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How much money does the state give the Catholic Church?

  • 15-03-2011 04:28PM
    #1
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,039 ✭✭✭


    How much money does the state give the Catholic Church? and any other religion?


«134

Comments

  • #2
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    How much money does the state give the Catholic Church? and any other religion?

    I would have thought they were merely tax exempt as other non-profits are?


  • #3
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    How much money does the state give the Catholic Church? and any other religion?
    There was that sweet imdemnity deal that Michael Woods did with them.
    That was worth a few bob.


  • #4
    FISMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭FISMA


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    How much money does the state give the Catholic Church? and any other religion?

    I wonder if it balances the amount of money that the Catholic Church saves the state: hospitals, charities, education, and such?


  • #5
    murphthesmurf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭murphthesmurf


    I hope the answer to this is none.
    I'd also like to know what shares they own and in what companies.
    The church of England at one time owned shares in GEC, an arms manufacturer :eek:
    Might do a google search of this when I get chance, might be interesting.


  • #6
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    How much money does the state give the Catholic Church? and any other religion?

    The State will give us money? Where do I apply? :eek:


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  • #7
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    PDN wrote: »
    The State will give us money? Where do I apply? :eek:
    You need to fill in the GFY1 form (in triplicate for Christian denominations) and send it freepost to Ruari Quinn. :pac:


  • #8
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    FISMA wrote: »
    I wonder if it balances the amount of money that the Catholic Church saves the state: hospitals, charities, education, and such?

    The state pays for the hospitals, education and such.


  • #9
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,530 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    FISMA wrote: »
    I wonder if it balances the amount of money that the Catholic Church saves the state: hospitals, charities, education, and such?
    did they fly the money for this in from rome?


  • #10
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    FISMA wrote: »
    I wonder if it balances the amount of money that the Catholic Church saves the state: hospitals, charities, education, and such?
    I'm intrigued, how much do they save us?


  • #11
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    A one-minute ad every day at 6 pm would set you back millions a year.


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  • #12
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    How much money does the state give the Catholic Church? and any other religion?
    PDN wrote: »
    The State will give us money? Where do I apply? :eek:

    here
    https://www.catholicmatch.com/signup.html
    :)


  • #13
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    The State will give us money?
    In terms of tax benefits, the state does pay you by relieving you of the obligation to pay the kinds of corporation taxes that the rest of us pay, since the DoF considers the propagation of religion a charitable act.


  • #14
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,291 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    In terms of tax benefits, the state does pay you by relieving you of the obligation to pay the kinds of corporation taxes that the rest of us pay, since the DoF considers the propagation of religion a charitable act.
    So if you're income tax rate is cut, do you consider that the State has "given you money"? If the income tax rate goes up, do you consider that the State is merely giving you less money?

    No, I didn't think so.

    You can certainly question the policy of providing tax exemptions for religious organisations. But there is a useful distinction to be maintained between the state paying for something (e.g, when the state pays a charitable - or a commercial - organisation to provide some publicly useful service) and the state not taxing something or someone, and I don't think the disucssion is going to be illuminated if we pretend the distinction doesn't exist.


  • #15
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote: »
    In terms of tax benefits, the state does pay you by relieving you of the obligation to pay the kinds of corporation taxes that the rest of us pay, since the DoF considers the propagation of religion a charitable act.

    The 'rest of you' don't pay corporation taxes unless you are running a corporation. So, Robin, can you stand with hand over heart and honestly tell us that Irish Skeptics pays corporation tax?


  • #16
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    So if you're income tax rate is cut, do you consider that the State has "given you money"? If the income tax rate goes up, do you consider that the State is merely giving you less money?

    No, I didn't think so.

    You can certainly question the policy of providing tax exemptions for religious organisations. But there is a useful distinction to be maintained between the state paying for something (e.g, when the state pays a charitable - or a commercial - organisation to provide some publicly useful service) and the state not taxing something or someone, and I don't think the disucssion is going to be illuminated if we pretend the distinction doesn't exist.

    Personally I think the whole 'charitable' thing is unhelpful as a legal category, because it involves some kind of subjective value judgement and can be used to discriminate against minorities. (Although in Ireland the Revenue Commissioners are very even-handed, granting the same status to the Humanist Association of Ireland as to churches).

    A fairer system would be to class organisations as non-profit. We expect corporations to be taxed on their profits. Therefore organisations which distribute no assets to shareholders, nor have any owners whose wealth is thereby being increased, should clearly not be taxed as a corporation - irrespective of whether we view their non-profit activities to be beneficial or a pain in the ass. That way churches, Atheist Ireland, and the Vegetarian Society would stand on the same legal basis, irrespective of whether we agree or disagree with their agendas. That would be more consistent with a secular society.

    I would note that charities (religious or otherwise) do, contrary to urban legend, pay taxes such as VAT, and normal PRSI & tax where there are employees.


  • #17
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,291 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Good point. Obviously the financial position of the Catholic church (and other churches) would not be adversely affected by the change you suggest. But whose position would be changed? SFAIK something like a vegetarian society would already qualify as a charity.

    Are their any non-profit organisations engaged in activities which is currently not regarded as charitable, who are taxed under the present system but would be untaxed under the system you suggest? Off-hand I can't think of any.

    On reflection, the income/corporation tax exemption for religious bodies may be a bit of a red herring. Suppose there was no exemption; how much tax do you think the typical parish/diocese would pay? I somehow doubt that they make much profit.

    I suspect the real tax benefit lies not in any exemption from income/corporation tax, but in relief from property taxes - rates - on churches, schools, residentail homes, hospitals and other institutions of the kind that churches commonly run. But if you wanted to eliminate this benefit you couldn't just tax the properties with church-run institutions on them; you'd have to tax all schools, hospitals, meeting halls, etc.


  • #18
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Good point. Obviously the financial position of the Catholic church (and other churches) would not be adversely affected by the change you suggest. But whose position would be changed? SFAIK something like a vegetarian society would already qualify as a charity.

    Are their any non-profit organisations engaged in activities which is currently not regarded as charitable, who are taxed under the present system but would be untaxed under the system you suggest? Off-hand I can't think of any.

    Atheist Ireland? :D

    On reflection, the income/corporation tax exemption for religious bodies may be a bit of a red herring. Suppose there was no exemption; how much tax do you think the typical parish/diocese would pay? I somehow doubt that they make much profit.
    Zero profit in my experience!
    I suspect the real tax benefit lies not in any exemption from income/corporation tax, but in relief from property taxes - rates - on churches, schools, residentail homes, hospitals and other institutions of the kind that churches commonly run. But if you wanted to eliminate this benefit you couldn't just tax the properties with church-run institutions on them; you'd have to tax all schools, hospitals, meeting halls, etc

    That is an interesting one. As I understand it there is no automatic right to exemption to rates. You have to ask it as a favour from the relevant city council (although in my experience they have always granted it).


  • #19
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    The 'rest of you' don't pay corporation taxes unless you are running a corporation. So, Robin, can you stand with hand over heart and honestly tell us that Irish Skeptics pays corporation tax?
    Firstly, asking its members to hand over fifty or so euro per year rather than the 10% of salary that many protestant churches request, the ISS actually runs at a loss and costs the board members a reasonable amount of money to keep afloat.

    Secondly, running a series of entertaining lectures designed to help people think rationally is a public service which can reasonably be called "charitable". Propagating grandly delusional and completely irrational religious beliefs -- the point of my previous post -- is not.


  • #20
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Straight to the point then, Irish Skeptics aren't taxed?


  • #21
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote: »
    Secondly, running a series of entertaining lectures designed to help people think rationally is a public service which can reasonably be called "charitable". Propagating grandly delusional and completely irrational religious beliefs -- the point of my previous post -- is not.

    Ah, now we're getting down to it, aren't we?

    'Charitable' should be restricted to those ideologies with which Robin agrees, not those with which he disagrees.

    Thank you for letting the mask slip there. Those of us who seek a secular democracy where religious and non-religious are treated equally can only pray that people with your views never become a majority in Ireland.


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  • #22
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Straight to the point then, Irish Skeptics aren't taxed?

    Supported by the government then! Disgraceful! ;)


  • #23
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But there is a useful distinction to be maintained between the state paying for something [...] and the state not taxing something or someone, and I don't think the disucssion is going to be illuminated if we pretend the distinction doesn't exist.
    :confused: I didn't say the distinction doesn't exist.

    Though I probably should have spelled it out more clearly -- in accounting terms, granting a tax exemption to a corporation (or person) is equivalent to the state giving money to a corporation or person who does pay taxes (basically all of us, except, in this case, charities who perform a useful function in society and those who do not).


  • #24
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    Supported by the government then! Disgraceful!
    As above, that doesn't apply since the ISS runs at a considerable loss.

    FYI - the ISS's annual turnover would not match the take from a single pew, quite possibly even a single believer, in a single one of the kind of evangelical churches that construct vast buildings and carparks for themselves.


  • #25
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,291 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    Firstly, asking its members to hand over fifty or so euro per year rather than the 10% of salary that many protestant churches request, the ISS actually runs at a loss and costs the board members a reasonable amount of money to keep afloat.
    So when a Protestant church receives tithes from its supporters, that's income in the hands of the church on which the church should be taxed. But when Irish Skeptics receives subscriptions from its members, and a "reasonable amount of money" from its leading members, that's not the income of Irish Skeptics and no question of tax should arise.

    How do you arrive at that conclusion?


  • #26
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote: »
    As above, that doesn't apply since the ISS runs at a considerable loss.
    A loss? So you guys are in debt? Wow!

    FYI - the ISS's annual turnover would not match the take from a single pew, quite possibly even a single believer, in a single one of the kind of evangelical churches that construct vast buildings and carparks for themselves
    But the only distinction that you are making there is one of popular support. ISS enjoys very little support and commitment, whereas churches have more supporters who are prepared to commit more. So you see a small group that peddles your own ideology as a legitimate definition of charity, but one that enjoys the support of a larger group of people is somehow different.

    So now it's not enough to agree with Robin in order to be a legitimate charity, you have to be unpopular as well?

    The longer we continue this thread, the more I despair of Ireland ever becoming a secular democracy.


  • #27
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    no question of tax should arise.
    I think you must have missed the bit where I pointed out that the ISS runs at a loss.

    As a general principle of taxation, neither corporations nor people pay taxes when they lose money.


  • #28
    jhegarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,132 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    robindch wrote: »
    I think you must have missed the bit where I pointed out that the ISS runs at a loss.

    As a general principle of taxation, neither corporations nor people pay taxes when they lose money.

    So do you think the Church in Ireland makes a profit ?

    Every day there is another thread in this forum about falling mass attendance , and the Church dying out in Ireland.


  • #29
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    But the only distinction that you are making there is one of popular support.
    Not in the slightest. If you took the time to read what I wrote with your head rather than your heart, you'd probably understand the point I was making:
    robindch wrote:
    running a series of entertaining lectures designed to help people think rationally is a public service which can reasonably be called "charitable". Propagating grandly delusional and completely irrational religious beliefs -- the point of my previous post -- is not.
    I've bolded the point, lest you miss it again.
    PDN wrote: »
    The longer we continue this thread, the more I despair of Ireland ever becoming a secular democracy.
    The more I read of your wonderfully literate posts, the more intrigued I become that you seem incapable of comprehending very simple, direct, non-metaphorical English prose. If only the bible were a similarly closed book to you...!


  • #30
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    robindch wrote: »
    Firstly, asking its members to hand over fifty or so euro per year rather than the 10% of salary that many protestant churches request, the ISS actually runs at a loss and costs the board members a reasonable amount of money to keep afloat.
    jhegarty wrote: »
    So do you think the Church in Ireland makes a profit? [...] Every day there is another thread in this forum about falling mass attendance, and the Church dying out in Ireland.
    Sheesh.

    Is everybody drunk already?


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  • #31
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote: »
    I think you must have missed the bit where I pointed out that the ISS runs at a loss.

    As a general principle of taxation, neither corporations nor people pay taxes when they lose money.

    But does ISS lose money? If board members contribute a 'reasonable amount' to ensure expenses are covered then it would be breaking even, no?

    Which would put it in the same boat as virtually every Protestant Church in the country.
    I've bolded the point, lest you miss it again.
    I've already referred to that point - which has nothing (zilch, nada, zero) to do with your second point comparing the small amount handled by ISS to the larger amounts handled by even the smallest of churches.
    The more I read of your wonderfully literate posts, the more intrigued I become that you seem incapable of comprehending very simple, direct, non-metaphorical English prose. If only the bible were a similarly closed book to you...!
    No need to get snippy at me because you seem to be confused by your own posts. :)


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