If No One Had Told You About Allah.... Would You Still Believe In Him?

Mark Hamill · 06-03-2011 08:04PM

Jaafa wrote: »

Acording to wikipeadia its oceans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean Do you mean by water coverage ice as well?

Actually, the exact percentage on wikipedia is 70.8%, which is sourced from PhysicalGeography.net.

Jaafa wrote: »

As for the orbits while it may have been theorized, it was never proven until the 17th by Kepler. Although I'll grant you this is something anyone could have come up with.

The quran doesn't offer up a proof either. It just states that the things in space move through the same places periodically, something which anyone who has experienced night and day would be able to tell.

Jaafa wrote: »

No I do not value faith because god says so. Faith does not require god or religion it is merely a crucial part of. Faith still exist between humans in the form of trust regardless of god.

What I meant is that faith as an integral part of religion is only important because of god. He could give definitive objective evidence, something that requires no faith and there would be no downside as long as he didn't want there to be.

Jaafa wrote: »

For example think of the person you trust the most. Do you trust them because they have proven themselves to you in every possible situation. Or do you trust them because based on the information you have, although some of it is lacking, you have faith in them?

I trust them because they have proven themselves in nearly every situation, and in those situations where they have failed, I dont have faith (eg I have faith in my mother to take care of a child, I dont have faith in her to do complex maths).

Jaafa wrote: »

I mean logic would dictate that a person who has never had to risk their life for you can't be guaranteed to do so in the future. However I'm certain of at least a few people who do so for me. Why do I think this without enough information? Because I have faith in them.

Are you telling me, that if you were in a situation where someone might need to risk their life, that you wouldn't prefer evidence as to who would risk their life for you? You can claim you are certain, but you cant know for sure without evidence.

Nothing you have said has explained why faith is better than evidence.

virmilitaris · 07-03-2011 01:09AM

Jaafa wrote: »

Personally I don't see it as worship. I see it as giving thanks. I believe in god. Therefore I believe he has created all I see and he has given me a book by which to life my life in a good way. As a result I don't have any problem with giving up 15 minutes of my day to give thanks or worship as others call it. I'd call it a fair trade.

I call it a waste of 15 minutes. The Universe exists, I have my life and I am happy in it. I don't see what the possible motivation is to give thanks for something I have regardless of whether I give thanks or not.

Why is my life this way for example, why isn't it better ? God made other people richer, healthier and more successful than me even if they follow other religions or none at all.

If I give him thanks will he correct this error ?

philologos · 07-03-2011 07:30AM

virmilitaris: I guess I recognise it as a sort of homecoming. Having a relationship with your heavenly Father. It seems entirely organic to me, bringing things back to the way they were in the beginning, or the way that they should have been. Another reason why I would worship God is considering what He has done for me (through Jesus on the cross).

God doesn't promise to make you materially rich. Indeed, being materially rich is an impediment. I would rather live a humble life and have a living relationship with God than a life full of wealth and not have this relationship. It is worth more than the finest gold or silver to me.

dead one · 07-03-2011 07:41AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The quran doesn't offer up a proof either. It just states that the things in space move through the same places periodically, something which anyone who has experienced night and day would be able to tell.

Well my friend, Qur’an is not a book of Science,

Quran isn't book of ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, The quran proves itself the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

virmilitaris · 07-03-2011 10:14AM

Jakkass wrote: »

virmilitaris: I guess I recognise it as a sort of homecoming. Having a relationship with your heavenly Father. It seems entirely organic to me, bringing things back to the way they were in the beginning, or the way that they should have been. Another reason why I would worship God is considering what He has done for me (through Jesus on the cross).

What did jesus dying on the cross do for me ?

I don't find your argument regarding the organicness of the relationship compelling in the slightest. My parents are much closer to me and I'm not going to spend my life worshipping them or giving them praise.

So what did the crucifxion do for me? Bearing in mind that for the sake of argument I accept it happened as well as the theological implications it implies from a christian viewpoint.

Mark Hamill · 07-03-2011 10:42AM

dead one wrote: »

Well my friend, Qur’an is not a book of Science,

When you quote from a source dead one, can you please give the source? Thanks.

Quran isn't book of ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But what yardstick do you use to determine that the quran is the best yardstick?

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, The quran proves itself the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

You dont have to be an atheist to recognise that science is the best method we, as humans, have to measure or test something. Its quotes like these that make me think that the people talking dont seem to understand what science actually is. They seem to think that science and scientists are the same, that a failure of scientists means a failure of science (hence the point about "u-turns"), as if my failure to build a table implies a failure in the whole concept of carpentry.
Science is a method, thats all there is to it. You have an observation, you make a hypothesis (model) to explain it, then you test it and then alter the model to account for any new observations your tests gave you. Rinse and repeat. Once you do all these, you are doing science and people do it in every part of their lives from cooks experimenting with new ingredients in their dishes, to football coaches trying new players in new positions. I've yet to hear of an alternative to science that could give humanity a greater (or even as great of an) understanding of the universe that we could actually use.

irishconvert · 07-03-2011 12:24PM

Can I just remind people that this is the Islam forum and debating the existance of God/Allah is not acceptable.

I would like to draw your attentiong to rule #1 in the charter:

This forum is not open for you to attack the Islam religon nor is it a forum for people of that faith to have to constantly defend their faith from attack.

If you have a question for Muslims, that's fine, go ahead and ask it. But this is not the place to promote your lack of belief in God/Allah.

Thank you.

07-03-2011 12:52PM

I think the assumption being worked on here is that your god does exist - and requesting reasons why it should be worshiped -from virmilitaris' POV anyway.

That is, I accept your gods existence. Now why should I worship it ?

irishconvert · 07-03-2011 02:49PM

virmilitaris and jackass, this is not the Christianity forum. If you want to debate about Jesus dying on the cross (which is not a belief held by Muslims), can you take it to Christianity forum??

Thanks.
IrishConvert

dead one · 08-03-2011 05:35AM

bluewolf wrote: »

I think the assumption being worked on here is that your god does exist - and requesting reasons why it should be worshiped -from virmilitaris' POV anyway.

That is, I accept your gods existence. Now why should I worship it ?

Some people don't understand the meaning of worship. Worship isn't that you bow on your ankle and say Ha Ho Ha and on the other hand you lies and abuse other people all the time. Worship actually means completely surrender yourself before Allah. That if you are not abusing, You are worshiping Allah. If you don't tell lies, You are worshiping Allah. If are just with other you are worshiping Allah. If you are following commandment of Allah you are worshiping Allah. On the other hand if you are following you desires than you are worshiping your desires as many atheists had made their selves as god. The subject is already discussed in Quran

(45:23) Did you ever consider the case of him who took his desire as his god, and then Allah caused him to go astray despite knowledge, and sealed his hearing and his heart, and cast a veil over his sight? Who, after Allah, can direct him to the Right Way? Will you not take heed?
To make one's lust one's god" implies that one should become a slave of one's lusts and desires: one should do whatever one likes whether God has forbidden it, and should not do what one dislikes, whether God has made it obligatory. When a man starts obeying somebody like this, it means that his deity is not God but the one whom he is obeying without question, no matter whether he calls him his Iord (with the tongue) or not, and carves out an image of him and worship: him or not. For when he has worshipped him directly without question, it is enough to make him a deity because one did not call the object of one's worship one's deity with the tongue, nor prostrated oneself before it.

Why we should worship Allah, because it's the only way to create peace on Earth.

dead one · 08-03-2011 05:59AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But what yardstick do you use to determine that the quran is the best yardstick?

That is science. Quran is going in accordance with Science. Quran don't contradict with Science.
Now please tell

What is that yardstick which cause you to believe that life on earth is accident.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You dont have to be an atheist to recognise that science is the best method we, as humans, have to measure or test something. Its quotes like these that make me think that the people talking dont seem to understand what science actually is. They seem to think that science and scientists are the same, that a failure of scientists means a failure of science (hence the point about "u-turns"), as if my failure to build a table implies a failure in the whole concept of carpentry.

That quotation doesn't say that you should become atheist, It is saying that many atheist use science to measure and test. So why they don't test quran by Science. If Quran is wrong than it is quite sure science will prove it wrong.

Sorry i tried to find the link but can't find it, so next time i will put the link whenever i quote thanks

virmilitaris · 08-03-2011 06:05AM

dead one wrote: »

Why we should worship Allah, because it's the only way to create peace on Earth.

I didn't find any of your arguments the least bit convincing or worthy of discussion.

No one has given me a reason to give thanks / worship Allah yet.

dead one · 08-03-2011 06:32AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

I didn't find any of your arguments the least bit convincing or worthy of discussion.

No one has given me a reason to give thanks / worship Allah yet.

Ah i guess, You are not willingly to accept it.

Than can i ask, How will you define worship?. What is worship according to you?

What you think what kind of monster is worship, please give detail what is in your mind about worship.

virmilitaris · 08-03-2011 06:40AM

dead one wrote: »

Ah i guess, You are not willingly to accept it.

Than can i ask, How will you define worship?. What is worship according to you?

What you think what kind of monster is worship, please give detail what is in your mind about worship.

I said worship or thanks.

I don't see any reason to thank Allah or to give him any thanks. What's the reason to do so if my life will be the same regardless of whether I give him thanks or not.

dead one · 08-03-2011 06:59AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

I said worship or thanks.

I don't see any reason to thank Allah or to give him any thanks. What's the reason to do so if my life will be the same regardless of whether I give him thanks or not.

Reason is you and your life. You are nothing he created you from nothing. Isn't it your right to thank him. Suppose i give a gift to you what is best way to repel it, you should remember me and thankful to me. Same is case of this life, this life is God's gift to man. So a man should always thankful to the God. Now many people are thankful to evolution by believing that life on earth is an accident so why not thank to him who started this accident isn't it irony. [SIZE=-1]Being grateful is to render one’s thanks to someone who has shown favor, to express gratitude and to appreciate. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] The concept of being grateful to Allah, on the other hand, is to grasp and express that every kind of grace and favor is granted exclusively by Allah. In the Qur’an, the opposite of being grateful is defined by the term “disbelief”, which is synonymous to being ungrateful. Only this definition indicates the importance attached to being grateful as a worship and the detrimental consequences it may have for a believer.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Gratefulness to Allah is one of the concepts mostly emphasized in the Qur'an. In almost 70 verses, the importance of rendering thanks to Allah is stated, the examples of those who are grateful and ungrateful are given and the end they face is related. The reason why so much importance is given to this concept is simply because it is a mere indication of one’s faith and affirmation of the oneness of Allah. In one of the verses “being grateful” is described as “worshipping only to Allah”[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1]O you who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you, and be grateful to Allah, if it is Him you worship. (Al-Baqara, 172)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In another verse giving thanks to Allah is described as the opposite of idolatry:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]But it has already been revealed to you,- as it was to those before you,- "If you were to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be your work (in life), and you will surely be in the anks of those who lose (all spiritual good)". Nay, but worship Allah, and be of those who give thanks. (Az-Zumar, 65-66)[/SIZE]
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virmilitaris · 08-03-2011 07:45AM

dead one wrote: »

Reason is you and your life. You are nothing he created you from nothing.

And he created me regardless of whether or not I will thank him for it.

Isn't it your right to thank him.

Yes it is my right just as it is my right not to thank him.

Suppose i give a gift to you what is best way to repel it, you should remember me and thankful to me.

If you're a rich man and you gave me 50 euros I would say "Thanks" and never think about it again.

Allah is a god and he has given me a mortal life with many advantages and disadvantages. Was it not in his power to give me a better life ? Is my life such a magnificent gift compared to what he could have given me ? Could he not have made me better if he so choose ?

I will say "Thanks" and think nothing more of it.

Same is case of this life, this life is God's gift to man. So a man should always thankful to the God.

Why ? Whether I thank him or not nothing will change. You haven't given me any reason to do so.

dead one · 08-03-2011 08:50AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

And he created me regardless of whether or not I will thank him for it.

He didn't created you whether or not you will thank him but for it is for you to choose "thank" for him. He needs no thank from you. Because he wants to test you. It's all about your choice. He has given you full right you can be thankful to him or you can be neutral etc. It is also for test, whether you should say thank to him or you disobey him. Please see

Do men think that they will be left alone on saying “We believe”, and that they will not be tested? We did test those before them and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false. Qur’an 29:2-3

What is purpose of this test because Satan challenge God

"It is We Who Created you and gave you shape; then We bade the Angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down. (Allah) said: 'What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee? He said: 'I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay. (Allah) said: 'Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures). He said: 'Give me respite till the day they are raised up. (Allah) said: 'Be thou amongst those who have respite.' He said: 'Because thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy Straight Way: Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (of Thy mercies).' (Allah) said: 'Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee - Hell will I fill with you all. (The Noble Quran, 11-18)"

virmilitaris wrote: »

Yes it is my right just as it is my right not to thank him.

Who gives you choices of "rights" that is God. So whatever your choice may be, you will be judge by God on the day of Resurrection. I hope you won't blame God on that day!. Simple example is enough to make this clear. Suppose there are two roads A and B. The road A is safe and B is dangerous. It is upon you which road you may choose. If you choose dangerous road than why you don't blame yourself. If you are not thankful to God ultimately you are disbelieving his kindness. Is this how you should repel his kindness.

virmilitaris wrote: »

If you're a rich man and you gave me 50 euros I would say "Thanks" and never think about it again.

If i give you again 100$ than what would you say?. This life is never ending debt of God to his children. He gives every day to you with new sunshine, you eat, you enjoy so what is wrong if you say thank to him.

virmilitaris wrote: »

Allah is a god and he has given me a mortal life with many advantages and disadvantages. Was it not in his power to give me a better life ? Is my life such a magnificent gift compared to what he could have given me ? Could he not have made me better if he so choose ?

The better answer for what you said it that You are creation, he is creator, why he created this life with disadvantages. It is for him. Why i am saying this because limitness of my knowledge. What i can tell you, i telling you from quran. This mortal world, this life with disadvantages will pass even if your age 10000 years but what about never ending life. {Look how We have favored [in provision] some of them over others. But the Hereafter is greater in degrees [of difference] and greater in distinction.} [Quran 17:21] Allaah also Says (what means): {…and have raised some of them above others in degrees [of rank] that they may make use of one another for service. But the mercy of your Lord is better than whatever they accumulate.} [Quran 43:32]

virmilitaris wrote: »

Why ? Whether I thank him or not nothing will change. You haven't given me any reason to do so.

Atleast you thank or not but it can't remove the greatest fact that he gives you gift life from nothing. Do you really think the life you have is your own life. So also do you think it is justice not to thank him who is so kind on you. So it is injustice on you part if you don't thank him.

08-03-2011 09:19AM

dead one wrote: »

Some people don't understand the meaning of worship. Worship isn't that you bow on your ankle and say Ha Ho Ha and on the other hand you lies and abuse other people all the time. Worship actually means completely surrender yourself before Allah. That if you are not abusing, You are worshiping Allah. If you don't tell lies, You are worshiping Allah. If are just with other you are worshiping Allah. If you are following commandment of Allah you are worshiping Allah. On the other hand if you are following you desires than you are worshiping your desires as many atheists had made their selves as god. The subject is already discussed in Quran

My religion holds that desire is the root of suffering, so your idea of follow your god vs give in to desires is obviously a false dichtomy, not only in my case either.
Being a good person is presumably not the same as worshiping your god, so what is the difference? All you've done is talk about hypocrites who claim to worship but don't - that's not what was asked.

Why we should worship Allah, because it's the only way to create peace on Earth.

:rolleyes:

virmilitaris · 08-03-2011 09:30AM

Dead one i didn't quote you because almost nothing inyour last post had any relevance to my questions.

You did say that my choice to give thanks or not was a test. A test of what? I already said I accept his existence. What test is this? Just to see if I give him thanks or not?

As far as I can tell he has given me no reason to give thanks. By not giving thanks what do I lose? By giving thanks what do I gain?

I've lived quite happily all of my life so far without giving thanks. What will gvng thanks change?

You've quoted a lot of scripture which is fine but irrelevant to this discussion. I said I accept he exists and everything that is written about hinlm is true. I still see no reason to give thanks, worship him or follow the quran.

irishconvert · 08-03-2011 09:58AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

Dead one i didn't quote you because almost nothing inyour last post had any relevance to my questions.

You did say that my choice to give thanks or not was a test. A test of what? I already said I accept his existence. What test is this? Just to see if I give him thanks or not?

As far as I can tell he has given me no reason to give thanks. By not giving thanks what do I lose? By giving thanks what do I gain?

I've lived quite happily all of my life so far without giving thanks. What will gvng thanks change?

You've quoted a lot of scripture which is fine but irrelevant to this discussion. I said I accept he exists and everything that is written about hinlm is true. I still see no reason to give thanks, worship him or follow the quran.

You are entirely focused on this life. What about the next life? This life is just a preparation for the next. This life is nothing more than a test. You will be rewarded in the next life for your actions in this life.

virmilitaris · 08-03-2011 10:05AM

irishconvert wrote: »

You are entirely focused on this life. What about the next life? This life is just a preparation for the next. This life is nothing more than a test. You will be rewarded in the next life for your actions in this life.

Rewarded how? What do I have to do to get this reward? What happens if I don't get the reward? Do I not get a second life?

08-03-2011 10:15AM

irishconvert wrote: »

You are entirely focused on this life. What about the next life? This life is just a preparation for the next. This life is nothing more than a test. You will be rewarded in the next life for your actions in this life.

So we should just do as we are told for a reward?

irishconvert · 08-03-2011 10:33AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

Rewarded how? What do I have to do to get this reward? What happens if I don't get the reward? Do I not get a second life?

We, as Muslims, believe you have to follow the Qur'an. What happens to you if you don't follow these teachings, I cannot tell you. That is up to Allah.

bluewolf wrote: »

So we should just do as we are told for a reward?

Not just for reward. We do it because it pleases Allah. As Muslims, we submit to the will of Allah.

BMF Plint · 08-03-2011 10:38AM

The sooner that people understand that all religion is nothing but a bronze age fantasy twisted and adapted by others to suit there needs. Everyone obviously thinks that there religion is correct, no questions asked. To me religion is the most highly illogical concept that human beings still embrace. I would like you all to contemplate this, The Lord of the rings was written 2000 years ago and people embraced it then some person came along and twisted it to his own liking and called himself a "prophet" and some people followed him and his making of things while then some other person came along and claimed he was the son of gandalf which propelled his religion even further and then another prophet came along and as you can see it goes on and on and on. But the idiotic part of it is that each of these different sects think there religion is right but the all evolved from the lord of the rings and hold the same core principal.. People don't realize that they are actually following the prophet not god. If I claimed to be a prophet would you follow me?

Mark Hamill · 08-03-2011 10:43AM

dead one wrote: »

That is science. Quran is going in accordance with Science. Quran don't contradict with Science.
Now please tell

What is that yardstick which cause you to believe that life on earth is accident.

And how can you tell, scientifically, that the quran is superior to science?

dead one wrote: »

That quotation doesn't say that you should become atheist, It is saying that many atheist use science to measure and test. So why they don't test quran by Science. If Quran is wrong than it is quite sure science will prove it wrong.

Thats what we are doing. People have proposed scientific claims from the quran and we are discussing them.

dead one · 08-03-2011 10:46AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

As far as I can tell he has given me no reason to give thanks. By not giving thanks what do I lose? By giving thanks what do I gain?

Let us talk to the reason. Who gives you life when you r nothing. What you r eating, enjoying or drinking with your fives scenes is not enough reason to thank him. Your are eyes are the reason with them you see the beauty of world. Isn't it reason. Ask to your

Now can you give me reason, Have you created yourself?

Mark Hamill · 08-03-2011 10:51AM

irishconvert wrote: »

You are entirely focused on this life. What about the next life? This life is just a preparation for the next. This life is nothing more than a test. You will be rewarded in the next life for your actions in this life.

By offering (or just by letting us know of) such extreme rewards as heaven and hell, has objectivity been thrown out the window? What I mean is, that everyone who is working to be good and to worship god, has, unavoidably, in the back of their minds these rewards, and so a lot of the good they are doing is going to be done in the name of these rewards, as opposed to because its good, which, according to dead one, is what bad muslims do.

dead one · 08-03-2011 10:51AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And how can you tell, scientifically, that the quran is superior to science?

50 Years ago science believes sun was stationery. But it is written 1400 years ago in Quran that everything in universe is moving including Sun. So there are lot of mysteries still in the Quran which Science hasn't discover but it's doesn't mean Quran is wrong.

Mark Hamill · 08-03-2011 10:57AM

dead one wrote: »

On the other hand if you are following you desires than you are worshiping your desires as many atheists had made their selves as god. The subject is already discussed in Quran

How can atheists have made themselves god if they dont believe in any god?

dead one wrote: »

To make one's lust one's god" implies that one should become a slave of one's lusts and desires: one should do whatever one likes whether God has forbidden it, and should not do what one dislikes, whether God has made it obligatory. When a man starts obeying somebody like this, it means that his deity is not God but the one whom he is obeying without question, no matter whether he calls him his Iord (with the tongue) or not, and carves out an image of him and worship: him or not. For when he has worshipped him directly without question, it is enough to make him a deity because one did not call the object of one's worship one's deity with the tongue, nor prostrated oneself before it.

You think atheists just whatever they like whenever they like? Have you ever actually met an atheist? If this were true, then countries with large amounts of atheists would collapse into anarchy.

dead one wrote: »

Why we should worship Allah, because it's the only way to create peace on Earth.

Why aren't muslim countries the most peaceful countries in the world then?

dead one · 08-03-2011 10:58AM

bluewolf wrote: »

My religion holds that desire is the root of suffering, so your idea of follow your god vs give in to desires is obviously a false dichtomy, not only in my case either.

It's not my idea, It is fact which you ignoring, You need no God to govern your lives because you r god of yourself. That is exaclty what quran tells that some people make their desires as their lord. Why you are not following God's desires or God's word because it is difficult for you to leave what you are worshiping i.e. your desires.

bluewolf wrote: »

Being a good person is presumably not the same as worshiping your god, so what is the difference? All you've done is talk about hypocrites who claim to worship but don't - that's not what was asked.
:rolleyes:

can you tell me who decides, what is Good and what is bad, Please clear me.

If No One Had Told You About Allah.... Would You Still Believe In Him?

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