Taking the dole instead of a job....

10-03-2011 11:09AM #1

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/workers-turn-down-euro28000-job-because-they-get-more-on-dole-2573644.html

Amazing eh?

Kinetic^ · 10-03-2011 12:30PM

I just hope they were reported to Social Welfare.:mad:

chillywilly · 10-03-2011 02:29PM

Great PR stunt on David Lawlors part, though.

Curry Addict · 10-03-2011 04:24PM

its a very low wage to be offering a service engineer. this employer is targeting budget employees at budget prices. as a service engineer myself ive earned 3 times the wage on offer, even in recession times. i dont get why this employer is crying about it after offering such a miserable salary.

DubTony · 10-03-2011 04:51PM

Personally, I find this all pretty hard to believe. The rate he's paying is probably below the average for that job. Now while I'm all in favour of getting the most for your euro, I've found that when you pay people a less than standard going rate for a job, you get people who don't give a sh*t, people who leave when the going gets tough, and a general attitude from an employee of "He's not giving me much for this job, so I'm not going to give much in return".

He claims to have had 300 CVs and he offered the job to 2 people who come from other countries. Smells of the "cheap immigrant" option to me.

"He was in a situation where no one would give him a job. But I figured that I would be able to manage the situation because I work very closely with my employees."
Are you serious? Why the hell would anyone hire this guy? Only one reason in my opinion. He's going to be cheap.

rolion · 10-03-2011 08:36PM

ignoring the masked advertising to his business and market !why quote the full trade name,business,names and so on !?? ...i just don't get why he quoted the two guys only ...

where are 'our locals' ? they weren't even show up for the interview ??? i thought that non-nationals doesn't have the right to work here!

the Filipino guy had the best interview out of 300 ??? what kind of CVs he received ? from primary school ???

who is behind this action ? that is the big Q here !!! get one against other ?
racism ? discrimination ???

why is he quoting nixers and top of their dole ?? does he knows something that the Department doesn't know !?? Can he proves his affirmation !??

i wanna see an NGO bringing him to court for discrimation...that will be nice one ...nice PR feedback,360 degrees !!

bbam · 10-03-2011 08:56PM

This is just an example of good PR and twisting the truth...
David Lawlor was on Mat Cooper thisevening and he said that the second guy he offered the position to had been out of work and applying for jobs - he'd only got 3 interviews in 2 years of jobhunting. How rubbish must he or his CV be. It would seem they are looking to the bottom of the pile of CV's in order to get the cheapest applicants, no wonder they get applicants with the cheapest morals.

No doubt there are people out there who would prefer be on the scratcher... There are however far more genuine people out there who would take a job and get off social welfare..

I'd say that this story tells more about his hiring policy than the morals of the unemployed in Ireland..

Curry Addict · 10-03-2011 09:01PM

agreed. its annoying to read this, as one of the 300 who applied for this job!

this is really really bad reporting at its worst, totally nieve? and an insult to hard working people stuck on the dole like me. it looks like a blatant media push to suppress the people who are stuck without jobs simply because there are very few in some sectors and push the government to cut benefits. its abuse of power and makes me sick.

im home grown, ive a degree in engineering and 15 years experience in a higher level field and would be happy to get an interview and earn a few bob tbh.
i worked my way up to 75k+ before recent redundancy. i dont quote salary in cv or go there at all so that isnt a deterrant. I didnt get considered for interview by this guy even tho this job would be a stroll in the park for me.
pity i didnt hear this live and ring in.

10-03-2011 10:36PM

Curry perhaps you should point it out to a radio show so if it is a blatant PR stunt. Im amazed your not even getting an interview and this guy is moaning about not being able to fill the position!

Im doing some business in the philippines at the moment - I was telling my partner here a few years ago about our social welfare in ireland. He didnt actually believe me that the government gave out free money, let alone so much of it! Said nobody in his country would work if they were getting a similar amount relative to the phils. Theres a big cultural difference in how people think of social welfare in different countries. Perhaps the government should be factoring this into their dole payments. Not pick and choose because someones foreign, but at least they should have built up some tax credits before they can be eligible, otherwise what is enough to get by for an Irish person might be the holy grail for a poor immigrant!

Chet Zar · 10-03-2011 10:37PM

Curry Addict wrote: »

agreed. its annoying to read this, as one of the 300 who applied for this job!

this is really really bad reporting at its worst, totally nieve? and an insult to hard working people stuck on the dole like me. it looks like a blatant media push to suppress the people who are stuck without jobs simply because there are very few in some sectors and push the government to cut benefits. its abuse of power and makes me sick.

im home grown, ive a degree in engineering and 15 years experience in a higher level field and would be happy to get an interview and earn a few bob tbh.
i worked my way up to 75k+ before recent redundancy. i dont quote salary in cv or go there at all so that isnt a deterrant. I didnt get considered for interview by this guy even tho this job would be a stroll in the park for me.
pity i didnt hear this live and ring in.

It's a typical Indo story - throw out a hook of a headline and reel them in, shaping the story as you go!

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 11-03-2011 02:29AM

Actually I had the same experience a few years ago (2008). A guy who was to pack boxes in the warehouse, didn't have good English and was on €11 per hour. On his 3rd day I gave him the morning off to go and meet his social welfare office who advised him he'd been on the dole for 18 months and in 6 months time he's be able to get his wage PLUS 70% of his welfare for the first year, 50% in the next year and 30% in the third year (Back to Work allowance). He was advised to not return to work that afternoon by his welfare officer and hold out till he could reached the 24 month payoff.

What really pissed me off was back then every set of hands was crucial, the guy left us high and dry. Ofcourse he offered to come back in 6 months... as far as I know he's still out of the workforce today and the truth is it's not his fault its the system we've set up - It doesn't encourage people to work. This guy really wanted to work and do good by his family!

Getting off the dole for a weeks work means you might have hassle getting back on it. Everyone should be allowed work, even for a few hours, and the dole should be flexible enough to allow them work and benefit from it. It would help get the country back on track.

Obviously my example is completely different to the one in the article as the job they we're looking required qualifications and a specialized person. It does sound like he possibly was underpaying the applicants in the article and i'm definitely not condoning underpaying people for their skill set.

However I have seen this type of rationalization before, job hunter is keen to get job for ego as they have been unemployed for too long. Decides she/he will commute anywhere to get work. Assuming their dole is 200 per week, they work this out as €40 per working day and for this example lets assume an unskilled job at 10 euro per hour to keep it round, for 7.5 hours per day (9-5.30 with a lunch break). So they would make €75 per day. In their minds this is only €35 per day as they got the other money for doing nothing. Here's where it gets messy. €10 euro for petrol to work, have to buy roll for breakfast and lunch for €10. So then the decide the only really make €15 extra a day, which they equate to €2 an hour and change their mind about accepting the job. This also happens at €15 etc, depending on where they were before in the pay scale. Employers who are stretched for time and everything else in this economy get very frustrated as they turned down other serious contenders. Hiring is a very time consuming and serious undertaking for an employer so I do understand the frustration of the guy in the article and also that of the others that applied / job seekers who would have loved the job.

Things have changed a lot lately, people are more keen to work and getting any job is better than not having one, as at least if your in a company so you can add value and work your way up. But the system still sucks and needs to be overhauled.

11-03-2011 09:59AM

Like you said Ronan....no creative thinking in these Departments.
There is too much red tape involved with everything.

This guy was looking for a news hook for advertising.

ssbob · 11-03-2011 10:06AM

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

Getting off the dole for a weeks work means you might have hassle getting back on it. Everyone should be allowed work, even for a few hours, and the dole should be flexible enough to allow them work and benefit from it. It would help get the country back on track.

Hi Ronan,

While I agree with most of your points I have to disagree with the above statement. I know quite a few people who have got work for 2/3 days per week or maybe a full week then back on the dole and the social welfare department have only been too happy to facilitate this.

Yes we need to overhaul our welfare system and attitude towards it including foxers on the side.

My own proposal would be a "Universal Social Card" whereby everyone has one and this holds your information like your PPS number etc thereby eliminating fraud etc......

What do people think is the best way to tackle this?

EarlERizer · 11-03-2011 11:57AM

Curry Addict wrote: »

agreed. its annoying to read this, as one of the 300 who applied for this job!

this is really really bad reporting at its worst, totally nieve? and an insult to hard working people stuck on the dole like me. it looks like a blatant media push to suppress the people who are stuck without jobs simply because there are very few in some sectors and push the government to cut benefits. its abuse of power and makes me sick.

Couldn't agree more,well said.

I would love to know what the exact job spec was, he states it's a job in maintenance , thats a bit of a general term and implies a low skill set which inturn provokes the notion that a 28k salary is by and large an attractive package that would have thousands on the dole queueing round the block for an interveiw.

If indeed he's looking for a skilled engineer who has spent years in the field and has all the qualifications then the guy needs to rethink his miser mentality and pay good rates for good skills.

The only thing I can take from reading that "report" is it's a blatant swipe at the unemployed and a politically charged propoganda stunt aimed at making almost 500k people feel ashamed to be on the social welfare seeking benefits when clearly there are jobs out there to be got, it's a massive distortion of truth.

I have been unemployed since April last year, like others here,and let me tell you,getting to the interveiw stage is an achievment these days, i've only had 2 in 12 months,the most recent been last week. I have applied for several positions in that time, some on par with my level some below as at this stage I just want to be back in gainful employment of some sort.

It seems to me that there is a concentrated effort by employer's ,the government and the welfare system to get people working at as low a cost to all.

Deleted User wrote: »

Im doing some business in the philippines at the moment - I was telling my partner here a few years ago about our social welfare in ireland. He didnt actually believe me that the government gave out free money, let alone so much of it! Said nobody in his country would work if they were getting a similar amount relative to the phils. Theres a big cultural difference in how people think of social welfare in different countries. Perhaps the government should be factoring this into their dole payments. Not pick and choose because someones foreign, but at least they should have built up some tax credits before they can be eligible, otherwise what is enough to get by for an Irish person might be the holy grail for a poor immigrant!

Are you that detached from it all? We have had job seekers cut to €188 pw and minimum wage cut to €7.65 ph, I'd like one of the businessmen / business owners contributing to this thread to tell me if they could get by on either in a week? giving the cost of living and expenses, wheter single or married with children.

There are a lot of tight fisted Employers out there favouring the cheaper option and I wont beat around the bush here, I mean the cheap migrant option! I'd assume their thinking is less outlay which is a fair enough point but what I dont think many of them give thought to is the fact that the majority of migrant workers send the bulk of money they earn out of the country which must be weakening the economy here?

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

Actually I had the same experience a few years ago (2008). A guy who was to pack boxes in the warehouse, didn't have good English and was on €11 per hour. On his 3rd day I gave him the morning off to go and meet his social welfare office who advised him he'd been on the dole for 18 months and in 6 months time he's be able to get his wage PLUS 70% of his welfare for the first year, 50% in the next year and 30% in the third year (Back to Work allowance). He was advised to not return to work that afternoon by his welfare officer and hold out till he could reached the 24 month payoff.

However I have seen this type of rationalization before, job hunter is keen to get job for ego as they have been unemployed for too long. Decides she/he will commute anywhere to get work. Assuming their dole is 200 per week, they work this out as €40 per working day and for this example lets assume an unskilled job at 10 euro per hour to keep it round, for 7.5 hours per day (9-5.30 with a lunch break). So they would make €75 per day. In their minds this is only €35 per day as they got the other money for doing nothing. Here's where it gets messy. €10 euro for petrol to work, have to buy roll for breakfast and lunch for €10. So then the decide the only really make €15 extra a day, which they equate to €2 an hour and change their mind about accepting the job. This also happens at €15 etc, depending on where they were before in the pay scale. Employers who are stretched for time and everything else in this economy get very frustrated as they turned down other serious contenders. Hiring is a very time consuming and serious undertaking for an employer so I do understand the frustration of the guy in the article and also that of the others that applied / job seekers who would have loved the job.

Things have changed a lot lately, people are more keen to work and getting any job is better than not having one, as at least if your in a company so you can add value and work your way up. But the system still sucks and needs to be overhauled.

My heart bleeds for you, and I envy the guy, I'd love to know who he had advising him in the welfare office as I've been banging my head against a wall trying to get any kind of help from them (seperated father of 2 still paying mortgage on house i no longer live in and currently on job seekers €188 pw)

All I (and other decent folk trying to get off the dole) want, is an decent days pay for a decent days work that befits the role and is in line with the cost of living.

Unfortunately we live in a time (and Country) where it's all about making as much money as you can for as little a cost as it takes.

We're been sold (and cattle prodded) into slavery!

Curry Addict · 11-03-2011 01:08PM

i just spoke to edel kennedy the jurnalist who wrote the article. i gave my point of view and pointed out all the issues in the article and the frustration it can cause people like me.
she came across very nice and understanding. took my details and may get back to me. i guess it probably wont be the kind of article that sells papers, so i wont hold me breath, i cant help being cynical about it.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 11-03-2011 02:10PM

ssbob wrote: »

Hi Ronan,

What do people think is the best way to tackle this?

As I said it's getting better, but still not where it needs to be. I remember some of our temps taking 2/3 weeks to get back on the dole after the Halloween period, which in my mind is totally unacceptable.

My suggestion is to create an online platform (it would be since I'm that way inclined), which allows people to manage their own welfare. If they get offered even two days / two weeks work to cover someone's sick leave they could then log into the system, sign off for the two days the employer logs in and verifies that they have hired the person for two days at X wage and then the system calculates a deduction of the dole for those two days which is a fair reflection of the wage. This could be implemented with absolutely no bureaucracy if the right people were involved. Obviously then it would be easy to have methods of not allowing employers to over register temps when they clearly have enough work for full time positions so this even benefits the gov.

Another right to work they should implement in my opinion is if someone is on the maximum wage for a lower tax rate and works over time they should be allowed earn reasonable money. I've had instances where my staff have worked through a weekend to catch up on work load and in their payslip they we're bumped into the higher brackets so the overtime realised payment was almost 90% taxed as they fell in the chasim. Needless to say, that person has no monetary incentive to ever work overtime ever again. So it's only their good nature that makes them continue to do it - and this is simply disgraceful on the govs part (Obviously we do our bit to make it work out reasonably).

EarlERizer, While I do appreciate your frustration and was not posting so you could in any way feel sorry for me, you may have missed the point. I don't think most employers have a problem paying decent wages for decent value add but the system is bad for both job seekers and employees. I own a business in India and Ironically we outsource a lot of work to our Irish office at the moment for the Indian subsidiary, as well as having staff in our Delhi office. Ireland is a highly skilled work force.

But in 2008 when we were a tiny business we we're literally told by temp agencies that almost no Irish we're interested in (applied for) working in a warehouse position. In Oct 2010 we had to hire THREE temp agencies to fill our positions because they couldn't find suitable candidates who would work for short stretches, due to the on dole off dole perceived risk, which they eventually did with some incredibly talented people. But there was this issue of a short time job not being worth their while. In 2011 I think this will probably disappear.

ssbob · 11-03-2011 02:25PM

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

As I said it's getting better, but still not where it needs to be. I remember some of our temps taking 2/3 weeks to get back on the dole after the Halloween period, which in my mind is totally unacceptable.

My suggestion is to create an online platform (it would be since I'm that way inclined), which allows people to manage their own welfare. If they get offered even two days / two weeks work to cover someone's sick leave they could then log into the system, sign off for the two days the employer logs in and verifies that they have hired the person for two days at X wage and then the system calculates a deduction of the dole for those two days which is a fair reflection of the wage. This could be implemented with absolutely no bureaucracy if the right people were involved. Obviously then it would be easy to have methods of not allowing employers to over register temps when they clearly have enough work for full time positions so this even benefits the gov.

Another right to work they should implement in my opinion is if someone is on the maximum wage for a lower tax rate and works over time they should be allowed earn reasonable money. I've had instances where my staff have worked through a weekend to catch up on work load and in their payslip they we're bumped into the higher brackets so the overtime realised payment was almost 90% taxed as they fell in the chasim. Needless to say, that person has no monetary incentive to ever work overtime ever again. So it's only their good nature that makes them continue to do it - and this is simply disgraceful on the govs part (Obviously we do our bit to make it work out reasonably).

I think the idea of an online welfare system including my idea of one social card for everybody would work but would obviously need the right backing. Everybody has their unique PPS number therefore it should be very easy to set up seeing as all these PPS numbers are already on the system.

The revenue will have to start proactively working with the social welfare departement though and their systems will have to be interlinked.

The point you make about the employee working overtime is just the facts of life.......there has to be a cut off somewhere, I mean where do you draw the line? If I were you I would offer your employees time in lieu when you go back into a quieter period and they may have built up an extra 2/3 days of wages. You are also entitled to give your employees a once off "One4All" gift voucher in any given year(up to €250 in value) instead of a bonus which is exempt from BIK or employers PRSI.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 11-03-2011 02:35PM

ssbob wrote: »

The point you make about the employee working overtime is just the facts of life.......there has to be a cut off somewhere, I mean where do you draw the line?

Well if I was the gov I'd create a simple rule saying anyone in the chasm would realise 50% of their earnings. Considering most people avoiding ending up there it would be free money for the gov and overall boost income (slightly) and increase the countries productivity. Ireland's work force was once championed on being productive so why have barriers to this.

ssbob · 11-03-2011 03:07PM

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

Well if I was the gov I'd create a simple rule saying anyone in the chasm would realise 50% of their earnings. Considering most people avoiding ending up there it would be free money for the gov and overall boost income (slightly) and increase the countries productivity. Ireland's work force was once championed on being productive so why have barriers to this.

Well actually your point is flawed because the marginal rate of tax is 52% so that is the maximum amount of tax & deductions you can pay on any earnings so when you move into the higher bracket you start paying 52cent in every Euro.

Can you give me a worked example of somebody paying 90% tax?(Just to let you know I am an accountant so I do know what I am talking about)

11-03-2011 03:19PM

EarlERizer wrote: »

Are you that detached from it all? We have had job seekers cut to €188 pw and minimum wage cut to €7.65 ph, I'd like one of the businessmen / business owners contributing to this thread to tell me if they could get by on either in a week? giving the cost of living and expenses, wheter single or married with children.

You misunderstood. To a guy in the philippines who earns 5-8 euro per day working a 12 hour shift, the notion that he can get double his months salary per week living in Ireland is fantastic. I know very well the cost of living in Ireland, but a lot of immigrants wouldnt.

I have a local contractor doing some work for me and his site licensed structural engineer gets 450 pesos per day which is about 7.50euro.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 11-03-2011 03:23PM

I think it's more about PRSI chasms - just looked it up briefly there and it was 142 extra taxed on a 200 amount - so I was exaggerating but still 71% seems insanely high.

EarlERizer · 11-03-2011 07:19PM

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

EarlERizer, While I do appreciate your frustration and was not posting so you could in any way feel sorry for me, you may have missed the point. I don't think most employers have a problem paying decent wages for decent value add but the system is bad for both job seekers and employees. I own a business in India and Ironically we outsource a lot of work to our Irish office at the moment for the Indian subsidiary, as well as having staff in our Delhi office. Ireland is a highly skilled work force.

But in 2008 when we were a tiny business we we're literally told by temp agencies that almost no Irish we're interested in (applied for) working in a warehouse position. In Oct 2010 we had to hire THREE temp agencies to fill our positions because they couldn't find suitable candidates who would work for short stretches, due to the on dole off dole perceived risk, which they eventually did with some incredibly talented people. But there was this issue of a short time job not being worth their while. In 2011 I think this will probably disappear.

Hi Ronan , thanks for the feedback,I want to apologise for my flipant "my hearts bleeds" comment, it was said tongue in cheek,your right, I am frustrated,extremely so, I was frustrated whilst in employment as I could see what was coming and how it was been "handled" by my employers (a large well known Irish (?) company).
Been on the lower rungs of managment within the company I was privvy to higher managments attitudes and present at meetings were decisions were made in how 'best' to continue etc,some of which left a bad taste in my mouth (and, possibly to my detriment as I spoke up).
Part of my role was dealing with a certain recruitment agency,I was very friendly with one of their staff who quite matter of factly told me that agencies really only deal with the cheaper foreign workers for the type of roles we had in the warehouse as companies were only willing to pay the bare minimum and it was better for them too.
Don't get me wrong, some of the migrant lads I had were good solid workers,most in fact,but their command of English was very minimal which led to allsorts of headaches for me,the production teams etc,another headache I had on a daily basis was dealing with haulage drivers (again the majority been foreign (working for Irish hauliers) with little to no command of English) in regard to inbound freight moreso than outbound.
I can sympathise with your plight in trying to fill short term roles and the attitude of people not wanting to sign off for a few weeks/months only to go through the 'hoop jumping' of signing back on, I can also sympathise with the worker not wanting to go through said process prefering to hold out until something more permanant comes up.
Dealing with the Department of Social Welfare is a frustrating exercise, It took me the best part of 3-4 weeks before I say my first 'payment', not to mention the way your made to feel (atleast in my experience in my local office).
I do agree with alot of what you have said,and I like the idea you mentioned re: an online platform, I can see the benefits (forgive the pun) of such a scheme, and I can take from your writings that you value a good worker over a cheap worker,however,I appreciate you as a businessman (and others) want to operate at as best a cost as possible.
I don't agree with your belief that most employers dont have a problem with paying decent wages,evidence of which can be seen in the link in the initial post (subject to determination of actual role of vacancy) and also daily in situations vacant columns/websites where the 'going rates' for certain roles has fallen dramatically in recent times.
The fact is this, the pay structure in this country has fallen whilst the cost of living has risen,people are trying to get by working for less to pay out more and it just cant be sustained until there is a balancing of the scales,the answer is not in a cheap migrant workforce (reasons for which I've said before) nor in a cheap Irish workforce if it's not in line with the cost of living.

Deleted User wrote: »

EarlERizer wrote: »

Are you that detached from it all? We have had job seekers cut to €188 pw and minimum wage cut to €7.65 ph, I'd like one of the businessmen / business owners contributing to this thread to tell me if they could get by on either in a week? giving the cost of living and expenses, wheter single or married with children.

You misunderstood. To a guy in the philippines who earns 5-8 euro per day working a 12 hour shift, the notion that he can get double his months salary per week living in Ireland is fantastic. I know very well the cost of living in Ireland, but a lot of immigrants wouldnt.

I have a local contractor doing some work for me and his site licensed structural engineer gets 450 pesos per day which is about 7.50euro.

Hi El Rifle, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your point and I hope you don't misunderstand any I have tried to make here,granted ,to a Philipino our minimum wage must seems like a kings ransom,jaysus at the rate you qoute above the dole is a princely sum, but (as flipant as this is going to sound) I'm Irish and this economy is the one I live in and want to get by in and to me it's abysmal , the figures you qoute are staggering, it makes me think 1) what is the cost of living like in the Philipines and 2)if thats the rate for a structural engineer,what must the labourer be earning?

Can I be so bold as to ask, what prompted you to set up business there as opposed to here? was it the high rates here versus the cheap labour costs there?or was it another strategy? location,infrastructure,resources etc?

Just while i'm on,another thing that struck me,when I was laid off I went and registered with FAS whilst sorting out the socail welfare stuff,I asked about any courses I could avail of whilst job seeking and was told I'd be best speaking to the local enterprise groups to see if they had any courses as I wasn't unemployed long enough to qualify for anything they would have!,apparently the welfare wouldnt agree to it unless I was 'long term' unemployed!!!
I ask you,were is the incentive in that that they raved about to get people off the dole queues and into jobs?
It's my belief with the current state of affairs that it's all alot murkier than just no money,no resources, recession.

Myself, I hope to be my own boss one day,I've alot to learn in regard to commerce and the runnings of 'a business',it will be a small company of 1 ,just me and my camera(s) ,as businessmen (Rifle & Ronan) do you recommend it in todays business world? or am I better off hoping to get back to 'working for the man'?

Thanks all ,and sorry for the long winded post

11-03-2011 11:05PM

I don't believe I am actually going to agree with that People Before Profit guy with three names (so bloody pretentious...I thought it was only women who insist on inserting their maiden names into their name).

He said what I have thought for a long time.....people on the dole I am sure would like to up experience in their chosen field.
Why not pay a bit more to work a day a week helping a small business who could do with the benifit of experience.

Accountants, marketing people, web developers....a lot of talent out there.

Kent Brockman · 11-03-2011 11:55PM

I currently know of several contractors (a roofer, a plasterer and a chap that does Pvc windows and doors to name a few) who sometimes require extra help for certain jobs.
They have regular experienced guys (who are on the dole)who they call on and pay cash, when they need them. This is wrong..BUT there does not seem to be a system in place to make this official AND beneficial to both parties.

The contractors in question are small time sole-traders and don't want to become employers with all the legal stuff, H&s, employers prsi, holiday pay etc.

It obviously suits the guys getting the part time work and cash and they would be reluctant to become 'official' as the work is not always reliable/regular.

12-03-2011 12:46AM

Hi Earl

I understand your frustrations indeed. I can remember years ago doing the daily routine of going around the job websites and not getting interviews for jobs I knew I would be great at. Was over about 3 months, and the frustration of it actually led me to start commission only sales. I channelled all the knock backs and used it as motivation to prove 'them' wrong.

Yep the figures over here are extraordinary. The labourers get about 300 pesos per day or a fiver. Granted they do live on site in a barracks and get breakfast lunch and dinner for 100 pesos.
I chose here because in this specific area of Boracay Im in, a good hotel room rents for 13,500 peso a night (over 220 euro), yet the labour cost is low so I can sell the units at relatively cheap price. So overall it means for an investor they can make an excellent ROI renting with a high rent and low purchase price. Based around sales really. The paradise location was of course another factor. But for the age I was at the time 27 it was an ambitious project, one I dont think I could have done in Ireland. The best pieces of development land were massively overvalued and dominated by the big players at the time. A mature market as opposed to a developing one.

On a side note, over the last few years I was trying to figure out a way to get loyalty from workers here. Paying them up to 50% more then the standard rate, giving them extra days off and being very flexible. But 90% of them quit after a few months despite the fact they wont get that higher wage anywhere else, and have a pretty straightforward work day. Just shows the different mentality, there is a not much of a desire to work. So given all of that you can see what the concept of earning the Irish dole would be to one of those guys if he could manage to get here - or a nurse for that matter who would be stuck doing 30 hour shifts in an underfunded gov hospital for peanuts.

I think if your going to start something yourself you need to be inspired to do so. I usually get that from new interests/hobbies, books or even talking to my friends about their hobbies. The more things you like and can enjoy, the more business ideas you will have.
As far as working for the man

, when you get your next interview maybe try a different approach. Mightnt work with a HR person but if the boss is interviewing you give him/her a stirring speech about how he wont find someone with a better, more determined attitude then you. That you will do whatever it takes and show him it would be a mistake not to hire you. Win the job there and then as opposed to letting him dictate the decision. Make yourself a 'must hire' person. I've come to believe in the last few years that attitude is the most important thing when Im hiring, because everything else can be trained. Not everyone thinks like that but it might just get you in the door.

All the negativity you feel, get it all channelled into a positive drive. Watch motivational films - Rudy is my favourite, read books by successful businessmen that stuff helps a lot.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan · 12-03-2011 03:39PM

EarlERizer wrote: »

Myself, I hope to be my own boss one day,I've alot to learn in regard to commerce and the runnings of 'a business',it will be a small company of 1 ,just me and my camera(s) ,as businessmen (Rifle & Ronan) do you recommend it in todays business world? or am I better off hoping to get back to 'working for the man'?

I honestly believe there has never ever been a better climate to start a business than the one we are in at the moment. If you have the motivation it's definitely worth going for it and although its hard work its extremely rewarding.

13-03-2011 10:48AM

I have to agree.

Like it or not, this is Irelands reset button and there is a lot of fresh opportunities for people in many different fields.

rolion · 14-03-2011 10:07AM

hi,
just found this somewhere...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12722932

"Tesco is looking in Slovakia to fill UK job vacancies because of a lack of interest locally, it has said.

The supermarket giant said the measure was a last resort when positions could not be filled within the community.

Denying it was an attempt to find cheap labour, it said all recruits were paid the same, regardless of origin."
Interesting...taking in consideration that the system here is more or less same like there.

Draco · 14-03-2011 10:16AM

I'm not one for believing anything in the Indo so I wrote a (basic) calculator to see if there was any truth. If my numbers are right, it looks like you are better off on the dole if you've a wife, a kid and renting than taking a job for 28K. It's insane.

ssbob · 14-03-2011 10:39AM

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

I think it's more about PRSI chasms - just looked it up briefly there and it was 142 extra taxed on a 200 amount - so I was exaggerating but still 71% seems insanely high.

Hi Ronan, 71% still seems ridiculously high. I would like to see some numbers to believe those figures or maybe have your payroll manager/accountant double check these figures again? Like I said 52% is the marginal rate of tax which includes PRSI and USC.

EarlERizer · 14-03-2011 10:46AM

Draco wrote: »

I'm not one for believing anything in the Indo so I wrote a (basic) calculator to see if there was any truth. If my numbers are right, it looks like you are better off on the dole if you've a wife, a kid and renting than taking a job for 28K. It's insane.

Where did you get the figure €342.60 p/w from? and this before a rent allowance supplement??

I can tell you from my experience,your no better on the dole than in a minimum wage job, however right now i'd take the minimum wage job just to get back into the workforce.

My situation at present, currently unemployed,seperated father of 2,still paying a mortgage (currently interest only for a 12 month period),my total entitlement according to Dept of Social Welfare is €188 Job Seekers 'Benefit' (where the benefit is i do not know),I get NOTHING extra for been a father of 2 , I get NOTHING extra by way of mortgage relief, I get NOTHING extra in any regard, thats it. €188 p/w......I can't even get help in relation to housing as i'm a mortgage holder (even though i no longer live there and am currently effectively 'homeless')

I have gone 'cap in hand' to speak with them,been referred to the relieving officer (more humiliation) and still i'm told that €188 is all i am entitled too......oh, and the suggestion that "you should go talk to MABS and the SVP if your finding things difficult" and in another conversation "give up the house" .....and the cherry .... I've just received a letter of notification that my Job seekers 'benefit' is due to end (6 weeks time) and should i wish to claim Job Seekers 'allowance' I have to reapply and be means tested!!!

It's gotten to the point where I wish I had chosen a career as a 'lifetime scrounger' grabbed the first girl to come along and continue to churn out kids, get a house from social housing and sit back scratching my nads as the cash rolled in!!!.

Work from the time you leave school,pay your dues (taxes etc),get the mortgage,2.4 family,mow the lawn,work & pay bills and get slapped in the face when your down on your luck!.....The system is not flawed,it's a fookin disgrace!!!

Taking the dole instead of a job....

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