The horse fair farce

Laminations · 07-03-2011 11:11am #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0307/breaking16.html

The horse market in Smithfield descended into chaos and violence, giving even more reasons for it to be shut down.

The council has for more than a decade sought the closure of the fair, but it has been blocked by an ancient market right to hold sales on the land, asserted by horse traders.

How can a market right be cited as reason to keep it open where it is?

The annual market should be shut down immediately, and if it ever is allowed return it should be to a field down the country,

Licencing for horse ownership needs to be brought in, which takes into account the capability of the owner to care for the horse and the facilities they have. No horses should be raised on housing estates or left in open fields with no shelter and stables. Looking after a horse is expensive, if you can't afford to do it properly, you can't afford a horse. We cannot just allow horse ownership as a recognition and acceptance of culture. Some aspects of a culture are unacceptable in a civilised society

Horse trading should be monitored and taxed, like most other things.

“It was a terrible thing that happened here today, but it never happened before, and a small group shouldn’t be allowed spoil things for everyone.”

If you are serious about not letting a small groupp ruin it for all then cooperate with the gardai and name every individual pictured with a bat or bar so they can be questioned by the gardai. Gatherings cannot continue to be allowed if this 'small group' isn't managed out, sidelined, made known to gardai and dissociated in more than words from the larger group.

Humans eh! · 07-03-2011 11:48am

Laminations wrote: »

Licencing for horse ownership needs to be brought in, which takes into account the capability of the owner to care for the horse and the facilities they have. No horses should be raised on housing estates or left in open fields with no shelter and stables. Looking after a horse is expensive, if you can't afford to do it properly, you can't afford a horse. We cannot just allow horse ownership as a recognition and acceptance of culture. Some aspects of a culture are unacceptable in a civilised society

Horse trading should be monitored and taxed, like most other things.

MODS, please feel free to move this post to somewhere more appropiate.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have 5 acres of (bad) land attached to my rural cottage and for a year have let a friend of a friend keep two horses on it for a nominal fee. This individual never once came to check on them and left a few quid in a local shop for my troubles. Last winter which was extremely, severe he never bothered with them and hasn't paid me for food which I buy (Haylage & Coolmix) due to no grass in the field.

He cannot be contacted now, (rumour is he fecked off to England) and has effectively abandoned the horses and I have assumed full responsibility for their welfare. I feed and take care of them as an animal lover but seem to have no legal rights over them or have a say in their welfare. He could turn up any time and cart them off to 'Smithfield' or some other well regulated paragon of animal welfare, which fills me with horror. I am very fond of them and they are such sweet trusting creatures and will see no harm come to them and do not want them to end up in a housing estate in Dublin for forty quid apiece.

I don't mind at all (although the expense is not ideal) but what was a real eye opener for me was the attitude of people when they hear that I have assumed responsibility for the horses.
They range from the "let them loose into another farmers field at night", to "just shoot the bas***ds", and the unbelievably common, "F**k them let them starve", "Not your problem etc. etc.".

It beggars belief and doesn't bode well for the future of the country because it seems that the love of money has conquered any notions or veneer of compassion or empathy for animals / environment etc. More concerned with Kna****r rights than real actual suffering.
You need a licence for a dog and yet scumbags 'trade' these large animals without regulation or empathy only concerned with what they are worth

Of course this being Ireland (here's the political bit) a tax of some kind will be introduced that will only be enforced upon honest people who do their best for their animals and be ignored and unenforced upon those who prefer to live off and simultaneously outside society.

It makes me sad.
Angry sad. :mad:

Laminations · 07-03-2011 12:07pm

Humans eh! wrote: »

Of course this being Ireland (here's the political bit) a tax of some kind will be introduced that will only be enforced upon honest people who do their best for their animals and be ignored and unenforced upon those who prefer to live off and simultaneously outside society.

It makes me sad.
Angry sad. :mad:

Yep, thats the problem, taxes or licences levied to regulate an industry are ignored by the very people causing the problems and they are not pursued by the councils or gardai. For example, the bin charges are conveniently avoided by some toerags who fly tip. Last week I witnessed a boy being sent across the road with the black bin to then dump it on its head for the council to deal with. He then casually wheeled his empty bin back, no lift charges for them that week. I live in Ballymun, I have seen the state that some horses are kept in, left grazing on grass verges, unwashed, ungroomed, looking uncared for. The DSPCA could, if they had the balls, sieze every horse found in an urban area. I'm sure a quick assessment of the 'facilities' at Dunsink would give them reason to seize those horses too. After the snow melted I counted at least 4 dead horses on the hill while passing on the m50.

Cat Melodeon · 07-03-2011 12:10pm

While I agree broadly with what both of you have to say re licencing, taxing and regulating horse ownership, breeding and sales, I really don't think either of you are doing yourselves any favours with the following remarks:

Laminations wrote: »

No horses should be raised on housing estates...

Yet you say as long as an owner has the facilities and means to take care of an animal they should be allowed to have one. What do you mean by housing estates? Private or council, city or country? Not everyone who lives on a housing estate is deviant. Not every horse raised on a housing estate fares badly. There are people who live on council estates who keep horses in perfectly acceptable conditions. It is grossly unfair to tar everyone with the same brush.

Humans eh! wrote: »

More concerned with Kna****r rights than real actual suffering.
You need a licence for a dog and yet scumbags 'trade' these large animals without regulation or empathy only concerned with what they are worth

Of course this being Ireland (here's the political bit) a tax of some kind will be introduced that will only be enforced upon honest people who do their best for their animals and be ignored and unenforced upon those who prefer to live off and simultaneously outside society.

Please don't equate scumbag with Traveller. Yes there are horrendous incidents of animal cruelty carried out by Travellers but there are also plenty of Travellers who love their animals and look after them well. Equally there are plenty of non-Travellers who have done horrific things to their animals.

Going down this route is going to do nothing for the debate of animal rights, all you will do is split opinion along settled v Traveller or class lines. Could ye not concentrate on ALL incidents of animal cruelty by ALL people rather than demonising one particular group? Introduction of animals rights legislation, rigid regulation and monitoring of animal ownership and the means to implement it effectively is what is needed, not cliched blame games and what could be construed as bigoted stereotyping. Take that tactic and you'll end up derailing the issue from one of animal rights to one of culture or class wars.

Laminations · 07-03-2011 12:11pm

ATT: MODS
This thread is about regulation of an industry. Whatever mod saw 'horse' in the title and kicked it from politics, I'd appreciate it being moved back. This discussion could go far beyond horses

Laminations · 07-03-2011 12:15pm

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Not everyone who lives on a housing estate is deviant.

Well of course not. I live on a housing estate. The words 'housing estate' are not derogatory, most people live like that.

Horses require livery stables, fields to graze and run etc. You can live in a housing estate and own a horse that is kept elsewhere (or even keep it in your back yard provided it is big enough) but to allow your horse graze on the edge of the road, thats public grass for one, and wander around the estate, it is not suitable.

Plazaman · 07-03-2011 12:43pm

Maybe someone with a legal head on them might explain why new legislation is needed to make changes to the market? The papers quote the Casual Trading Act, 1995 as to why the markey cannot be closed down but it says in Section 6 of the Act "(1) A local authority shall, as soon as may be after the commencement of this Act, make bye-laws in relation to the control, regulation, supervision and administration of casual trading in its functional area." [HERE]
Surely Fingal County Council could enact a new bye law to omit Smithfield as a Casual Trading Area? Is this too simple or am I way off bounds?

Sleepwalker73 · 07-03-2011 2:23pm

Laminations wrote: »

The annual market should be shut down immediately, and if it ever is allowed return it should be to a field down the country

Unfortunately, it's not an annual thing. It happens every first sunday of almost every month. March fair is just the biggest one

bitter_lemon · 07-03-2011 2:35pm

i made a post earlier going into depth about my hatred of this fair. where did it go?

i'm not gonna repeat myself. i think i'm ranted out for the day!
it may have got deleted because i called knackers knackers!

Sleepwalker73 · 07-03-2011 2:52pm

Mistreatment of animals on each and every occassion

First week after any of these fairs - you have to jump over piles of horses%@#t to cross the square and adjoint streets.

Smell would probably be gone in a second week.

People do not tend to go out in the area when this fair is happening. Too dangerous.

And now shootings.

This awfull skating rink is gone. But it was the smallest problem compare to the fair.

Hockey Chick · 07-03-2011 3:18pm

Unfortunately even with lisences and regulation it doesnt stop cruelty to animals otherwise the ISPCA wouldnt be so overworked with dogs from Puppy farmers, unfortunately the rules at the moment prohibite the DSPCA from seizing animals unless they are severly negelected and even after that as far as I am aware all the owner has to do is pay a fine and can take back the animal. Its complete and utter ignorance when it comes to how people treat horses, and it really makes me so cross because bags of horse feed are definately NOT expensive at my local CO OP on average anything between €8-€14 depending on what your trying to feed

Cat Melodeon · 07-03-2011 3:22pm

bitter_lemon wrote: »

i made a post earlier going into depth about my hatred of this fair. where did it go?
i'm not gonna repeat myself. i think i'm ranted out for the day!
it may have got deleted because i called knackers knackers!

I didn't see your post. If you ranted about your hatred of the fair, grand, appeal it. If you ranted about your hatred of Travellers, used derogatory language and tarred them all with the same brush, that goes against the charter of boards.ie and is fair game to be deleted. there's a fine line between legitimate complaints about a sub-section of a community and a bigoted rant about the whole community (be it Travellers or any other group). I can only guess that you crossed that line.

paddi22 · 07-03-2011 4:16pm

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Yet you say as long as an owner has the facilities and means to take care of an animal they should be allowed to have one. What do you mean by housing estates? Private or council, city or country? Not everyone who lives on a housing estate is deviant. Not every horse raised on a housing estate fares badly. There are people who live on council estates who keep horses in perfectly acceptable conditions. It is grossly unfair to tar everyone with the same brush.

A housing estate is not a suitable place for a horse, regardless of how caring the owner is. It's not a snobbery thing, I'm from a housing estate and love horses, so i worked for years doing night shifts in mcdonalds so i could keep my horse in a livery yard. i would never dream of keeping mine in my estate, i would class it as cruelty, no matter how good my intentions were

Horses need a herd for company, correct turnout on properly controlled fields. not to be tethered and at danger from anyone going past. Dogs, kids, incorrect shelter, the risk of getting loose and injuring someone. What kind of proper shelter can they have? Bringing it into a shed in your garden at night? Is that fair on neighbours, is it fair on the horse to be kept alone?

A housing estate is no place for a horse ever.

If you can't afford to give a horse its basic needs then sadly you shouldn't have it. If you can't afford even a part livery then how can you afford unexpected vets bills, farriers etc. People don't have an automatic right to own a horse, you have to have a certain amount of finance to care for it properly.

Humans eh! · 07-03-2011 4:30pm

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Please don't equate scumbag with Traveller. Yes there are horrendous incidents of animal cruelty carried out by Travellers but there are also plenty of Travellers who love their animals and look after them well. Equally there are plenty of non-Travellers who have done horrific things to their animals.

Going down this route is going to do nothing for the debate of animal rights, all you will do is split opinion along settled v Traveller or class lines. Could ye not concentrate on ALL incidents of animal cruelty by ALL people rather than demonising one particular group? Introduction of animals rights legislation, rigid regulation and monitoring of animal ownership and the means to implement it effectively is what is needed, not cliched blame games and what could be construed as bigoted stereotyping. Take that tactic and you'll end up derailing the issue from one of animal rights to one of culture or class wars.

Not once did I mention or infer travellers, this seems to be an issue with you. The scumbags I refer to are the people who believe that laws do not apply to them I couldn't give a toss where they come from.
IMO cruelty inflicted on defenceless animal by human = scumbag and kna***r.

My own case of horse abandonment was by a NON Traveller.
You made the assumption....

Demonique · 07-03-2011 4:43pm

Humans eh! wrote: »

MODS, please feel free to move this post to somewhere more appropiate.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have 5 acres of (bad) land attached to my rural cottage and for a year have let a friend of a friend keep two horses on it for a nominal fee. This individual never once came to check on them and left a few quid in a local shop for my troubles. Last winter which was extremely, severe he never bothered with them and hasn't paid me for food which I buy (Haylage & Coolmix) due to no grass in the field.

He cannot be contacted now, (rumour is he fecked off to England) and has effectively abandoned the horses and I have assumed full responsibility for their welfare. I feed and take care of them as an animal lover but seem to have no legal rights over them or have a say in their welfare. He could turn up any time and cart them off to 'Smithfield' or some other well regulated paragon of animal welfare, which fills me with horror. I am very fond of them and they are such sweet trusting creatures and will see no harm come to them and do not want them to end up in a housing estate in Dublin for forty quid apiece.Angry sad. :mad:

Can't you report him to the SPCA?

bitter_lemon · 07-03-2011 5:06pm

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

I didn't see your post. If you ranted about your hatred of the fair, grand, appeal it. If you ranted about your hatred of Travellers, used derogatory language and tarred them all with the same brush, that goes against the charter of boards.ie and is fair game to be deleted. there's a fine line between legitimate complaints about a sub-section of a community and a bigoted rant about the whole community (be it Travellers or any other group). I can only guess that you crossed that line.

i didn't rant about my hatred of travellers. it seems to be ok to call a scumbag a scumbag but not ok to call a knacker a knacker!
i'm not interested in appealing anything. i know i am right - that is all that matters to me.
you should spend some time working with these people in their community. i didn't lick this view from the stone :mad:

convert · 07-03-2011 5:43pm

Laminations wrote: »

ATT: MODS
This thread is about regulation of an industry. Whatever mod saw 'horse' in the title and kicked it from politics, I'd appreciate it being moved back. This discussion could go far beyond horses

Attitudes like that won't get you very far. I happen to agree with the politics forum mods' decision to move this thread here, so I'm going to leave it here for discussion as your post actually deals with the issue of horse welfare, and is therefore better suited here.

paddi22 · 07-03-2011 6:15pm

it would be a shame for the thread to degenerate into a racism oe, theres already 100's of threads on boards like that. this thread is about shutting down smithfield market, and it has a much wider scope than just peoples opinions on travellers.

im shocked any of the traders think its a good idea to hold it there.

byhookorbycrook · 07-03-2011 6:33pm

I live in a housing estate. My horse is on livery out the country. This costs me €400 a month.Because I pay for my horse, I don't go out at weekends very much, have a small old car and don't go on foreign holidays.

If you have a horse, you have to be willing to keep it in safety and health.On a rope in a green area with no shelter or water is not a suitable place for a horse. End of.

To paraphrase a certain song, you have to feck the Honda civic, if you want a horse (not outside ,unless outside is a proper field)

convert · 07-03-2011 8:11pm

Can we please keep the discussion to the topic in question rather than having it degenerate into a racism or animal rights thread. The topic is more than broad enough to facilitate this. Anyone not heeding this warning will be infracted and/or banned. Thanks.

If you've any queries or are unsure if your post may fall into these categories, don't hesitate to PM me or Borderfox.

Ave Sodalis · 07-03-2011 8:16pm

I think it's difficult enough to keep a horse the way things are now. That's why so many are being abandoned. Introducing more taxes and licenses would be a ridiculous thing to do at the moment.

The best thing to do is have stricter regulation and security at the fairs to put a stop to the violence that endures. As for the fair in question, I'm not familiar with it but from the sounds of the news article, it isn't a great place to be and prehaps it's best to shut down that particular one.

Laminations · 07-03-2011 8:31pm

convert wrote: »

Attitudes like that won't get you very far. I happen to agree with the politics forum mods' decision to move this thread here, so I'm going to leave it here for discussion as your post actually deals with the issue of horse welfare, and is therefore better suited here.

Attitudes like what? It was a simple request to have the thread replaced in politics after it was anonymously moved from there. I'll explain my rationale. I don't ride a horse, own a horse or every intend having a horse but I have opinions on this matter which is a legislative one and currently a hot topic in the media. There are plenty of people who'd (I guess) would like to contribute to this thread who would not usually visit the equestrian forum. I'm sorry if you saw that request as attitude but I think this thread has got more to it than horse welfare, it could discuss societal attitudes towards the law and regulation (and it could and should, I agree, do it without being a racist traveller bashing thread).

@ sup_dude
While policing and good management of events is essential, it does nothing to address how horses that are bought for less than a guinea pig are treated outside the Market. And I dont see how the argument could be made that a horse fair could ever be well managed in a city centre residential location. Appealing to tradition isn't good enough here

caseyann · 07-03-2011 9:10pm

Its an absolute disgrace that these people think they can go beyond the law and put innocent people in the line of fire.:mad: People could have been trampled in the panic.It could have been alot worse.
What was with the bomb device?
And the newspapers describing it as travelers only fair,is a load bull****.
People go there to deal in horses some go to buy ponies for their kids and some kids just love horses and go to watch.
If they suspected something was going to happen they should have had police searching people for weapons and made the area safe letting it go ahead in first place.
Sooner the better these people are put in their place and a age old horse fair can carry on.Trust the yobs to ruin it for everyone else.

Some poor kid could have been on that horse when that all broke loose.Bang them to rights.:mad:
The horse fair shouldnt be banned but there should be laws brought in for it.

paddi22 · 07-03-2011 10:53pm

caseyann wrote: »

People go there to deal in horses some go to buy ponies for their kids and some kids just love horses and go to watch.
If they suspected something was going to happen they should have had police searching people for weapons and made the area safe letting it go ahead in first place.
Sooner the better these people are put in their place and a age old horse fair can carry on.Trust the yobs to ruin it for everyone else.

Some poor kid could have been on that horse when that all broke loose.Bang them to rights.:mad:
The horse fair shouldnt be banned but there should be laws brought in for it.

The problem is that times have moved on and it is a completely unsuitable venue for a horse fair. the fact thats its going on for centuries is bull****. times have moved on and now its a built up city area with a tram running through it. there isn't good enough space or facilities for horses or crowds.

There is absolutely no need for a horse fair in the centre of dublin anymore. there are enough around the country in safer venues. Why should the police have to waste their time and our tax money searching people at a fair. it should be cancelled. this innocent view about people buying and selling their kids ponies, and people coming cause they love horses is very niave. I love horses and trade them, but i would never do it at a market where they regularly sell abused ponies to kids on a whim, who then gallop these ponies through the city just cause they can buy them for cheap. anyone who buys and sells horses has access to them through done deal and other markets. smithfield is an absolute disgrace and has no redeeming features, and i say that as someone involved in the industry who knows some of the regular dealers there. and anyone who really loved horses wouldn't enjoy walking round that market.

Borderfox · 08-03-2011 10:26am

Times have moved on and fairs will have to move on too, regulation for the sales for Horses is already in place in Goresbridge/Tattersalls/Goffs and I would like to see this in place at the horse fairs around the country, no sales without passports and vetrinary checks for the horses. Smithfields events have been ready to boil over for a long time between either elements that are involved in it and from when I was small it was never a "good" horse sale.

I would echo byhookorbycrooks sentiment that Horses are not a right and I also make a lot of sacrifices to look after my horse both in money and time and if you cant afford proper care levels you shouldnt have a horse.

The bomb turned out to be a homemade shotgun

kevin99 · 08-03-2011 2:38pm

I was driving through west Finglas yesterday afternoon and saw at least ten horses grazing on open commonage in front of a housing estate.
I slowed down to see if they were ok and discovered some of them were tethered to bricks and other pieces of discarded refuse and could only move a certain distance.

The corpo should round up all of these unfortunate animals and give them to people who are prepared to provide and care for them.

Kids under 18 should not be allowed own horses unless they have a properly regulated stable, pen and grass for them.

It is a disgrace the way some of our less fortunate horses are treated by people who, frankly, couldn't give a damn for their health.

I know the ISPCA and various animal rescue centres throughout the country are overrun by the needs of badly treated horses, but something needs to be done to oultaw, one and for all, the outrageous treatment meted out to these loyal, loving and defenceless horses.

kevin99 · 08-03-2011 2:45pm

Ban the Smithfield horse fair.
Once and for all, ban it.

Dublin City Council have tried to find an alternative site to host the fair without success. So, the Fair should be outlawed.

Imagine the destruction caused to the front of people's homes during the ensuing fracas!

If the gardai know who the two families involved are they should round them up and deal with them trough the law. And if they won't cooperate with the Garda investigations then charge them with obstruction, public order act offences and have them brough before the courts and, hopefully, jailed.

paddi22 · 08-03-2011 3:22pm

i agree with the poster above 100%. Even if the fair always passed off peacefully, it is still a completely unsuitable venue for a horse fair. There isn't suitable areas for parking and loading. The amount of horses i've seen rearing, napping or falling back against shop windows, pedestrians, parked cars and oncoming traffic is a disgrace, I haven't a clue how there aren't more injured. Horses are tied to lamposts or anywhere, often incorrectly, usually with too many beside them. You regularly see them injuring themselves pulling back of being kicked by another horse jammed against them. There is no perimiter so any escaped horses can bolt through busy streets and cause chaos, like that time the horse collided with the woman and child in the car on the quays.

The only thing people use to argue in favour of the fair is 'tradition' and thats not a strong enough reason any more.

byhookorbycrook · 08-03-2011 8:35pm

sup_dude wrote: »

I think it's difficult enough to keep a horse the way things are now. That's why so many are being abandoned. Introducing more taxes and licenses would be a ridiculous thing to do at the moment.

Horses legally have to be chipped and have a passport for a good while now. Most of the horses at this fair have neither,making it v difficult to track down owners of neglected/suffering horses. If I had to pay to have this , why shouldn't everyone else?

The horse fair farce

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