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Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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    #242
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    deise go deo wrote: »
    How so? FG are not even in government yet. Plans for protest's are already being made.

    people knew when they were going to cast their votes, that fg had expressed that they would make irish an optional language, seems that they dont mind this fact, when they gave votes in their thousands in every area including gaeltacht areas to fg candidates, i am very much for keeping our language an important subject,


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    #243
    subedei
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭subedei


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    QUESTION: How many pro-Irish posters here are Gaeilgeoirs?

    I am not a Gaeilgeoir by any stretch of the imagination.


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    #244
    siobhan.murphy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,340 ✭✭✭siobhan.murphy


    No personal attacks, please.

    Go raibh maith agat,

    simu


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    #245
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    goat2 wrote: »
    people knew when they were going to cast their votes, that fg had expressed that they would make irish an optional language, seems that they dont mind this fact, when they gave votes in their thousands in every area including gaeltacht areas to fg candidates, i am very much for keeping our language an important subject,


    The election was on far more Issues than just Irish in school, even so, several FG candidates criticized Endas policy as it was loosing them votes, FG seams very confused as to what they intend to do, They have mentioned making it optional several times, yet their manifesto only mentions making Irish optional by saying it won't happen before a consultation, it dosent actually say that they will make it optional during the next term at all.

    Michael Creed TD

    One of their TD's even went as far as to say that Irish would not be made optional for 'a generation or two' saying that the curriculum would be reformed first and making it optional would only come after 'verifiable results' had been seen.


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    #246
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    donjfarrell wrote: »
    Surely it would be better to teach our kids one of the Chinese languages like Mandarin?
    Trust me, if we cannot get the teaching of Irish, French, German or Spanish right we would be out of our heads to try Mandarin. The United States military rates it as a category IV language, which means in the amount of time it would take you to obtain proficient French, you will obtain basic Chinese.
    instead have Irish as a optional subject for all those romantic / sentimental upwardly mobile urbanites who like to think they're being very politically correct by sending their cotton-wool protected urban-chic middle-class little darling to an Irish School? The same people probably drive a Lexus Hybrid and shop in Farmers Markets because they believe they are superior to everybody else by wanting to save the planet by buying organic berries and coffee beans from South American.
    I'd say they're gay as well and probably fancy their own Dads.


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    #247
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Enkidu wrote: »
    Trust me, if we cannot get the teaching of Irish, French, German or Spanish right we would be out of our heads to try Mandarin. The United States military rates it as a category IV language, which means in the amount of time it would take you to obtain proficient French, you will obtain basic Chinese.
    Better to have a working knowledge of something useful than be a world authority on something useless.


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    #248
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Better to have a working knowledge of something useful than be a world authority on something useless.
    That is correct, however it ignores the point. It is easy to sound like a realist and say something practical like "let's teach Mandarin" without any estimation of how difficult it would be. If we can't teach French and German well it would be a stretch to try our hands at Mandarin.

    For example it would be difficult to ensure that you would actually have a working knowledge of Mandarin by the end of secondary school. To even have a good chance at it, we would need more native speakers teaching in schools.

    Anyway I realise I'm going on a tangent, but blurting out "Let's teach Mandarin" is an empty statement.


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    #249
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Enkidu wrote: »
    Anyway I realise I'm going on a tangent, but blurting out "Let's teach Mandarin" is an empty statement.
    I wasn't necessarily talking about a language at all as an alternative. If people don't want to do a second language, so what? We all speak the "Lingua Franca" of the Western world and for the foreseeable that's enough.
    Give the kids double maths or science to make up!


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    #250
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I wasn't necessarily talking about a language at all as an alternative. If people don't want to do a second language, so what? We all speak the "Lingua Franca" of the Western world and for the foreseeable that's enough.
    Give the kids double maths or science to make up!

    Do you not realize just how valuable teaching language is in an Educational sense?

    I am not talking about Irish specifically, but a second language in general.

    English is not the only language in the world, nor is it the only language in the western world, far from it.

    Bilingualism is the future, The Aim of the European Union is Mother tongue +2.


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    #251
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Do you not realize just how valuable teaching language is in an Educational sense?
    No better or worse than any other subject.
    Why not make computer science compulsory instead? Everyone on each needs it and it gives you smarts as good as Latin/Sanskrit/Irish/Linear B whatever.


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    #252
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    No better or worse than any other subject.
    Why not make computer science compulsory instead? Everyone on each needs it and it gives you smarts as good as Latin/Sanskrit/Irish/Linear B whatever.


    That is not the case, Language learning is very important in an educational sense. Learning a second language has proven benefits for cognative development.


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    #253
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    deise go deo wrote: »
    That is not the case, Language learning is very important in an educational sense. Learning a second language has proven benefits for cognative development.
    As opposed to learning nothing at all? Yeah, thought so.


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    #254
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    As opposed to learning nothing at all? Yeah, thought so.

    As opposed to learning everything through a single language, which is what you seem so strongly in favour of.


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    #255
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    As opposed to learning everything through a single language, which is what you seem so strongly in favour of.
    Go on then, show me the data that proves learning a second language is the causative factor in achieving better grades.


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    #256
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Go on then, show me the data that proves learning a second language is the causative factor in achieving better grades.

    ''The person who has never comprehended, spoken, read or written a language other than his mother tongue has little or no perspective on his own language,...he has never penetrated the rich areas of learning and experience lying beyond monolingual communication."
    data from the Admission Testing Program of the College Board show a definite positive correlation between Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) scores and the study of foreign languages. In one recent test group, for example, students who had taken no foreign language in high school achieved a mean score of 366 on the verbal portion of the SAT, and 409 on the math portion. Students who had taken only one year of a foreign language had slightly higher scores (378 and 416), whereas students with two years of foreign language showed more dramatic increases (417 and 463). Each additional year of language study brought a further rise in scores, with students who had studied a language for five years or more achieving an average of 504 on the verbal and 535 on the math portion of the exam.
    The College Board also calculated correlations between length of study of certain subjects, including English, math, biological sciences, physical sciences, and social studies, and SAT scores, and found that in almost all cases the longer a student studied one of these subjects, the higher were the scores. However, the verbal scores of students who had taken four or five years of a foreign laguage were higher than verbal scores of students who had studied any other subject for an equal length of time. Similar results have been obtained by other researchers who have examined foreign language study and SAT scores.

    Eric Digests
    Intellectual Potential

    Students fluent in two language score higher in both verbal and non-verbal intelligence.
    Students studying a second language are superior in divergent thinking tasks and in memory ability and attention span.
    Scholastic Achievement

    Second language students have higher test scores in reading, language and mathematics.
    Each additional year of second language training created a greater positive differential compared to students not receiving a second language.
    Effect on First Language

    Second language education significantly strengthens first language skills in areas of reading, English vocabulary, grammar and communication skills.
    The earlier the start, the greater the positive effect on the first language.

    Gov of Alberta: Education

    The review of existing research on the impact of second language education showed a set of
    consistent findings.
    There is a positive effect on the student’s intellectual potential. Gains in both verbal and nonverbal intelligence, improvements in divergent thinking as well as enhancement of memory and
    listening skills are all found to be associated with second language instruction.
    Student achievement is improved, as is witnessed by research that studies results on standardized
    tests in core subject areas. The research also shows that second language education improves the student’s skills in their first language

    Impact of Second language Education on Intellectual Development



    Lets see your supporting evidence for your claims.


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    #257
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    None of those studies have controls. Obviously, smarter children will tend to do well in all subjects and hence learn a second language to a higher degree more easily.
    In the absence of a study following the development of similarly academically gifted children with and without second language study, there is zero evidence presented that the second language is the causative factor.


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    #258
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    That's what the Gaelscoillna are for, so if people wish to send their children to them, they can.
    If that was true, things would be a lot better than they are.
    Unfortunately, regardless how often you write it, people keep coming back with the same crap. Let me spell it out once again for those who are not so smart.
    It is difficult to get a place in a Gaelscoil.
    The Dept. of Education refuses to recognise new Gaelscoileanna.
    There is more demand than places.
    Surveys have shown that up to 25% of people would send their kids to a Gaelscoil if one was available - but only something like 6 or 7 per cent actually get the opportunity at primary level; and a lot less at secondary level.

    If there was a place in a Gaelscoil for everyone who wanted one, then I'd be happy to sit down and talk about curtailing the requirement for those who are against Irish, after the Junior Cert.
    But lets see some movement first to provide places for those who want their kids educated through Irish, by way of proof that FG is serious when it says that it is in favour of promoting Irish in the education system.


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    #259
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    None of those studies have controls. Obviously, smarter children will tend to do well in all subjects and hence learn a second language to a higher degree more easily.
    In the absence of a study following the development of similarly academically gifted children with and without second language study, there is zero evidence presented that the second language is the causative factor.

    Read slower next time.

    In one recent test group.....students who had taken no foreign language in high school achieved a mean score of 366 on the verbal portion of the SAT, and 409 on the math portion.....students who had studied a language for five years or more achieving an average of 504 on the verbal and 535 on the math portion of the exam


    Kids who studied a second language did better acedemicly than kids who did not study a second language, how much more clear cut dose it need to be for you?

    If you still dont get it then have a look through this: What the Research Shows

    Is that good enough for you?:rolleyes:



    Now if you want to continue to argue that Learning a second language is not particulary Beneficial then please Provide some evidience to back it up.


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    #260
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    None of those studies have controls. Obviously, smarter children will tend to do well in all subjects and hence learn a second language to a higher degree more easily.
    In the absence of a study following the development of similarly academically gifted children with and without second language study, there is zero evidence presented that the second language is the causative factor.
    I think you will find that the Canadians have done every sort of study, with relevant controls. They have been very thorough in their promotion of bilingualism. I am certain of this, as I did a study on Canadian bilingualism for an organisation I worked for.
    There have been numerous studies done that show people with more than one language have a more flexible manner of thinking. You have rubbished them all, apparently.

    But then your real agenda is the one below:
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I wasn't necessarily talking about a language at all as an alternative. If people don't want to do a second language, so what? We all speak the "Lingua Franca" of the Western world and for the foreseeable that's enough.
    Give the kids double maths or science to make up!

    Well, the "lingua franca" of the western world may be enough for you, but you are in a small minority of maybe 3% or 4% of the world's population who only speak English.

    Now I'm not saying all native English speakers should go out and learn a second language, any more than I think all Chinese should, or all Arabs should. On an individual basis, knowing a second language gives you a door into a world you couldn't otherwise enter, and that is a valuable experience for everyone who does so.

    But what I do feel is important is that all Irish people should have the door into the Irish language opened for them, as it helps make them understand the country they live in, if only in allowing them to understand the placenames of the towns and villages they live in.
    Ballydehob, Tullamore and Tanderagee don't mean anything, and will tell you nothing about your surroundings or history. They are no more than gobbledegook. But the original versions, the REAL names, the ones used by Irish speakers do have meaning.
    However, you seem to feel that this is worthless to you.
    You are a modern-day unionist: not a political unionist, but a linguistic unionist, and I would not take that right away from you. I will not allow you to take my rights away, though, nor those of my children or those of the country's children as a whole.


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    #261
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Read slower next time.

    Kids who studied a second language did better acedemicly than kids who did not study a second language, how much more clear cut dose it need to be for you?

    If you still dont get it then have a look through this: What the Research Shows

    Is that good enough for you?:rolleyes:

    Now if you want to continue to argue that Learning a second language is not particulary Beneficial then please Provide some evidience to back it up.
    Déise, you're probably wasting your time here.
    Dannyboy will just come back and tell you that only the smart kids did the second language, and that is why they got good results.


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    #262
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    deirdremf wrote: »
    Déise, you're probably wasting your time here.
    Dannyboy will just come back and tell you that only the smart kids did the second language, and that is why they got good results.

    Only smart kids doing a second language would explain the difference between those who did a second language and those who dident.(If we ignore how unlikely this is to happen in practice)
    It wouldn't explain the improvement in results between those who had studied a second language based on amount of time the second language had been learned.


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    #263
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    We've been wasting our time replying to his seafóid for a fortnight now. He'll keep replying with total and utter ráiméis until we give up or get in trouble for reacting to it. The guy knows exactly what he's doing, and he's getting away with it too.


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    #264
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    All very entertaining flailing about, but you even had to admit yourselves that there are no proper controls for this. Equal academic grades -/+ second language for X years -> retested academic results.
    That's how studies for a causative factor are done. Maybe if you spent more time on stats and less on a second language you'd get this.


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    #265
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    We've been wasting our time replying to his seafóid for a fortnight now. He'll keep replying with total and utter ráiméis until we give up or get in trouble for reacting to it. The guy knows exactly what he's doing, and he's getting away with it too.

    Getting away with what? If you don't know what a causative factor is or how you'd go about testing for one then spare us all the lame "troll" alarm just because you're embarrassing yourself.


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    #266
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    deirdremf wrote: »
    Well, the "lingua franca" of the western world may be enough for you, but you are in a small minority of maybe 3% or 4% of the world's population who only speak English.
    Not contested but irrelevant.
    deirdremf wrote: »
    Now I'm not saying all native English speakers should go out and learn a second language, any more than I think all Chinese should, or all Arabs should. On an individual basis, knowing a second language gives you a door into a world you couldn't otherwise enter, and that is a valuable experience for everyone who does so.
    Not contested, but no different from any other subject so irrelevant.
    deirdremf wrote: »
    But what I do feel is important is that all Irish people should have the door into the Irish language opened for them, as it helps make them understand the country they live in, if only in allowing them to understand the placenames of the towns and villages they live in.
    "opened"? Are you for real? What kind of a metaphor is "an open door" for compulsory forced Irish language classes?
    deirdremf wrote: »
    Ballydehob, Tullamore and Tanderagee don't mean anything, and will tell you nothing about your surroundings or history. They are no more than gobbledegook. But the original versions, the REAL names, the ones used by Irish speakers do have meaning.
    No idea why you would even imagine I'd be upset about this. Unless you know proto-Celtic I suppose you yourself will never know the "real" meaning either.
    deirdremf wrote: »
    You are a modern-day unionist: not a political unionist, but a linguistic unionist, and I would not take that right away from you. I will not allow you to take my rights away, though, nor those of my children or those of the country's children as a whole.
    Better than a cultural fascist any day mate.
    And who said anything about taking your "right" to speak Irish away anyway? Paranoid delusions or what!


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    #267
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Second language study benefits academic progress in other subjects

    • Applying current standard practices of foreign language instruction ("Five Cs of
    Communication, Culture, Connections with other disciplines, Comparisons with students'
    native languages and cultures, and use of the foreign language in Communities outside the
    classroom") reinforces English language course content of other coursework. (Curtain &
    Dahlberg 2004)
    • Learning another language can enhance knowledge of English structure and vocabulary
    (Curtain & Dahlberg, 2004).
    • A study of 13,200 third and fifth graders in Louisiana public schools revealed that, regardless
    of race, gender, or academic level, children taking foreign language classes did better on the
    English section of the Louisiana Basic Skills Test than those who did not. (Dumas 1999)
    • Strong evidence shows that time spent on foreign language study strongly reinforces the core
    subject areas of reading, English language literacy, social studies and math. Foreign language
    learners consistently outperform control groups in core subject areas on standardized tests,
    often significantly. (Armstrong & Rogers 1997; Saunders 1998; Masciantonio 1977; Rafferty
    1986; Andrade 1989; Kretschmer & Kretschmer 1989)
    • One study found students scored significantly higher in math and language arts after one
    semester of foreign language study 90 minutes per week. (Armstrong 1997)
    • Foreign language learners consistently outperform control groups in core subject areas on
    standardized tests often significantly. (Armstrong & Rogers 1997, Saunders 1998,
    Masciantonio 1977, Rafferty 1986, Andrade, Kretschmer & Kretschmer 1989)
    • Students who started kindergarten in the first Kansas City foreign language magnet schools
    in 1988 had surpassed national averages in all subjects by the time they reached fifth
    grade.These foreign language students performed especially well in mathematics. (Eaton
    1994)
    • Foreign language students within an urban magnet program scored well above anticipated
    national norms in both reading and mathematics and higher than the average of all magnet
    2school participants, despite the fact that they represent a broad cross-section of the local
    community. (Andrade 1989)
    • Mastering the vocabulary of a second language enhances student comprehension and abilities
    in reading, writing, mathematics and other subjects. (Saville-Troike 1984)
    • Bilingualism fosters the development of verbal and spatial abilities. (Diaz 1983)
    • Students learning a second language in elementary school surpassed those who were not in
    English reading and language arts tests. (Mavrogenes 1979).
    • Early second language study promotes achievement in English vocabulary and reading skills.
    (Masciantonio 1977)
    • Foreign language learners consistently score higher than their non-language-learning peers in
    measures of English vocabulary, particularly when the language studied has Latin roots.
    (Masciantonio 1977)


    The Benefits of Second Language Study



    Your position has been discredited enough by now I think, so I will stop wasting my own time dealing with you until you put some evidence forward to support your position.


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    #268
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    deise go deo wrote: »
    The Benefits of Second Language Study



    Your position has been discredited enough by now I think, so I will stop wasting my own time dealing with you until you put some evidence forward to support your position.
    iirc, one curious result of studies that have been carried out was that the greater the difference between languages studied, the greater the benefits.
    So learning German (which has a similar grammar to English) provided lower benefits than learning a Romance (Latin-based) language (which has different word-order, different tense structure, with synthetic rather than analytic verb-forms).


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    #269
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Your position has been discredited enough by now I think, so I will stop wasting my own time dealing with you until you put some evidence forward to support your position.
    Since you've apparently read all of the studies in that and know their methodology, could you kindly tell which ones prove that studying a second language instead of another subject improves overall academic grades with the test subjects being otherwise academically equal before random assignment to the two relevant cohorts.
    (that's how you prove a factor is causative BTW)
    Even then your own data says children would gain more from being taught Japanese or Cantonese!!!


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    #270
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    QUESTION: How many pro-Irish posters here are Gaeilgeoirs?

    Almost fluent, currently in 6th year.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Go on then, show me the data that proves learning a second language is the causative factor in achieving better grades.

    Show me the data that indicates it's not the causative factor.
    deirdremf wrote: »
    Déise, you're probably wasting your time here.
    Dannyboy will just come back and tell you that only the smart kids did the second language, and that is why they got good results.

    He can't prove that the only children that undertook a second language were smart. That's rubbish.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Since you've apparently read all of the studies in that and know their methodology, could you kindly tell which ones prove that studying a second language instead of another subject improves overall academic grades with the test subjects being otherwise academically equal before random assignment to the two relevant cohorts.
    (that's how you prove a factor is causative BTW)
    Even then your own data says children would gain more from being taught Japanese or Cantonese!!!

    Can you show any evidence that studying maths or science instead of a second language improves overall academic grades? Oh wait, no you can't.


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    #271
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    You still don't know how this works, do you?
    You've made a claim. You have failed to prove it. I do not have to prove the converse for your claim to remain unproven. I'll give up trying to explain to you how to prove that the second language is the causative factor and take it you either can't understand or just don't want to know.
    If kids' overall academic achievements are no better whether they take business or Irish is also irrelevant, as business is useful. Irish is not. Still no case for Irish.


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