Driving without a licence

FreudianSlippers · 14-04-2010 08:39AM

A lot also depends on your previous convictions for road traffic offences... the more of a collection you have, the more likely a judge is to throw the book at you, so to speak.

MagicSean · 14-04-2010 11:09AM

OisinT wrote: »

A lot also depends on your previous convictions for road traffic offences... the more of a collection you have, the more likely a judge is to throw the book at you, so to speak.

I'd love if they actually threw a book at someone.

jimmystewart · 09-01-2011 02:59AM

Greetings

My girlfriend has a similar issue to the above. She was stopped at a checkpoint yesterday with no tax or nct. The car was impounded. To top it off she can't find her license now. She is a full license holder with no previous. She is freaking right the way out. Does any have idea what sort of fines points etc she is facing? Any help appreciated.

Crasp · 09-01-2011 03:08AM

jimmystewart wrote: »

Greetings

My girlfriend has a similar issue to the above. She was stopped at a checkpoint yesterday with no tax or nct. The car was impounded. To top it off she can't find her license now. She is a full license holder with no previous. She is freaking right the way out. Does any have idea what sort of fines points etc she is facing? Any help appreciated.

She has 10 days to get her ass to the tax office and get a dupliucate licence to produce to the gardaí (if requested, which I guess it was or she wouldn't be panicking). She needs to go the the garda station and fill in the form for lost documents and get it stamped.

Secondly, there is a €60 fine for failure to display tax. The impound and storage costs of the car would have been explained to her at the time of impounding.

Incidentally, I think cars are only impounded if the tax has expired by more than 3 months.

No NCT is 5 points + fine, if convicted. http://rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/new_penpoints_chart_apl09.pdf

These are basic things that all drivers should know. Then again, tax/NCT/carrying your licence at all times are actual legal requirements, and she didn't do them either.

jimmystewart · 09-01-2011 03:22AM

Thanks Crasp -I know what you mean, she can have no complaints.

I think the tax is out since April or May and the NCT since Oct. She is planning to be first in the queue in the tax office on Monday! I would have thought its a long shot that she will get her new license within 10 days though.

The gards explained that the impounding is €125 for the first day and €35 a day after that.

Looks like the lack of NCT will mean a court appearance and a fine. How hefty is the court fine?

Crasp · 09-01-2011 03:28AM

jimmystewart wrote: »

Thanks Crasp -I know what you mean, she can have no complaints.

I think the tax is out since April or May and the NCT since Oct. She is planning to be first in the queue in the tax office on Monday! I would have thought its a long shot that she will get her new license within 10 days though.

The gards explained that the impounding is €125 for the first day and €35 a day after that.

Looks like the lack of NCT will mean a court appearance and a fine. How hefty is the court fine?

I wouldn't worry about the licence thing, as she actually does have a licence. She should try to get one to present within the 10 days though, it'll be one less thing to worry about.

If she doesn't produce within the 10 days, she will be summonsed and she can explain that she has a licence, lost it, and couldn't get a new one within the 10 days (but it would be wise to bring the duplicate with her to court, at least). In Cork a new licence takes about 4 minutes + however long the queuing time is (anywhere from no time to an hour).

I have no idea how much the fine is for NCT.

She'd want to pick up the car soon then, wouldn't she?

jimmystewart · 09-01-2011 03:33AM

Yeah big time, the sooner this is all sorted the sooner she will let me relax! Thanks for your input!

dermot_sheehan · 10-01-2011 01:42AM

Just in relation to the driving licence being required for insurance cover point.

European Law requires that motor insurance policies cover a driver even if they do not have a driving licence as against third party claims.
Article 13(1)(b) of the Motor Insurance Directive (2009/103/EC)
A driver without a licence would be covered against third parties regardless of what's in their insurance policy, so would not be committing an offence under s. 56 of the Road Traffic Act

Delancey · 10-01-2011 02:15AM

gabhain7 wrote: »

Just in relation to the driving licence being required for insurance cover point.

European Law requires that motor insurance policies cover a driver even if they do not have a driving licence as against third party claims.
Article 13(1)(b) of the Motor Insurance Directive (2009/103/EC)
A driver without a licence would be covered against third parties regardless of what's in their insurance policy, so would not be committing an offence under s. 56 of the Road Traffic Act

Fascinating - I had always presumed that no licence meant the driver was automatically uninsured regardless of whether a policy was in place or not.
Interesting to learn otherwise.

dermot_sheehan · 10-01-2011 02:38AM

The Road Traffic (Compulsory Insurance) Regulations SI 14/1962 specify that an approved policy under the Road Traffic Act must comply with certain conditions
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1962/en/si/0014.html

The First Schedule of those Regulations prohibit an insurance company from having any conditions limiting payout, except those listed, including at 2(f)

(f) by limiting the cover to cases where the person driving a vehicle either holds a driving licence to drive the vehicle or having held such a licence has not been disqualified for holding it,

This was the position until 1987, that an insurance company could have as a condition precedent for an insurance policy under the road traffic act a requirement that the driver hold a licence.

In 1987 though Ireland implemented the Second Motor Insurance Directive which for the first time introduced the requirement that cover applies regardless of licence status of driver.
The Road Traffic (Compulsory Insurance) (Amendment) Regulations SI 321/1987
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/si/0321.html

inserted a new provision at end of paragraph 2 of the first schedule in the 1962 regulations:

The conditions referred to at (e), (f) and (g) of paragraph (2) shall provide that the limitations or restrictions shall not apply as respects a claim by a person to recover moneys from the insurer under section 76 of the Act

S. 76 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 permits a person injured by the negligent use of a motor vehicle to proceed directly against the insurance company for judgement

76.—(1) Where a person (in this section referred to as the claimant) claims to be entitled to recover from the owner of a mechanically propelled vehicle or from a person (other than the owner) using a mechanically propelled vehicle (in this section referred to as the user), or has in any court of justice (in proceedings of which the vehicle insurer or vehicle guarantor hereinafter mentioned had prior notification) recovered judgment against the owner or user for, a sum (whether liquidated or unliquidated) against the liability for which the owner or user is insured by an approved policy of insurance or the payment of which by the owner or user is guaranteed by an approved guarantee, the claimant may serve by registered post, on the vehicle insurer by whom the policy was issued, or on the vehicle insurer or the vehicle guarantor by whom the guarantee was issued, a notice in writing of the claim or judgment for the sum, and upon the service of the notice such of the following provisions as are applicable shall, subject to subsection (2) of this section, have effect:

(a) the insurer shall not after service of the notice pay to the owner or user in respect of the sum any greater amount than the amount (if any) which the owner or user has actually paid to the claimant in respect of the sum;

(b) where the claimant has so recovered judgment for the sum, or after service of the notice so recovers judgment for the sum or any part thereof, the insurer or guarantor shall pay to the claimant so much of the moneys (whether damages or costs) for which judgment was or is so recovered as the insurer or guarantor has insured or guaranteed and is not otherwise paid to the claimant, and the payment shall, as against the insured or principal debtor, be a valid payment under the policy or guarantee;

(c) where the claimant has so recovered judgment for the sum, or after service of the notice so recovers judgment for the sum or any part thereof, and has not recovered from the owner or user or such insurer or guarantor the whole amount of the judgment, the claimant may apply to the court in which he recovered the judgment for leave to execute the judgment against the insurer or guarantor, and thereupon the court may, if it thinks proper, grant the application either in respect of the whole amount of the judgment or in respect of any specified part of that amount;

(d) where the claimant has not so recovered judgment for the sum, the claimant may apply to any court of competent jurisdiction in which he might institute proceedings for the recovery of the sum from the owner or user for leave to institute and prosecute those proceedings against the insurer or guarantor (as the case may be) in lieu of the owner or user, and the court, if satisfied that the owner or user is not in the State, or cannot be found or cannot be served with the process of the court, or that it is for any other reason just and equitable that the application should be granted, may grant the application, and thereupon the claimant shall be entitled to institute and prosecute those proceedings against the insurer or guarantor, and to recover therein from the insurer or guarantor any sum which he would be entitled to recover from the owner or user and the payment of which the insurer or guarantor has insured or guaranteed;

(e) the insurer or guarantor shall not, as a ground for refusing payment of moneys to the claimant or as a defence to proceedings by the claimant, rely on or plead any invalidity of the policy or guarantee arising from any fraud or any misrepresentation or false statement (whether fraudulent or innocent) to which the claimant was not a party or privy and which, if constituting a misdemeanour under this Part of this Act, was not the subject of a prosecution and conviction under the relevant section of this Act.

S. 56 (1)(a) of the Road Traffic Act 1961 (as amended) creates the offence of driving without insurance, it provides:

56.—(1) A person (in this subsection referred to as the user) shall not use in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle unless either a vehicle insurer, a vehicle guarantor or an exempted person would be liable for injury caused by the negligent use of the vehicle by him at that time or there is in force at that time either—

(a) an approved policy of insurance whereby the user or some other person who would be liable for injury caused by the negligent use of the vehicle at that time by the user, is insured against all sums without limit (save as is hereinafter otherwise provided) which the user or his personal representative or such other person or his personal representative shall become liable to pay to any person (exclusive of the excepted persons) by way of damages or costs on account of injury to person or property caused by the negligent use of the vehicle at that time by the user, or

Since a person driving without a licence in breach of their insurance policy would have a policy of insurance, and pursuant to s. 76 of the Road traffic act the insurer would be liable for damages caused by their driving, they can not be convicted of driving without insurance for breaching this condition of their insurance policy.

kevinw07 · 07-03-2011 11:00PM

Hi, I just received a summons for (1) no insurance user
(2) driving without a license (3) failure to produce license (4) failure to produce insurance,

I'm just wondering if anybody had anything similar to this or what to expect,
Any help would be great,
Thanks.

Merch · 08-03-2011 12:33AM

kevinw07 wrote: »

Hi, I just received a summons for (1) no insurance user
(2) driving without a license (3) failure to produce license (4) failure to produce insurance,

I'm just wondering if anybody had anything similar to this or what to expect,
Any help would be great,
Thanks.

What were the circumstances that you were driving without the above?

No licence on you or learner permit or none at all?? and then failing to produce it later because late producing or unable to because you dont have one, and is that the same for insurance, is the car covered under someone else? or none at all

kevinw07 · 08-03-2011 10:33AM

The car was covered under somebody else, I had no learner permit at the time but I got it a month after the date of the offence

Milk & Honey · 08-03-2011 10:42AM

If there was insurance on the car, you might have a chance with the insurance which is the most serious offence. There is a case going to the Supreme Court at the moment on this. I think it was mentioned before on this forum. A lot will depend on your legal team.

lovelyirish · 15-04-2011 10:53PM

how does a gard know if ur full license is suspended .. if its on medical grounds....(becaue u wouldnt have committed any crime for them to have a record of)... does their speed vans or cars pick it up automatically.. or would they only know if they pull u over to manually check ur license like they do with the tax, nct etc...

slimjimmc · 16-04-2011 10:45PM

lovelyirish wrote: »

how does a gard know if ur full license is suspended .. if its on medical grounds....(becaue u wouldnt have committed any crime for them to have a record of)... does their speed vans or cars pick it up automatically.. or would they only know if they pull u over to manually check ur license like they do with the tax, nct etc...

They have to pull you over, how else would they know its is you who is driving? Your licence is associated with the driver not the car. I guess the medical suspension would have been imposed by a licensing authority and would therefore be on a national database. However I reckon it would only become apparent to the Gardaí if they checked back with the station or you admitted to driving on a suspended licence.

notcalled4 · 19-04-2011 02:43AM

uh oh, I'm in trouble

Ok so I got into a bit of trouble about 8 year ago (quite serious charges think maybe 2 non driving) & around the same time I was caught with no licence, insurance etc & banned for 2 year,

I didnt need the licence or anything so never bothered applying for one when the ban ran out (about 6 years ago)

And tonight I got stopped for the same offence

(yes I know I was an idiot)

What is the likely punishment for a second similar conviction, fine, prison term?
Do the courts allow free legal aid for driving offences?

& I am also unemployed, does anyone know what the standard fine would be for someone unemployed or is it any different & just have to pay up?

Paulw · 19-04-2011 08:29AM

notcalled4 wrote: »

What is the likely punishment for a second similar conviction, fine, prison term?
Do the courts allow free legal aid for driving offences?

& I am also unemployed, does anyone know what the standard fine would be for someone unemployed or is it any different & just have to pay up?

Hopefully there is a prison term for you. You'll also be banned (again) from driving, plus a fine. Considering this is your second offence for the same charge, I doubt the judge will have any sympathy for you at all.

I don't believe the fine is any different, employed or unemployed.

notcalled4 · 19-04-2011 09:56AM

Paulw wrote: »

Hopefully there is a prison term for you.

Hopefully there is some bus that runs over you in the near future ignorant pr1ck!

The first time was 8 years ago when I was 18!

MagicSean · 19-04-2011 10:00AM

notcalled4 wrote: »

Hopefully there is some bus that runs over you in the near future ignorant pr1ck!

The first time was 8 years ago when I was 18!

So? You are 26 now and did the same thing. Hardly a good excuse to say you learned nothing.

You may get a prison term if you are charge with no insurance and have a previous conviction. You may be entitled to legal aid in this instance because of this.

notcalled4 · 19-04-2011 10:21AM

k_mac wrote: »

So? You are 26 now and did the same thing. Hardly a good excuse to say you learned nothing.

You may get a prison term if you are charge with no insurance and have a previous conviction. You may be entitled to legal aid in this instance because of this.

Thank you at least your reply was a genuine one and not just needling,

I know it was stupid I had only bought the car for the misses and my brother needed a lift

But thats just bla bla bla I know I wont matter why I drove just the fact that I did.

seamus · 19-04-2011 10:55AM

My guess would be a five year ban, short suspended prison sentence and a fine somewhere around €2,000.

Pure guesswork though. It can depend on the judge and his mood on the day. You have no excuse for it, so don't make things worse in court by trying to give one. Admit that you have no excuse and you made a stupid mistake.

notcalled4 · 19-04-2011 01:06PM

seamus wrote: »

My guess would be a five year ban, short suspended prison sentence and a fine somewhere around €2,000.

Pure guesswork though. It can depend on the judge and his mood on the day. You have no excuse for it, so don't make things worse in court by trying to give one. Admit that you have no excuse and you made a stupid mistake.

Thanks for the reply, I know not to make excuses as it is un-defenable really and purely stupid thing to do now looking back

I had a look at the citizens information and I see they say its a max of 6 months jail term but dont know how dated is this?

Would these be the general guidelines?

citizens info wrote:

Rules

You must have motor insurance to drive a car in your own name or as a named driver on someone else's policy.
Failure to have motor insurance or driving without insurance in Ireland is generally punishable by:
A fine of up to €2,500

Disqualification of one year or more for a first offence and two years or more for a second offence, and

At the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.

seamus · 19-04-2011 01:27PM

OK, looking at this more realistically;

Driving without a licence does not carry a prison sentence. Because you were not disqualified at the time, the maximum penalty for this is €2,000.

Driving while uninsured carries stiffer penalties of up to six months in prison and up to €5,000 euro in fines. You will also face a ban. The length of this ban is effectively at the discretion of the court. However, because four or more years have passed since your last ban ended, the court are permitted to treat this as a first offence.

Also interesting to note that the Road Traffic Act allows for the owner of a vehicle to be prosecuted if they allow their vehicle to be driven without insurance. So if your wife/gf knew you were taking the car, she could equally be charged and receive a €5k fine, prison sentence and a disqualification.

This part is very, very rarely prosecuted by the Gardai though.

The above info is just from me picking through irishstatutebook.ie. I could easily be wrong.

I imagine you are perfectly entitled to apply for free legal aid.

notcalled4 · 19-04-2011 02:07PM

Once again thanks for such a lenghty informative post,

Lucky enough thank f*** I still have the log book in my name (although it is filled out into her name ready to be mailed to shannon)
so atleast its only me who will get punished for my actions

dearg lady · 19-04-2011 02:28PM

notcalled4 wrote: »

uh oh, I'm in trouble

Ok so I got into a bit of trouble about 8 year ago (quite serious charges think maybe 2 non driving) & around the same time I was caught with no licence, insurance etc & banned for 2 year,

I didnt need the licence or anything so never bothered applying for one when the ban ran out (about 6 years ago)

And tonight I got stopped for the same offence (yes I know I was an idiot)

What is the likely punishment for a second similar conviction, fine, prison term?
Do the courts allow free legal aid for driving offences?

& I am also unemployed, does anyone know what the standard fine would be for someone unemployed or is it any different & just have to pay up?

OT, but it's a good idea to renew your licence after a ban, even if you're not using it. An endorsement will go on it for 3 years (I think it's 3) so you might as well get that out of the way.

phonejacker · 12-01-2012 06:40PM

hypothetically if a Garda stops you and your not carrying your licence with you can the Garda fine you?

Paulw · 12-01-2012 07:12PM

phonejacker wrote: »

hypothetically if a Garda stops you and your not carrying your licence with you can the Garda fine you?

Yes. By law you are required to have your driving license in your posession while driving - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/full_driving_licence.html

In most cases though, they will give you 10 days to produce your license at your local station.

MagicSean · 12-01-2012 07:13PM

phonejacker wrote: »

hypothetically if a Garda stops you and your not carrying your licence with you can the Garda fine you?

Summons you. They rarely do if you produce within 10 days at a station.

phonejacker · 13-01-2012 12:53AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Summons you. They rarely do if you produce within 10 days at a station.

Thank you kind sir.:)

Driving without a licence

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