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Why do the Irish Always Blame everything on their 'Painful History'

  • 04-03-2011 08:06PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭


    In the manner of A Savage Eye voiceover, Why do the Irish always blame their 'terrible painful history' for everything that is wrong with their country?

    Surely Ireland alone among European nations had a uniquely easy ride through the 20th Century? I mean look at Poland: Invaded by the Nazis, mass killings, concentration camps, fiercely supressed uprisings by the Nazis and The Soviets, almost total destruction of the capital city (and other major cities) , almost all of it's intellegentsia brutally murdered, followed by 45 years of communism, secret police , arrests in the middle of the night, torture , near total economic collapse...most of Eastern Europe has a similar story to tell, to verying degrees of difficulty. Most of the Western ones experienced real brutal dictatorship at some time or another(not the namby-pamby authoritarianism of the Brits)

    Our Twentieth century? A Rising in which a couple of hundred people get killed, followed by a Civil War in which a few thousand get killed, totally missing out on the horrors of mechanised warfare, twiddled our thumbs through WWII, never experienced the totalitarianism of the left or right, as almost everybody else did, just ground along in a sort of ordinary boring poverty most of the time, pausing occassionally to have ourselves a little squabble in the North, with less casualties in 30 years than half-an-hour at Auschwitz, till we decided to turn the place into a casino for a couple of years, and let a few pricks steal all our money.

    With the exception of the (160 years past) famine, surely we got away quite lightly through the growing pains of the modern world compared to everyone else?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,015 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    In fairness, those other countries deserved it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    With the exception of the (160 years past) famine, surely we got away quite lightly through the growing pains of the modern world compared to everyone else?



    Oooooooohhhh too soon bro, too soon.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    I usually blame my impotence for my drinking problem and my drinking problem for my impotence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    What about manflu? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭squeakyduck


    Why blame it on the past when we can blame it on the present....RECESSION! :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    I don't have a painful history.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Companero wrote: »
    In the manner of A Savage Eye voiceover,


    I stopped reading there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,154 ✭✭✭Rented Mule


    Companero wrote: »
    Our Twentieth century? A Rising in which a couple of hundred people get killed, followed by a Civil War in which a few thousand get killed, totally missing out on the horrors of mechanised warfare, twiddled our thumbs through WWII, never experienced the totalitarianism of the left or right, as almost everybody else did, just ground along in a sort of ordinary boring poverty most of the time, pausing occassionally to have ourselves a little squabble in the North, with less casualties in 30 years than half-an-hour at Auschwitz, till we decided to turn the place into a casino for a couple of years, and let a few pricks steal all our money.


    It's amazing how lazy out grandparents and great-grandparents were.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    In fairness, Irish people lived in poverty for hundreds of years right up until a few decades ago. Hundreds of years of misery will have an effect on a nations psyche.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    In fairness, Irish people lived in poverty for hundreds of years right up until a few decades ago. Hundreds of years of misery will have an effect on a nations psyche.

    we still do, that boom was only a blip in our misery


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    snyper wrote: »
    we still do, that boom was only a blip in our misery
    True, the glorious light we saw at the end of our misery tunnel was just a debt train that has dragged us back another 30 years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭niallers1


    I suppose being kept from reaching our potential as a people for the last few hundred years due to occupation, plantation,starvation e.t.c
    might have something do do with it.



    Maybe Lizzie Windsor will give us back the northern part of our country when she visits in May.. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Cathaoirleach


    Can no one see the hypocrisy and irony of an Irish person being xenophobic when they already hate their own culture.. eg. the huge anti-Irish brigade here in AH. :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Herodotus


    While we our talking about this, I thought it useful to add this speech given at TCD by the well known Harvard economist, Niall Ferguson.

    He was speaking in 2003 in relation to his (very good) book, How Britain Made the Modern World.

    He makes some fair points.
    It sounds like an intellectual suicide mission: persuade the Irish that any good came of the British empire. No matter what has been written by Ireland's own `revisionist' historians, the collective memory of the empire in Ireland remains a bitter one.



    The legacy of Ireland's colonisation by Englishmen and Scots in the 16th and 17th centuries continues to divide the island, breeding strains of terrorism, criminality and sectarian hatred which seem ineradicable.
    Not even the most jingoistic Brit could deny that in the mid-1840s the British not only failed to alleviate, but actually exacerbated, one of the great catastrophes of the 19th century: the famine that killed around a million people.



    The subsequent exodus of around six million Irish men, women and children -- an emigration larger in relative terms than any other in 19th century Europe -- is recalled in Ireland as a further tragic consequence of British rule.



    When I visited Dublin last week it was not to whitewash the unquantifiable human suffering caused by plantation, famine and emigration. On the contrary, these are among the most lamentable debits on the balance sheet of empire.



    Yet a balance sheet cannot be composed of debits alone. Tenaciously though hardline Irish nationalists may cling to the belief that nothing good ever came from east of the Irish Sea -- ex Britannia, nil salus -- it's the job of the historian to consider the credit side too, not least because it has important implications for the world in which we live today.
    First, let me come clean. As a Glaswegian from a solidly Protestant background I grew up with memories of the empire that were diametrically opposite to the Irish nationalist view.



    Scotland was North Britain, Glasgow the Second City of the Empire and without the Scottish regiments the English would have lost both world wars.



    To someone of my generation, born the year before Winston Churchill's death, the world seemed to have been on the slide since the empire's decline and fall. As for Ireland, it was simply a failed Scotland.
    Instead of a Protestant industrial south dominating a backward Catholic north, in Ireland it was the backward Catholic south that had the upper hand.



    The Irish could have been Scotland; instead they had ended up being Poland.


    One of the greatest joys of studying the past is that you get to ditch your youthful prejudices. The reality, as I came to understand when I began to study Irish history, was altogether different.


    The union of Scotland and England was, from its outset, a partnership -- if an unequal one. The political union of crowns and parliaments was accompanied by a social union of aristocratic and commercial elites and, of course, a common adhesion to Protestantism (albeit different brands). The two peoples joined forces to pursue profit and power overseas.
    The union of Ireland and England was another matter. It was achieved by conquest and colonisation; indeed, Ireland can justly be called the experimental laboratory of an Anglo-Scottish project to `plant' British culture in strategic overseas outposts.



    Looking down on the Bogside from the walls of `Londonderry' -- there's no point calling those forbidding walls anything shorter -- I think I grasped for the first time the true nature of what was begun there in 1610.
    The Irish were on the receiving end of a policy of expropriation and `ethnic cleansing' every bit as ruthless as that which would be attempted in North America.


    The difference between Northern Ireland and Massachusetts was this: because the Irish were resistant to British diseases, they survived. The native Americans were less lucky. In Massachusetts they were almost entirely wiped out within decades of the Pilgrim Fathers' arrival.
    The colonisation of Ireland brought misery in its train. Subsistence agriculture -- with any surplus pocketed by an alien landlord class -- condemned the Irish to grinding poverty and, ultimately, starvation.
    In 1500 the average Briton's income had probably been about 45 per cent higher than the average Irishman's. By 1820 that gap had become a gulf: British incomes were nearly two-and-a-half times those in Ireland.
    Instead of being Massachusetts, Ireland was fast becoming India.
    Yet from 1850 onwards, things dramatically changed. There was a huge outflow of people from Ireland -- mainly to the United States, but also in large numbers to other parts of the empire: Australia, New Zealand and Canada.



    Their journeys were dangerous and uncomfortable, no doubt. But the work of economic historians such as Kevin O'Rourke has shown conclusively that the net effect of the Irish exodus was positive -- not only for the emigrants, whose living standards in the New World rapidly overtook those in the British Isles, but also for those who stayed behind, whose wages rose as the population declined.


    The dogmatic nationalists may not like to hear this, but the rate of growth of per capita gross domestic product (GDP) in Ireland was around a third higher than it was in Britain.



    By 1913 Irish wages were rapidly closing the Anglo-Irish gap: a Dublin building worker was earning around 90 per cent of his London counterpart's pay.


    Thanks to `Anglobalisation' -- that extraordinary integration of global markets for commodities, labour and capital that occurred under British leadership after 1850 -- Ireland experienced its first economic boom. It was Catholic peasants, not Anglo-Irish landlords, who benefited. The combination of falling grain prices and Liberal legislation to improve the lot of tenants meant that inequality within Ireland was significantly reduced.
    So Ireland went from being little India to being little Canada -- part of a thriving Atlantic economy. The tragedy was that this economic convergence between Ireland and Britain was not accompanied by a simple political concession.



    `Home Rule' had effectively been granted to Canada, Australia and New Zealand by the time Gladstone proposed restoring Dublin's own parliament and granting the Irish a degree of political autonomy. Yet unionists in Westminster and the north-east of Ireland doggedly opposed the idea.

    Anti-Irish and anti-Catholic prejudices combined to sabotage the only viable non-violent solution to the Irish question.



    "But wait a minute," comes the nationalist response. "Look how well southern Ireland has done since gaining its independence from the Brits."
    The latest figures from the OECD suggest that Ireland's per capita GDP is now higher than Britain's. Far from Ireland being a failed Scotland, Scotland now looks distinctly like -- I hate to admit it -- a failed Ireland. And how could the Celtic tiger ever have emerged as long as it was being sat on by the British lion?


    The trouble with this argument is that Ireland's prosperity is the fruit of barely ten years of economic success. For most of the period after partition the Free State/Republic performed dismally: growth was 20 per cent lower in Ireland between 1913 and 1950 than it was in Britain.
    Only when the Irish re-embraced globalisation in the 1990s -- in other words, only when they reverted to the economically liberal policies the British had pioneered a century ago -- did they achieve their economic miracle.



    It goes without saying that Ireland's recent riches are the fruit as much of economic dependence as of political independence: dependence, above all, on American capital and European subsidies.


    Drawing up historical balance sheets is never easy. When it comes to British Ireland, it is especially hard. Even today, four centuries after the first plantations, the `Brits' are a long way from being forgiven for their sins.



    Yet the Irish were not only victims of empire. As emigrants (and indeed as soldiers) they were also among the beneficiaries of Anglobalisation.


    His new book,Civilisation: the West and Rest, is about to be released as far as I know. While there's a documentary based on the book starting on C4 this Sunday.

    Be sure to tune in!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭MitchKoobski


    ^^^ No.

    I blame everything on manflu and the staff who purposefully makes my food wrong after the pub just to mess with me because they're absolute bastards and they should all go back to where they came from....the country.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭Up-n-atom!


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    In fairness, Irish people lived in poverty for hundreds of years right up until a few decades ago. Hundreds of years of misery will have an effect on a nations psyche.

    I think the point being made is that we aren't the only ones this has happened to. And plenty of other countries have managed to survive this with their language and culture intact, whereas here it's spat upon by a huge proportion of the population, yet its loss is blamed on the coloniser. Also, plenty of countries are still suffering high levels of poverty and oppression, and often we're not very sympathetic (yet the same people are very quick to moan about our persecuted past).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 798 ✭✭✭niallers1


    Maybe you should read some more about Irish history...

    How English became the dominant language would be a good start for you before you complain about the Irish language not being spoken by everybody.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭Up-n-atom!


    I know plenty about Irish history. The same methods used by the British to diminish it were used in plenty of other countries which managed to retain their language.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    A lazy, immature and self conscious society.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭sheesh


    Companero wrote: »
    In the manner of A Savage Eye voiceover, Why do the Irish always blame their 'terrible painful history' for everything that is wrong with their country?

    Surely Ireland alone among European nations had a uniquely easy ride through the 20th Century? I mean look at Poland: Invaded by the Nazis, mass killings, concentration camps, fiercely supressed uprisings by the Nazis and The Soviets, almost total destruction of the capital city (and other major cities) , almost all of it's intellegentsia brutally murdered, followed by 45 years of communism, secret police , arrests in the middle of the night, torture , near total economic collapse...most of Eastern Europe has a similar story to tell, to verying degrees of difficulty. Most of the Western ones experienced real brutal dictatorship at some time or another(not the namby-pamby authoritarianism of the Brits)

    Our Twentieth century? A Rising in which a couple of hundred people get killed, followed by a Civil War in which a few thousand get killed, totally missing out on the horrors of mechanised warfare, twiddled our thumbs through WWII, never experienced the totalitarianism of the left or right, as almost everybody else did, just ground along in a sort of ordinary boring poverty most of the time, pausing occassionally to have ourselves a little squabble in the North, with less casualties in 30 years than half-an-hour at Auschwitz, till we decided to turn the place into a casino for a couple of years, and let a few pricks steal all our money.

    With the exception of the (160 years past) famine, surely we got away quite lightly through the growing pains of the modern world compared to everyone else?

    Their intelligensia murdered is it? tis far from having an intelligencia the likes of us were reared.......:pac:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Up-n-atom! wrote: »
    I think the point being made is that we aren't the only ones this has happened to. And plenty of other countries have managed to survive this with their language and culture intact, whereas here it's spat upon by a huge proportion of the population, yet its loss is blamed on the coloniser. Also, plenty of countries are still suffering high levels of poverty and oppression, and often we're not very sympathetic (yet the same people are very quick to moan about our persecuted past).
    Not many countries have been oppressed for the amount of time Ireland was. We're talking hundreds of years. Poverty, civil war, famines, ethnic cleansing, genocide, apartheid, religious conflicts, some slavery, colonisation. Our history is comparable to Africa and the new world. Thats how bad it is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭Up-n-atom!


    I'm not going to argue with you about the brevity of it or how bad it was - it's the attitude of some people to it and their ignorance about the rest of the world that gets me.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,388 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Not many countries have been oppressed for the amount of time Ireland was. We're talking hundreds of years. Poverty, civil war, famines, ethnic cleansing, genocide, apartheid, religious conflicts, some slavery, colonisation. Our history is comparable to Africa and the new world. Thats how bad it is.
    Seriously. Get a grip. No really. Africa and the new world? Talk about hyping it up to 90. Like those who compare the north of Ireland to Bosnia. Very very silly. An beal bocht indeed.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,079 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Who are these Irish people you speak of?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    I really do hate to take the "we were oppressed, damn the queen, damn the crown!!@!!" type route but it is through to a certain extent. up until the late 19th / start of the 20th century, the British viewed as nothing more than a backwards food producer for the empire. Half the reason they were unwilling to give us Home rule was not only the unionist supporters but they thought the native Irish were incapable of self-government. We were a ****ty little farming country well up into the 70s until joining the EU actually started producing results for us.

    One thing I will say though which few people seem to like to recognize is even though the British "fúcked us over", there was no country we relied on bigger than Britain. Look at the impact the economic war of the 30s had on the Irish economy, we went from exports of 47 million in the 20s to 18 million by the mid 30s crippling the country. The main reason we joined the EU in 73 was because the British were joining, if we didn't join we'd have a lost a huge amount of money in exports. Ireland didn't truly prosper till the EU began pumping money into Ireland and large American companies start setting up here in numbers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    I have never blamed a solitary thing for it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Companero wrote: »
    In the manner of A Savage Eye voiceover...

    Yea, whatever...

    Next!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 562 ✭✭✭lcrcboy


    Companero wrote: »
    In the manner of A Savage Eye voiceover, Why do the Irish always blame their 'terrible painful history' for everything that is wrong with their country?

    Surely Ireland alone among European nations had a uniquely easy ride through the 20th Century? I mean look at Poland: Invaded by the Nazis, mass killings, concentration camps, fiercely supressed uprisings by the Nazis and The Soviets, almost total destruction of the capital city (and other major cities) , almost all of it's intellegentsia brutally murdered, followed by 45 years of communism, secret police , arrests in the middle of the night, torture , near total economic collapse...most of Eastern Europe has a similar story to tell, to verying degrees of difficulty. Most of the Western ones experienced real brutal dictatorship at some time or another(not the namby-pamby authoritarianism of the Brits)

    Our Twentieth century? A Rising in which a couple of hundred people get killed, followed by a Civil War in which a few thousand get killed, totally missing out on the horrors of mechanised warfare, twiddled our thumbs through WWII, never experienced the totalitarianism of the left or right, as almost everybody else did, just ground along in a sort of ordinary boring poverty most of the time, pausing occassionally to have ourselves a little squabble in the North, with less casualties in 30 years than half-an-hour at Auschwitz, till we decided to turn the place into a casino for a couple of years, and let a few pricks steal all our money.

    With the exception of the (160 years past) famine, surely we got away quite lightly through the growing pains of the modern world compared to everyone else?

    I think you are seriously over-generalizing what happened in Ireland if you read the accounts of what happened during the war of Independence there were some seriously horrific things that happened to Irish people, I suggest you take a read of a history book, in fact take a look at Blood on the Banner about the republican movement in county Clare and you will see accounts of black and tans burning down villages while locking people inside there homes to burn alive, there is also accounts of children being shot for no reason and hung. And mind you Clare did not get the worst of it, but do not over generalize what happened here.
    Now after saying that Irish people do have a tendency to dwell on the past but I think it is a minority and that the vast majority have moved on, and Im not saying we experienced worse things then people who have been oppressed in other parts of the world. But please go read a history book about what happened here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭Daegerty


    Ireland bad everywhere else good. I get it.


    (big industrialised city) does everything so much better than over here.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I'm not familiar with what you're talking about OP - yeah there are the idiots who hate the Brits for historical reasons, but the "everything" stuff, nah... don't see it. A lot of all the hugely thanked "The Irish do xyz" stuff on AH is down to a minority, a misinterpretation, or all in the head - and of course the addiction to self-hating prevalent here.


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