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'Organ donors' without helmets

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,318 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    I did a face plant into a parked car when I was about 7 or 8. It was a crash during our streets mini race. There was only three of us. Messed myself up, plenty of hospital trips ensued. I wasn't wearing a helmet, yet I'm still here. A bit stupider, but here nonetheless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    Six years old, steep forest road, panicked, front brakes, over handlebar, faceplant, 2 front teeth pushed through gums into nose, no solid food for months. Parents, overcome with guilt made me wear a helemt for a few months, then back to normal. Helemt would not have helped. I still wear one, but would rather not, but then again, I spent 2 years visiting a loved one in rehab wards for the brain damaged so I do, just to cover myself as it were.


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,499 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Spent 4 days in hospital after crashing at 40kph on my commute a couple of years ago. Went over the handlebars. Plenty of road rash, but the head (and in particular the helmet) took the brunt of the impact.

    I was heavily concussed, and needed a skin graft around my eye - still can't remember what happened, but I do have a strong suspicion the helmet saved me from much more serious damage.

    Needless to say I always wear a helmet, but then again when cycling I'm always trying to go fast. It's a personal choice, and I'm certainly not for compulsion


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    40 kph is fast for a commuter! If that is your cycling style then it seems reasonable to wear a helmet that is fit for such purposes.

    Legally obliging Jo Public to wear a helmet for popping down to the shops is a bit OTT though, so IMO you are right to oppose compulsory helmet use.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭Captain Havoc


    Beasty is not just his name, it's his way of life.

    Wear helmet on road bike. Depends what mood I'm in if I wear one heading into town. Out of the few accidents I've had, one involved knocking my head I've a scar on my knee but that's all the permanent marks from cycling. I'd strongly oppose manditory use, there's sod all road deaths from cycling and I doubt those few could've been saved by a helmet.

    https://ormondelanguagetours.com

    Walking Tours of Kilkenny in English, French or German.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭manafana


    helmet saved me when i came down going downhill pretty fast, hit potholed part of road trying not go wide on downhill and down went flew over top onto my head and onto my elbow, my head was grand and helmet did its job, but my elbow wasnt so good and surgery the next day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,698 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Whatever about wearing a helmet on the road... Wearing one when off road should be mandatory!
    Having passed a couple of lads out Balinastoe way about to bike down one of the faster descents with no more than a woolly hat on, one slip and its lights out! Hard to get an ambulance up there... Idiots!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,997 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    The argument about helmets making injuries worse (referred to above) is usually concerned with their potential to increase rotational acceleration of the skull around the spine, resulting in diffuse axonal injuries (DAIs, the most debilitating type of brain injury) that might not happen otherwise, or might not be as severe. The potential of helmets to exacerbate DAIs is not universally accepted, but it is far from fanciful, since the effective diameter of the head is markedly increased by wearing a helmet.

    The bicycle helmet page on Wikipedia is quite good. It at least tells you who the major researchers are and what they've said:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,997 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    there's sod all road deaths from cycling and I doubt those few could've been saved by a helmet.

    I think this probably the most salient point. Cycling is not especially dangerous, and certainly not notably productive of head injuries. This canard about paramedics calling cyclists "organ donors" is not based in reality, as far as I know (and I'm pretty sure it was originally applied to motorcyclists). No emergency room sees very many cyclists with severe head injuries in any given year, because there are very few in total. They see far more pedestrians. According to that Wikipedia article, the proportion of injuries which are head injuries are roughly 30% for both cyclists and pedestrians. And there are a hell of a lot more pedestrians.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    I think this probably the most salient point. Cycling is not especially dangerous, and certainly not notably productive of head injuries. This canard about paramedics calling cyclists "organ donors" is not based in reality, as far as I know (and I'm pretty sure it was originally applied to motorcyclists). No emergency room sees very many cyclists with severe head injuries in any given year, because there are very few in total. They see far more pedestrians. According to that Wikipedia article, the proportion of injuries which are head injuries are roughly 30% for both cyclists and pedestrians. And there are a hell of a lot more pedestrians.




    We must have helmets for pedestrians NOW! Never too soon to start I say.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    Is it wrong to find the antics of this clearly suicidal cartoon infant funny? 'Cos I find them strangely hilarious, particularly that determined headbutt of the table. Anyone with a toddler will know that they routinely, and casually, try to top themselves in any of a number of ways, but there is something about the sheer determination of the child in this cartoon that puts real kids to shame. You just don't get commitment like that in the youth of today:

    T25hloXiVaXXXXXXXX_!!47692745.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    This has nothing directly to do with cycling but an Irish Times article entitled "Questions over helmet design raised by sport injuries study" does perhaps raise questions about the simplistic thinking that tends to surround debates around supposed safety equipment generally. Many people would likely assume that wearing a helmet during sport would make you safer but as the article discusses, this is not always the case (the study specifically raises questions about the design of hurling helmets). Certainly when it comes to discussion of mandatory helmet usage for cyclists, some of the loudest voices in favour of such a proposal typically are dismissive of any suggestion that helmets are not some kind of magic wand, but as the snippet below states for hurling helmets, that is a very simplistic assumption:
    The study was conducted some months before helmets became mandatory for those playing hurling.

    Of the 93 people who suffered facial injuries while involved in sports, just over one in five was wearing a helmet. Seven out of 10 of those playing hurling did not have facial protection.

    Worryingly, 63 per cent of those with facial injuries who were wearing a helmet sustained a “severe” injury, while only 48 per cent of those not wearing protective headgear sustained an injury of this nature.

    Those without helmets sustained more contusions and simple lacerations than those with the protective headgear. However, 19 per cent of those with helmets sustained complex facial lacerations compared with 16 per cent of those without facial protection.

    Players with helmets on were more likely to receive subluxation (partial fractures) and to lose teeth than those without. Those without helmets were more likely to fracture a tooth crown.

    “To me, the study suggests that there is a need to look at the design of helmets,” stressed Ms Byrne, who presented the findings at Sligo General Hospital’s annual research conference on Friday.

    The study found that almost one-third or 29 of those who sustained sports-related facial injuries suffered facial fractures. Ten of these occurred in people wearing helmets.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,212 ✭✭✭buffalo


    I always like it when a correspondent takes the words out of my mouth:
    A chara, – It seems each time a photo of a cyclist without a helmet appears in your paper some wit points out what to them is the obvious folly of doing so.

    Maureen Fallon tells us (March 4th) that her ambulance-driver friend refers to them as “organ donors”. Well, three more “organ donors” were pictured on page 6 that day, so I’ll save the wits the bother of commenting.

    I am a former Dublin cycle courier and a former bicycle mechanic, and I still use a bike. I have never worn a helmet. Contrary to popular belief, cycling is not dangerous, and Irish drivers are not homicidal lunatics.

    What Ms Fallon refers to as “basic safety equipment” comprises, in my experience, the skills and awareness inside your head; not some piece of plastic on it. – Is mise,

    EMMET MORDAUNT,

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2011/0309/1224291665231.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Undercover Elephant


    I wonder if the original letter writer's "friend in the ambulance service" was the same one whose ambulance carved me up on the Howth Road yesterday evening? On the hunt for organs, perhaps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,685 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    I wonder if the original letter writer's "friend in the ambulance service" was the same one whose ambulance carved me up on the Howth Road yesterday evening? On the hunt for organs, perhaps.

    cue Jaws music as any ambulance appears around the corner from now on
    :D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 717 ✭✭✭Mucco


    Yawn:
    A chara, – Emmet Mordaunt (former cycle courier) claims that, “contrary to popular belief, cycling is not dangerous” (March 9th) and on this basis, there is no need to wear a helmet when cycling. Contrary to his belief, 54 cyclists were killed in Ireland between 2005 and 2009; in the region of 3,000 were injured – many of these injuries were significant.

    Death rates while cycling are falling. This is probably due to increased safety awareness (including an increase in helmet wearing). I am a helmet-wearing cyclist, and consultant in emergency medicine at Mr Mordaunt’s local trauma centre. – Is mise,

    Dr BRENDAN McCANN

    MICGP MRCP FCEM,

    Waterford Regional Hospital,

    Waterford.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Idleater


    Mucco wrote: »
    Yawn:

    Total yawn.

    Reminds me a lot of the Simpsons episode about the bear patrol
    simpsons wrote:
    When a bear wanders down Evergreen Terrace, Quimby proposes tax rises to fund a new bear patrol. To distract people, he blames the taxes on illegal immigrants, and calls for the deportation of all illegal immigrants from Springfield.

    I hereby proclaim that Bicycle Helmets protect me from bear attacks. I shall now sleep soundly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 717 ✭✭✭Mucco


    Idleater wrote: »
    Total yawn.

    Reminds me a lot of the Simpsons episode about the bear patrol

    I hereby proclaim that Bicycle Helmets protect me from bear attacks. I shall now sleep soundly.

    I think he's going be this diagram, but conveniently ignoring the pedestrian figures - I wonder how many of them were wearing helmets?

    151089.JPG

    I prefer this graph:

    Safety_in_nos.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,997 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    The statistics quoted by the doctor sound ok, actually (cyclists make up about 2% of road deaths, which ties in quite closely with the proportion of journeys that are made by bikes). He's confirming that cycling is quite safe, unbeknownst to himself.



    As I said before, doctors really don't get statistics.

    Also, his assertion that increased helmet wearing is behind lower road deaths is just proof by assertion, which is another favourite of opinionated doctors.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    For all that I agree with the sentiments expressed by Emmet Mordaunt in his letter (i.e. I don't think that helmets are necessary to keep you safe), I think his response to the original ridiculous letter feeds the argument rather than dispels it. It seems like there are three schools of thought: a) helmets are essential to your safety; b) helmets are detrimental to your health; c) helmets can be a help but not not always. The first two schools of thought are often accompanied by horrified expressions and frothing at the mouth of their most ardent supporters. Those two groups will never see eye-to-eye and unfortunately their arguing tends to drown out voices from that third, and rational, school of thought. I don't necessarily think Mordaunt's letter actually falls into the second group, but people in the first group will interpret it as doing so I'd imagine.

    In reality I'd imagine that most people who actually cycle regularly fall into that third school of thought, me included. I cycled for years, including off-road, without a helmet and never incurred a serious injury despite quite a few falls (well okay, I landed on my face and employed my eyebrow as a rudimentary brake on the tarmac when cycling home from school as a kid, but a helmet would possibly have led to a worse outcome in that particular instance as it may have tilted/driven my lower face into the tarmac). I've seen people land on their heads and crack their helmet (= helmet win), I've seen people wearing helmets land on their face, literally kissing the ground, where the standard helmets give no protection (= helmet fail). I've also cycled for my most recent 15 years or so with a helmet, and not had a fall where my helmet actually came into play at all. Those are just my experiences and actually prove/disprove nothing but certainly convince me that the scaremongering attitude that helmets are essential to safety are nonsense.

    I'd actually find it hard to explain why I continue to wear a helmet each day, incidentally. I think the scaremongering is actually very effective at eating away at your own sense of reason, so at some subconscious level I think I find it hard to shake the learned "reasoning" that a helmet-less head is going to explode in a fall despite my common sense telling me that view is rubbish. If I were to really believe that my head is so fragile, I'd either wear a full-face helmet all of the time (something which the "helmets are ESSENTIAL" hand-wringing lobby consistently fail to suggest - do they really not care enough for our safety that they don't propose this, or are they actually aware of how close they already come to hysteria most of the time without pushing themselves further into the loony category?) or I'd simply not cycle. Part of my reason for wearing a helmet, I think, is that I still have various memories from many years back of falling head first onto ice covered tarmac and that sensation leaves a lasting memory - 'tis obviously a slightly hysterical memory though, as that has happened to me while walking too but I still don't wear a helmet when I go for a walk.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 209 ✭✭carthoris


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    The statistics quoted by the doctor sound ok, actually (cyclists make up about 2% of road deaths, which ties in quite closely with the proportion of journeys that are made by bikes). He's confirming that cycling is quite safe, unbeknownst to himself.

    Also, his assertion that increased helmet wearing is behind lower road deaths is just proof by assertion, which is another favourite of opinionated doctors.

    You are preaching to the choir - find some savages to teach your gospel to - put it into a letter and send it to the times. Please. :)

    tomasrojo wrote: »
    As I said before, doctors really don't get statistics.

    You would probably want to leave that bit out however :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,997 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    carthoris wrote: »
    You are preaching to the choir - find some savages to teach your gospel to - put it into a letter and send it to the times. Please. :)




    You would probably want to leave that bit out however :D
    That's the bit that's most likely to get a letter published!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,515 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Came across this today. The best bit is at the end.

    Audio only I'm afraid.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8600000/8600462.stm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,997 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Correspondence continues.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2011/0314/1224292061987.html
    Madam, – I’ve had 40-odd years of accident-free cycling. Two weeks ago I hit a pothole while avoiding another. My head slammed off the brick centre of the roundabout I was on.

    I have no doubt my helmet saved my life. I have no doubt that my high-visibility vest prevented cars from hitting me. It is highly irresponsible to make claims to the contrary. (March 9th). – Yours, etc,

    KAREN SHAW,
    Cloister Green,
    Blackrock,
    Co Dublin.

    Madam, – Dr Brendan McCann suggests that cycling is dangerous because 54 pedal cyclists were killed on Irish roads between 2005 and 2009. Some 977 pedestrians were killed over the same period: are helmets to be recommended for pedestrians? – Yours, etc,

    COLM CARROLL,
    Wapping,
    London,
    England.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,997 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Lumen wrote: »
    Came across this today. The best bit is at the end.

    Audio only I'm afraid.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8600000/8600462.stm
    You mean the bit about helmetless skiers in the future being as rare as cyclists braving rush-hour traffic without helmets?

    London did have a lot of helmet-wearing cyclists when I was last there, but I don't think they were quite the majority, and I assume that the number is highest there.

    40% helmet-wearing in Greater London, according to this:
    http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/uktrends.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 717 ✭✭✭Mucco


    tomasrojo wrote: »

    The figure of 977 is incorrect - it's actually about 320, but the point is the same, I suppose.

    M


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    doozerie wrote:
    I've also cycled for my most recent 15 years or so with a helmet, and not had a fall where my helmet actually came into play at all.

    I guess it was inevitable that this statement by me from an earlier post would anger the helmet gods. They greased up some LUAS rails on Friday evening, and contrived to put me into a zombie frame of mind, the combination of which had me lose my front tyre when crossing a rail and pile into the footpath. I would have just slid to a halt after a few metres if it hadn't been for the kerbing - once the bike hit that I was driven into the footpath itself. The brunt of the collision was taken by my (MTB) bar ends, my shoulder, my hand, and my head/helmet. The knock on my head was substantial enough, a couple of inches above my left temple. I was glad of my helmet but in reality I think what it saved me from was likely some lost skin+hair, a (bigger) bruise, and a worse headache, rather than certain death. As it is I just got a very small bruise where the inner part of the helmet hit my head - other than surface scratches though, the helmet itself appears to the eye as being undamaged which leaves me wondering exactly how hard a knock is required for the polystyrene to visibly compress to any extent whatsoever i.e. it raises that question to me of exactly how safe/useful this particular polystyrene shell is (in general, not just since this knock) - in a serious collision will it compress before my head does, or vice versa, I wonder.

    Of course, what this incident really highlights is the danger of existing footpaths. The feckin' things are solid, you know. Disgraceful. Poses serious risks to cyclists, pedestrians, etc. What we urgently need is a campaign to have footpaths made out of fluffy kittens. I feel a letter to the Irish Times coming on, armed as I am with the certain knowledge that I could have, like, died and stuff.

    Incidentally, one pedestrian stopped to give me a hand, which was very decent of him. Thought I noticed him casting hopeful eyes towards my liver though, possibly my kidneys too. Did no-one tell him that the bicycle helmet is the universal symbol of a non- organ donor?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,897 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    doozerie wrote: »
    Of course, what this incident really highlights is the danger of existing footpaths. The feckin' things are solid, you know. Disgraceful. Poses serious risks to cyclists, pedestrians, etc. What we urgently need is a campaign to have footpaths made out of fluffy kittens. I feel a letter to the Irish Times coming on, armed as I am with the certain knowledge that I could have, like, died and stuff.

    what we need



    excpet we'ed all be wrapped round lamposts

    can you imagine the rolling resistance on that road (although mtbing through bog would prob be similiar)

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭TinyExplosions


    doozerie wrote: »
    I think what it saved me from was likely some lost skin+hair, a (bigger) bruise, and a worse headache, rather than certain death.

    No no no, you have it all wrong, it was only the presence of a helmet that stopped you dying, 100% guaranteed and now you'll never talk to anyone stupid enough to not wear one from this day out :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    No no no, you have it all wrong, it was only the presence of a helmet that stopped you dying, 100% guaranteed and now you'll never talk to anyone stupid enough to not wear one from this day out :)

    Is this a trick? I mean, I can't possibly reply to this until you've confirmed whether or not you wear a helmet, and yet I have to reply to pose that question. My head hurts more now than it did after my fall (sorry my near death experience)...


This discussion has been closed.
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