Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

erictheviking1 · 27-02-2011 02:17PM

They can still claim expenses. a luxury an employee doesn't have. As for pensions and dole. The self employed don't contribute so don't get. You have to look at it from the point of view of employees who are by far the majority

BurnsCarpenter · 27-02-2011 02:21PM

gigino wrote: »

They can only clain " empenses wholly and necessarily incurred in the business".

:pac:

And these noble self employed people don't bend the rules at all?

I know several people who claim tax back on computers, furniture, etc.

If they can possibly claim that they've used these items even once in the course of their business, it's going down as a business expense.

MagicSean · 27-02-2011 03:10PM

gigino wrote: »

And what a great pension you will have if you are lucky enough to live to the statistically average age, which is increasing due to advances in healthcare etc. I know you feel you are been hard done by having to contribute towards your pension, when there are so many retired public servants today who contributed flip all - relatively speaking - to their pension pots. All private sector workers though would love to have your pension to look forward to for only 16% of their pay. Many have had their pension plans / savings - if they were lucky enough to have any , which most did not - decimated through the collapse of the property market and bank shares etc.

Lets hope you live long past 65. Remember that the people who pay taxes to the government fund your pay, taxes and pension. Most of these people do not have the same pay, security or pension as yourself.

Who said I felt hard done by? My problem is with the plonkers who tell me I get my pension for free. Or who go on about their taxes paying my wage as if i should be grateful. It's not like I'm paid to do nothing. They get plenty in return from me.

gigino · 27-02-2011 03:23PM

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

I know several people who claim tax back on computers, furniture, etc.

Why not report them to thgr Revenue Commissioners so ? Please do.
If they have a vat inspection only " expenses wholly and necessarily incurred in the business " are allowable. Send the b****** to jail / give them big fines. The revenue are quite good + strict about this, rightfully so. Just because the self employed do not have the PAYE allowance enjoyed by employees, inc all public servants ( so they in fact pay more income tax as a percentage of income ), that does not mean they should cheat. Employees are entitled to expenses too. Nobody should cheat on expenses. However my brothers point about the PAYE allowance is valid. Self employed do not have that allowance.

erictheviking1 · 27-02-2011 03:35PM

Your brother said????...oh well that must be right so!
Do you actually have any facts to post?

NWPat · 27-02-2011 03:47PM

gigino wrote: »

" In this country retiring public servants get a tax free "gratuity" of 18 months salary when they retire - enough on average to buy the guts of a couple of nice apartments in the busiest town on the lovely river Shannon http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=310830- as well as a pension of 50% of their finishing salary in the public service. The union heads - whose members mostly come from the public sector - in this little bankrupt country of 4 million pay themselves almost the same salary each as Barack Obama earns. Its not sustainable and is morally very wrong."

Maybe you or the poster The-Thing/kceire/insert name can explain public sector pension entitlements, for public servants retiring on completion of service in this country, in your own words.

Its not a state secret, and I would have thought anyone posting regarding PS pensions would inform themselves before making comments. However, seeing as you asked nicely:

A Civil Servant pays for/earns 1/80th of their final salary per each full year of service up to a maximum of 50%. So to get a full half salary pension they have to give a full 40 years of service. For new entrants to the Civil Service from now on the pension will be based on average earnings over their career, rather than their final salary.

erictheviking1 · 27-02-2011 04:04PM

I've come to the conclusion that gigino is quite obviously suffering from a psychosis.
His symptoms of being far far away from reality seem to suggest this.
Maybe a job or something to keep him and his other personalities busy would help.
Its entirely treatable if detected early but this lad seems to have been suffering from it for a couple of years. It may be too late for him.
http://www.deltaproject.ie/what_is_psychosis.html
This may help gigino/jimmmy/japer.:):)

noodler · 27-02-2011 04:37PM

kceire wrote: »

+1

the ill informed info out there is unreal, prooved simply by the fact that a poster above who by their own admission would be for PS cuts, didnt even know that PS staff contributed to their pension even before the Pension Levy.

not having a go at that poster btw, its just used to show that people dont actually know all the facts about PS staff.

I would be for PS cuts? I would be for cutting this outrageously high PS pay and pensions bill - more specifically.

I admit ignorance to the pre-Pension Levy contribution but it doesn't change anything if, after all these contributions, the fund is not self-sustaining.

kceire wrote: »

i know serious questions, dont go down well on here, but hers one :

whay are Local Authorites excluded from all calculations, is it because they are self sufficient or very close to self sufficient?

Heh, you know that sounds like "but its not just us...."

noodler · 27-02-2011 04:39PM

k_mac wrote: »

Who said I felt hard done by? My problem is with the plonkers who tell me I get my pension for free. Or who go on about their taxes paying my wage as if i should be grateful. It's not like I'm paid to do nothing. They get plenty in return from me.

Why are they not self-sustaining then?

Are the PS, as a whole, recieving more from their pensions than they put in?

You also get a DB pension by the way, don't you? They are pretty valuable and are becoming less and less common.

MagicSean · 27-02-2011 04:55PM

noodler wrote: »

Why are they not self-sustaining then?

Are the PS, as a whole, recieving more from their pensions than they put in?

You also get a DB pension by the way, don't you? They are pretty valuable and are becoming less and less common.

I'm not really interested in the PS as a whole. I can only speak for my own sector. And as far as I can make out it's pretty close to self sustaining these days.

noodler · 27-02-2011 05:00PM

k_mac wrote: »

I'm not really interested in the PS as a whole. I can only speak for my own sector. And as far as I can make out it's pretty close to self sustaining these days.

It isn't. It won't be until all DB schemes are abolished in all likelihood.

I care about the overall cost - I am not after your wages per se.

NWPat · 27-02-2011 07:31PM

noodler wrote: »

It isn't. It won't be until all DB schemes are abolished in all likelihood.

I care about the overall cost - I am not after your wages per se.

I'll say it again, because you don't appear to understand, the overall cost has already been reduced.. etc, etc, etc......

MagicSean · 27-02-2011 07:44PM

NWPat wrote: »

I'll say it again, because you don't appear to understand, the overall cost has already been reduced.. etc, etc, etc......

Severely reduced

noodler · 27-02-2011 08:41PM

NWPat wrote: »

I'll say it again, because you don't appear to understand, the overall cost has already been reduced.. etc, etc, etc......

k_mac wrote: »

Severely reduced

What contextless statements to make.

Not by enough to make them sustainable - that is the point the PS pay and pensions bill is bad enough without an impending pension timebomb in the future.

erictheviking1 · 27-02-2011 09:10PM

I can't believe this thread has gone on so long. I've been viewing it every so often for a laugh.
It seems to be a few middle class wind up merchants who have never worked in their lives inflaming people with misinformed posts and bull**** comments, people are falling for it and posting facts and stats. These points are totally ignored then the exact same inflammatory and bull**** comments are posted again....and again....and again...by the same posters who say they pay everyones wages and are single handedly saving our economy. These posters post on here 24/7 so its quite obvious they don't work and if they do they should be f***ing sacked for being lazy b******s!
I think too there are people pretending to be public sector. I doubt very much if Public sector workers can post on here from work, unless they are very high up it would be blocked.
Most of the people who complain are either in college, on the dole or only in the workforce a year or two. How the **** are you paying the public sectors wages??
Students make me laugh. They moan constantly about everything while they avail of free college courses courtesy of the taxpayers they pretend to be. Hilarious!
Get real kiddies. Get a job, you all have too much time on your hands.

noodler · 27-02-2011 09:24PM

erictheviking1 wrote: »

I can't believe this thread has gone on so long. I've been viewing it every so often for a laugh.
It seems to be a few middle class wind up merchants who have never worked in their lives inflaming people with misinformed posts and bull**** comments, people are falling for it and posting facts and stats. These points are totally ignored then the exact same inflammatory and bull**** comments are posted again....and again....and again...by the same posters who say they pay everyones wages and are single handedly saving our economy. These posters post on here 24/7 so its quite obvious they don't work and if they do they should be f***ing sacked for being lazy b******s!
I think too there are people pretending to be public sector. I doubt very much if Public sector workers can post on here from work, unless they are very high up it would be blocked.
Most of the people who complain are either in college, on the dole or only in the workforce a year or two. How the **** are you paying the public sectors wages??
Students make me laugh. They moan constantly about everything while they avail of free college courses courtesy of the taxpayers they pretend to be. Hilarious!
Get real kiddies. Get a job, you all have too much time on your hands.

Right - thanks for the contribution.

However, the various political parties, the voting people of this country, the EU/IMF etc all think it is an issue so your point of stop debating it is a little naive - in fact I'd go as far as to say that somebody wanting the issue swept under the rug would have an agenda.

Why on earth do you assume students are the only ones on this thread? Why on earth would you think their views wouldn't matter either?

Hell, how the hell are you able to know the occupations of the posters in this thread?

gigino · 27-02-2011 09:57PM

NWPat wrote: »

A Civil Servant pays for/earns 1/80th of their final salary per each full year of service up to a maximum of 50%. So to get a full half salary pension they have to give a full 40 years of service.
.

40 years ; not always true. Gardai for example, can retire on full pension after only 30 years service. Judges are even less. And do not forget the lucrative lump sum "gratuity", of eighteen months pay tax free.

NWPat wrote: »

For new entrants to the Civil Service from now on the pension will be based on average earnings over their career, rather than their final salary.

Lets worry about the cost of public service pensions in the noughties, tens, twenties, thirties etc before worrying about paying the pensions of people starting in the public service now, most of whom will not retire for another 30 or 40 years.
The fact that "For new entrants to the Civil Service from now on the pension will be based on average earnings over their career, rather than their final salary." shows the government acknowledges there is a problem with the cost of present public service pensions.

sollar · 27-02-2011 10:21PM

erictheviking1 wrote: »

It seems to be a few middle class wind up merchants who have never worked in their lives inflaming people with misinformed posts and bull**** comments, people are falling for it and posting facts and stats. These points are totally ignored then the exact same inflammatory and bull**** comments are posted again....and again....and again...by the same posters who say they pay everyones wages and are single handedly saving our economy.

So true, i've been looking at similar threads over the past while. Its as if we are in some sort of time warp. Points are made and just ignored.... as if nobody takes on any new info at all.

erictheviking1 wrote: »

These posters post on here 24/7 so its quite obvious they don't work and if they do they should be f***ing sacked for being lazy b******s!.

I've wondered the same myself. What do these people do? Watch the traffic on this and similar threads from 9 to 5 tomorrow and you'll get a laugh.

gigino · 27-02-2011 11:46PM

noodler wrote: »

However, the various political parties, the voting people of this country, the EU/IMF etc all think it is an issue so your point of stop debating it is a little naive - in fact I'd go as far as to say that somebody wanting the issue swept under the rug would have an agenda.

+1. Obviously some - but not all - of those in receipt of large amounts of government money have a selfish wish / agenda in trying to continue this for as long as possible. And all the while when many people in Ireland question the waste in public expenditure, our government continues to borrow one and a half billion a month just to keep the show on the road.

erictheviking1 · 28-02-2011 12:12AM

gigino wrote: »

+1. Obviously some - but not all - of those in receipt of large amounts of government money have a selfish wish / agenda in trying to continue this for as long as possible. And all the while when many people in Ireland question the waste in public expenditure, our government continues to borrow one and a half billion a month just to keep the show on the road.

Dear God!!!!! Its like f***ing Groundhog Day!

erictheviking1 · 28-02-2011 12:26AM

noodler wrote: »

Right - thanks for the contribution.

However, the various political parties, the voting people of this country, the EU/IMF etc all think it is an issue so your point of stop debating it is a little naive - in fact I'd go as far as to say that somebody wanting the issue swept under the rug would have an agenda.

Why on earth do you assume students are the only ones on this thread? Why on earth would you think their views wouldn't matter either?

Hell, how the hell are you able to know the occupations of the posters in this thread?

Who said anything about brushing it under the carpet? Debating seems to be irrelevent on here. The same crap is posted over and over. As for an agenda? It seems only posters like you have an agenda.
For instance, since this PS crap came up, pay cuts have been dished out. Pension levies have been charged, pensions have been changed for new entrants and existing pensions have been cut.This hasn't even been acknowledged by posters on here who are still posting the same outdated posts over and over. Not everyone has massive pensions. My Grandad, a humble binman had a pension which was less than a state pension. He'd have been financially better off if he sat on his ass for 50 years instead of working. I wouldn't mind but some of you really haven't a clue and are posting absolute rubbish! Then calling other people naive:rolleyes:
BTW most posters on here are students. I suspect you know that already:)

colsmiff · 28-02-2011 12:36AM

@erictheviking

DONT FEED THE TROLLS!

How dare professional workers expect to earn a salary with which to pay their pre-crash commitments and be able to feed their families at the same time- now if only we were bondholders

gigino · 28-02-2011 01:26AM

erictheviking1 wrote: »

BTW most posters on here are students. I suspect you know that already:)

As someone else asked you already "Why on earth do you assume students are the only ones on this thread? Why on earth would you think their views wouldn't matter either?

Hell, how the hell are you able to know the occupations of the posters in this thread? "

You still have not answered that. I do not recall anyone saying they were a student. Student life was never mentioned much, although I do recall saying that students in 3rd level should have to pay higher fees, to lessen the burden on the taxpayer. Some at least of the people on this thread are public servants.

Instead of attacking posters / making comments about your perceived notions of them, perhaps you would comment more on why we still are one of the highest paid / pensioned public services in the world, despite living in one of the most bankrupt countries in the world.

MagicSean · 28-02-2011 10:54AM

noodler wrote: »

What contextless statements to make.

Not by enough to make them sustainable - that is the point the PS pay and pensions bill is bad enough without an impending pension timebomb in the future.

Like I said. My pensions contributions will most likely cover all my payments when I retire for at least 10-12 years as well as my gratuuity. And that is a conservative estimate.

fliball123 · 28-02-2011 11:28AM

k_mac wrote: »

Severely reduced

It has been reduced but not by enough ..The tax take is dwindling guys...We cannot just keep taxing everyone..This is the crux..You know where I stand on the p.s cuts...its simple equation...If tax take is coming even after the drastic hikes of the last number of years...Does this not prove that this approach is not working..We cannot be spending what we are spending ..This was proved back in the 80s when we tried taxing the sh1t out of everyone...Have a guess when the last spate of emigration was...I will give you a hint it started with an 8 and ended in a tees

It was only when the gov in late 80s cut the gov spend did the country get back on track after nearly 12 years of a depression recession...

So as I say for every Euro not cut in ps wage and gov spend..We need to get it from tax...

But hey once you guys are happy thats all that matters

fliball123 · 28-02-2011 11:38AM

colsmiff wrote: »

@erictheviking

DONT FEED THE TROLLS!

How dare professional workers expect to earn a salary with which to pay their pre-crash commitments and be able to feed their families at the same time- now if only we were bondholders

So everyone needs to pay because you guys decided ah sure we will be grand lets buy a fcuk load of properties ... will you go and ask my ar$e the majority of people here debating the fact that the ps wage needs to be cut again...Sorry guys yes you had cuts but not enough when compared to tax take...and for a previous poster saying is this still going on ..yes it is ...Imagine 1.5 odd million people in the private sector wanting the gov to make some savings in what its spending in order to not to be taxed as much ....

As Jimmy Greaves used to say its a funny old game...gut the simple equation no matter who took what cuts...who fcuked up where ala fas, banks , regulators, gov etc...The simple brass tax is guys and it boils down to this..As I say I would like to see ps wage slashed but I can understand the ps standing thier ground as that is all I am doing..As the simple equation is as follows

Less expenditure (cuts) = less take imposed tax..

Every Economic commentator will tell you there is a direct collelation in this

But lets look at other maths

300k vs 1.5m
ps vs the private sector

who got over half the votes in this election ...FG why because the majority of the people would like to see ps wages cut and saving made instead of more taxes...

So it boils down to a your not touching my money fight..but hey it will be interesting to see how this pans out

Pharaoh1 · 28-02-2011 12:10PM

I'm as fed up of the repetition on these threads as much as anyone but until the situation is corrected the debate will go on.

It's pretty simple to solve but is there a will there to do it?

Firstly on the pay side - we know that our politicians, senior civil servants, semi-state chiefs, RTE presenters etc.... are grossly overpaid by any reasonable comparison ( I don't think there is any argument). This needs to be corrected using some form of appropriate benchmark system.
Then we need to ask if those on the lower range of salaries are over or underpaid and adjust. We can allow a cost of living adjustment v's comparable countries or not but lets have the same for everyone.
Not everyone would be completely happy but we would be as close to proper pay levels as you could probably get.

On pensions we again know that politicians for example are not making anything like a proper contribution to their pensions - we need to change that. A thorough actuarial study would reveal whether the numerous grades in the PS are making a fair contribution. Lets agree on a 5% or 10% "employer" contribution - same for everyone. My suspicion would be that the very lowest paid are overpaying and that the middle and upper grades are underpaying but lets see.
Set the new pay levels and the new pension contributions (allow some period of adjustment but not too long)
Job done and we can close up threads like this and stop the bickering.

ardmacha · 28-02-2011 02:28PM

Pharaoh1 what you are really calling for is a fair and honest benchmarking type process. Not a "give out money" process like the Bertie Aherne one, nor a "cut everything" process like some of the more bloodthirsty posters here.

MagicSean · 28-02-2011 02:35PM

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

I'm as fed up of the repetition on these threads as much as anyone but until the situation is corrected the debate will go on.

It's pretty simple to solve but is there a will there to do it?

Firstly on the pay side - we know that our politicians, senior civil servants, semi-state chiefs, RTE presenters etc.... are grossly overpaid by any reasonable comparison ( I don't think there is any argument). This needs to be corrected using some form of appropriate benchmark system.
Then we need to ask if those on the lower range of salaries are over or underpaid and adjust. We can allow a cost of living adjustment v's comparable countries or not but lets have the same for everyone.
Not everyone would be completely happy but we would be as close to proper pay levels as you could probably get.

On pensions we again know that politicians for example are not making anything like a proper contribution to their pensions - we need to change that. A thorough actuarial study would reveal whether the numerous grades in the PS are making a fair contribution. Lets agree on a 5% or 10% "employer" contribution - same for everyone. My suspicion would be that the very lowest paid are overpaying and that the middle and upper grades are underpaying but lets see.
Set the new pay levels and the new pension contributions (allow some period of adjustment but not too long)
Job done and we can close up threads like this and stop the bickering.

Unfortunately nobody seems willing to take this approach. It's too much work.

Pharaoh1 · 28-02-2011 05:48PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Pharaoh1 what you are really calling for is a fair and honest benchmarking type process. Not a "give out money" process like the Bertie Aherne one, nor a "cut everything" process like some of the more bloodthirsty posters here.

On the pay element we hear simplistic populist nonsense from Sinn Fein such as no PS should earn more than 100k and similar from Vincent Browne about politicians working for the avg industrial wage. If people were properly paid it would also put an end to this stuff.

Equally on the pension side the govt must realize that if the clerical officer working in the local factory sees his neighbour the clerical officer in the council office across the road retire at 60 while he/she works on until 66 (or 68) this is going to cause ongoing resentment. Whatever about making an allowance for say the nursing profession it is going to be increasingly difficult to justify this differential for the majority in the PS.

Yes there are a number on this site who have an irrational anti PS bias but I think the vast majority would be happy to see a fair approach along the lines I have outlined.

The massive irony in all of this is that the Labour party the self proclaimed champions of fairness and equity will do most to preserve the status quo and resist any of the type changes I suggest.
Maybe they will surprise me - I think not.
Their overriding view that anything to do with government is good and must be protected and enriched at all costs comes a big first and fairness and equity only come into it when this interest has been well looked after.

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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