it has turned out, I will look for links to the books I am thinking of, don't have them with me. As for the dodgy past and present, there are connections to right wing political extremes, very shady financial dealings including heavy involvement in and around th Vatican Bank crisis, and the construction of a multi multi million dollar skyscraper in New York a meteoric rise to personal prelature of the Pope, which took everyone even within the Church by suprise, and the intense secrecy of the organisation ( which bemused me tbh with the OP contrasting it with freemasonry ) the two are actually incredibly similar.

As for the doctrines of Opus Dei in relation to the lay path to holiness etc, and the focus on private and professional lives I'm quite partial to it. Here's the main book I have on Opus Dei.... as you can see from the pedigree of the author I doubt he has an axe to grind in relation to Catholicism.. the book was very fair, and very shocking.

http://www.amazon.com/Opus-Dei-Objective-Controversial-Catholic/dp/0385514492

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_L._Allen,_Jr.

Phototoxin · 04-09-2009 06:55PM

I don't know much about them but maybe their name is being blackened by "the forces of darkness"? Don't want to get too dramatic though!

ahh yes the old 'sign of contrition' argument.... in that case its the jesuits you should be backing as they get slated left right and centre!!

Also in my eyes Esriva was a machosist.

Stones85 · 06-09-2009 09:02PM

Phototoxin wrote: »

ahh yes the old 'sign of contrition' argument.... in that case its the jesuits you should be backing as they get slated left right and centre!!

Also in my eyes Esriva was a machosist.

Come on guys.... regardless of your own personal view he's Saint Escriva. And made A Saint by JP2
Respect where its due.

Opus Dei is absolutely not in any way secret, it's 100% open. Most critisisms I've read have been proven to be false or the person joining didn't like living a strict Catholic lifestyle and so came into conflict with leaders.

Most disgruntled members in my experience have been female....... I stand to correction.

But lets not go off topic........ was hoping to dicuss the theory and peoples opinions of the theory

prinz · 06-09-2009 10:36PM

Stones85 wrote: »

Opus Dei is absolutely not in any way secret, it's 100% open. Most critisisms I've read have been proven to be false or the person joining didn't like living a strict Catholic lifestyle and so came into conflict with leaders

It is still intensely secretive

For 30 odd years a members were expressly forbidden from admitting membership without the approval of superiors, even when this was changed in the '80's it is still widely practised within the organisation. You will never see an Opus Dei project identified as such, i.e. an Opus Dei run school etc...

If you haven't read the book above I'd strongly suggest you do. It's actually quote supportive of the organisation and debunks most of the theories and criticisms levelled at it, but it also lays out the reality that Opus Dei do nothing to actually help themselves in this regard. As the author found out the New York skyscraper HQ didn't even have a street sign or a sign on the door etc.

Edit: As for the theory, tbh to put it bluntly I think it's nonsensical.

Phototoxin · 07-09-2009 05:19PM

Come on guys.... regardless of your own personal view he's Saint Escriva. And made A Saint by JP2
Respect where its due.

Tomás de Torquemada?

Vladamir the Bastard? (one of my favourite saints btw.. being a saint doesn't necessarily mean being good)

Anyway on the topic of opus dei I'm sure they are training a legion
of albino ninja monks to kill all the athiests in the world as we speak ;-)

stanley 2 · 04-03-2011 03:28AM

Teaches exactly what the magisterium of the chuch teaches and nothing more or less

newmug · 04-03-2011 05:00AM

How do you join?

georgieporgy · 04-03-2011 08:52AM

newmug wrote: »

How do you join?

http://www.opusdei.ie/art.php?p=48

PS John Allen is a reporter for the National Catholic Reporter. Other writers for that american anti catholic paper are Richard Mcbrien and Joan Chittester.

Donatello · 04-03-2011 02:27PM

The only thing I don't like about Opus Dei is the tendency towards elitism.

You'll find that many professional elites are attracted to Opus Dei as a status symbol. I would question the motivation of many people drawn to Opus Dei. Maybe I shouldn't but I would have my suspicions. In that case, membership becomes little different to membership of the Freemasons, Rotary Club, Knights of Columbanus etc... Note that these organisations do a lot of good work - even the un-Catholic Freemasons do charity work - but they tend to attract people who want to get on in the world and use these groups as networking tools.

It is the tendency to elitism within Opus Dei that I have a problem with. The books and writings of the founder are good. I saw a bit of a programme last night featuring the founder and what he said was sound - he said that of the jobs - professional or manual - which was the most worthy one? The answer is - the one done with most love for God. Fine and good. But what's it like within Opus Dei? I'd be interested to see a breakdown of the membership (not publicly available) of how many bricklayers there are versus doctors and university lecturers. Are there poor members of Opus Dei, or are they all highly paid professionals? That would tell you a lot.

I also think that the organisation's emphasis on work, whilst laudable, ignores the living reality for thousands of people who have no work and have little prospect of gaining work any time soon. It seems like there is no place within Opus Dei for the unemployed.

In short, I think Opus dei is a good organisation in principal, even in practise, but I think they need to maybe look at the reality on the ground - how the organisation is viewed from the outside, and how the organisation might exclude certain people from membership. Note that I have no proof that they do exclude anybody - we'd need an Opus Dei member to come tell us about that! I only go by what I have seen, read, and heard, and even having attended some of their events.

georgieporgy · 16-03-2011 07:09PM

Donatello wrote: »

The only thing I don't like about Opus Dei is the tendency towards elitism.

You'll find that many professional elites are attracted to Opus Dei as a status symbol. I would question the motivation of many people drawn to Opus Dei. Maybe I shouldn't but I would have my suspicions. In that case, membership becomes little different to membership of the Freemasons, Rotary Club, Knights of Columbanus etc... Note that these organisations do a lot of good work - even the un-Catholic Freemasons do charity work - but they tend to attract people who want to get on in the world and use these groups as networking tools.

It is the tendency to elitism within Opus Dei that I have a problem with. The books and writings of the founder are good. I saw a bit of a programme last night featuring the founder and what he said was sound - he said that of the jobs - professional or manual - which was the most worthy one? The answer is - the one done with most love for God. Fine and good. But what's it like within Opus Dei? I'd be interested to see a breakdown of the membership (not publicly available) of how many bricklayers there are versus doctors and university lecturers. Are there poor members of Opus Dei, or are they all highly paid professionals? That would tell you a lot.

I also think that the organisation's emphasis on work, whilst laudable, ignores the living reality for thousands of people who have no work and have little prospect of gaining work any time soon. It seems like there is no place within Opus Dei for the unemployed.

In short, I think Opus dei is a good organisation in principal, even in practise, but I think they need to maybe look at the reality on the ground - how the organisation is viewed from the outside, and how the organisation might exclude certain people from membership. Note that I have no proof that they do exclude anybody - we'd need an Opus Dei member to come tell us about that! I only go by what I have seen, read, and heard, and even having attended some of their events.

As no member of Opus Dei has responded to this invitation, I feel I should make some effort to give a more accurate picture. I am not a member, but I have attended retreats and other activities over the past 30 years.This link is full of commentaries from people from all walks of life:
http://www.josemariaescriva.info/section/testimonies/1

there are many testimonies but to whet your appetite I will post one ....

I am a Hindu by religion

Nilisha Rao, New Delhi, India

June 1, 2009

I am Indian, a Hindu by religion, and I am interested in everything transcendental. My connection with Opus Dei goes back to the beginnings of its presence in New Delhi, and has helped me in my search for my own spiritual path. Hearing about Josemaria Escriva and his mission motivated me a great deal. I have read nearly all (continued at length if you click the above link)

mdebets · 16-03-2011 07:49PM

To balance the good testimonies from georgieporgy, I'll add a link here to some negative testimonies from some former members.
Opus Dei Awareness Network

Propellerhead · 21-03-2011 12:45PM

Stones85 wrote: »

Come on guys.... regardless of your own personal view he's Saint Escriva. And made A Saint by JP2
Respect where its due.

Opus Dei is absolutely not in any way secret, it's 100% open. Most critisisms I've read have been proven to be false or the person joining didn't like living a strict Catholic lifestyle and so came into conflict with leaders.

Most disgruntled members in my experience have been female....... I stand to correction.

But lets not go off topic........ was hoping to dicuss the theory and peoples opinions of the theory

Indeed. Respect only when its due. Not in this case.

I will not call a supporter of Spanish fascism a saint. For that reason alone the case for the sainthood of John Paul II should also be called into question, along with his declaration of Pius IX as blessed.

Authoritarianism is not a mark of holiness, in fact the reverse.

JonJoeDali · 24-03-2011 10:36AM

Propellerhead wrote: »

Indeed. Respect only when its due. Not in this case.

I will not call a supporter of Spanish fascism a saint. For that reason alone the case for the sainthood of John Paul II should also be called into question, along with his declaration of Pius IX as blessed.

Authoritarianism is not a mark of holiness, in fact the reverse.

Ah yes, propellerhead sees himself fit to decide who can and cannot be made a saint. Perhaps you should apply for a job in Rome, seeing as you know better...

Owen · 24-03-2011 10:41AM

Stones85 wrote: »

Opus Dei aren't a secret organisation in any way unlike the Freemasons, They don't seek political influence like the Freemasons do,

Yay, more conspiracy theory bullsh*t. There's a forum for that.

Just FYI, Freemasonry isn't a secret organisation. Meetings times and places are published, you're even welcome to tour any of the buildings and attend any of the social events. The only secrets in Freemasonry are the funny handshakes, everything else is completely open and transparent.

I think people have a tendancy to read 2+2 and come up with 22. You're confusing the Conspiracy Theory normally associated with the Illuminati and Opus Dei nonsense with the normal run of the mill everyday Freemasonry.

georgieporgy · 15-04-2011 10:41PM

http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1458&Itemid=214

Click the link, you'll be glad you did.....

stanley 2 · 19-09-2011 04:57AM

check out film ther be dragons

Monty. · 19-09-2011 05:53PM

Stones85 wrote: »

My question is this.

Are Opus Dei there to counter the Alta Vendita of Freemasonry?

No. Traditional Catholicism is all you need.

The abuse of, misinterpretation, and misapplication of Vatican II has done much damage. When you hear the phrase "in the spirit of Vatican II, it is usually someone trying to change the traditions of the Church to match current worldly fashions, and not for the better.

alex73 · 19-09-2011 09:49PM

Monty. wrote: »

No. Traditional Catholicism is all you need.

The abuse of, misinterpretation, and misapplication of Vatican II has done much damage. When you hear the phrase "in the spirit of Vatican II, it is usually someone trying to change the traditions of the Church to match current worldly fashions, and not for the better.

Well the Opus was formed before Vatican II, What exactly do you take exception with about the Council... Before it we could not even attend a Protestant funeral, was that right? I mean when President Hyde died and his funeral was in St. Patricks the Taoiseach of the day did not even go!, Right? That practice was changed with the Council, was it wrong to do so?

georgieporgy · 19-09-2011 10:17PM

alex73 wrote: »

Well the Opus was formed before Vatican II, What exactly do you take exception with about the Council... Before it we could not even attend a Protestant funeral, was that right? I mean when President Hyde died and his funeral was in St. Patricks the Taoiseach of the day did not even go!, Right? That practice was changed with the Council, was it wrong to do so?

I don't think Monty was criticising Vatican2, but rather the misinterpretation of it.
but that's an interesting fact you raise about catholics not being allowed to attend funerals of other denominations. My parents (country folk) used to go to neighbours' funerals ,but I suppose it was just to the graveyard and not the church service.

Monty. · 19-09-2011 11:02PM

georgieporgy wrote: »

I don't think Monty was criticising Vatican2, but rather the misinterpretation of it.

Thats what I meant all right.

Monty. wrote:

The abuse of, misinterpretation, and misapplication of Vatican II has done much damage.

Not Vatican II itself, as it was intended.

Here's some examples :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX2bO2tgVD8

I've seen a few examples almost as bad in Ireland as well.

The guitar and tambourine "liturgical dancing" brigade come to mind.

The so called "Association of Catholic Priests" and their agenda, would be another example trying to mis apply Vatican II for their own liberal agenda.

Thank God Pope Benedict has promoted the extraordinary form to bring more respect back to The Holy Sacrifice of The Mass, and to promote a good example to the ordinary form.

Monty. · 19-09-2011 11:17PM

Leaving aside conspiracy theories, freemasonry has been involved in the Vatican before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banco_Ambrosiano

PatricaMcKay2 · 20-09-2011 08:39PM

Both are satanic organizations whos kingdom is very much of this world.

ISAW · 21-09-2011 10:31AM

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Both are satanic organizations whos kingdom is very much of this world.

Are you a drive by shooter from the conspiracy theory forum?

Wher is your evidence Opus Dei are satanic?

Freemasonry and Opus Dei

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