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anyone here going to vote sinn féin?

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Comments

  • #2882
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    I agree, sometimes violence is needed. But millionss of Irish people north and south refused to join or support the IRA. They made very plain their disgust at the IRA and its supporters time and time and time again over the course of the Troubles. But despite claiming to represent all Irish people, they continued right up to 2006.

    As to the issue of Adams's membership of the IRA, I direct you towards the following:

    http://irishrepublicanarmy-ira.blogspot.com/
    http://hubpages.com/hub/Brendan-Hughes
    English, Richard (2003). Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA. Pan Books. p. 110. ISBN 978-0-330-49388-8.
    Moloney, Ed (2002). A Secret History of the IRA. Penguin Books. p. 140. ISBN 978-0-14-101041-0.
    O'Brien, Brendan (1999). The Long War: The IRA and Sinn Féin. O'Brien Press. p. 130. ISBN 978-0-86278-606-9.
    The long war: the IRA and Sinn Féin, Brendan O'Brien, p169. Books.google.co.uk. 1999. ISBN 978-0-8156-0597-3. http://books.google.com/?id=Io085Nl0CJQC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=ira+delegation+myles+shevlin+william+whitelaw&q=ira%20delegation%20myles%20shevlin%20william%20whitelaw.
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/sinn-fein-where-does-the-money-come-from-168228.html
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2288775.stm

    Despite threatening to sue dozens of people who claimed he was in the IRA, Adams has in fact never brought such a case to court.

    That doesn't prove he's a murderer. That just proves he was a member. Like I said, he could have been the tea maker for all we know. I want you to show me one solid fact that he was, in some way, either directly by ordering the attacks (or attack or whatever you want to call it) on at least one human or I'm just going to chalk it up to your opinion.

    And quite frankly, even if he is/was a member, unless we know for a fact that he was breaking the law by harming others, to me, he's just some guy that's part of the group. It's like that one lonely kid that just hangs out with the kids that drink and smoke and is the driver at the end of the night; he just likes them but doesn't want to do it himself.

    And we do all make empty threats. I for one was often threatened by my mother as a child that she'd kill me but she hasn't done it.


  • #2883
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    So was John Hume, Albert Reynolds, Mo Molam, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair ...
    Only two murderers and a lying scumbag pedophilia facilitator in that list.


  • #2884
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    So was John Hume, Albert Reynolds, Mo Molam, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair ...

    He was the MOST important part .


  • #2885
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    Meaning that SF members did not stand by. So, what did they do to counter such acts?

    we know what nationalists had to do , we would like to know what you did ?


  • #2886
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Stop backtracking. You told me he was at fault for the murder of other humans. I want you to backup this fact, otherwise it's just an opinion you have which is obviously, not based on facts as you can't show me any.

    I don't think I'm backtracking. I'm clearly stating that in supporting the IRA he was supporting the murder of some 1700 people, many of whom were Irish.


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  • #2887
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    danbohan wrote: »
    we know what nationalists had to do

    Which was ... what?


  • #2888
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    gsxr1 wrote: »
    He was the MOST important part .

    Really? Gee, I seem to remember John Hume doing a LOT of the work early on, and getting roundly abused for it.


  • #2889
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Only two murderers and a lying scumbag pedophilia facilitator in that list.

    Given Adams family history, I don't think you should raise the subject of pedophilia facilitation.


  • #2890
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    I don't think I'm backtracking. I'm clearly stating that in supporting the IRA he was supporting the murder of some 1700 people, many of whom were Irish.

    Oh but you are backtracking, a lot.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70870561&postcount=2865

    Check that post. You said if he was indeed a member that he'd have carried our or directed crimes for the IRA which resulted in murder.

    Explain to me, where, how and in what manner he is guilty of the crime of murder when we have no proof beyond speculation.


  • #2891
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Amazing how you just quote one little bit of my post and don't address the rest of it. I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter but I can think clearly.

    Really?


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  • #2892
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Oh but you are backtracking, a lot.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70870561&postcount=2865

    Check that post. You said if he was indeed a member that he'd have carried our or directed crimes for the IRA which resulted in murder.

    Explain to me, where, how and in what manner he is guilty of the crime of murder when we have no proof beyond speculation.

    Exactly. I said IF he was a member (as you believe him to have been), then he must have participated in IRA actions, many of which resulted in murder.


  • #2893
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    :rolleyes:
    Adrian009 wrote: »
    Which was ... what?

    grow up , and answer some of the question you were asked


  • #2894
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    danbohan wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    grow up , and answer some of the question you were asked

    Such as?


  • #2895
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    Given Adams family history, I don't think you should raise the subject of pedophilia facilitation.
    Oh, I see, it's a crime to be related to a criminal? What is this, 4000BC?


  • #2896
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    Exactly. I said IF he was a member (as you believe him to have been), then he must have participated in IRA actions, many of which resulted in murder.

    Wrong. I am a member of the IRA, do I murder people? No, I just sit down with them and make the tea.

    See how wrong you are?


  • #2897
    The Brigadier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭The Brigadier


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Wrong. I am a member of the IRA, do I murder people? No, I just sit down with them and make the tea.

    See how wrong you are?

    Are you seriously claiming to be a member of the IRA?


  • #2898
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,392 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    Such as?
    The one I asked you for instance.


  • #2899
    gsxr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    Adrian.

    You are grasping at straws here. The two word replies like "can you" show a weak stance .

    What you should be criticizing here is the current policies that SF are promoting instead of pointing out silly tales about Mr Adams family history.


  • #2900
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Wrong. I am a member of the IRA, do I murder people? No, I just sit down with them and make the tea.

    See how wrong you are?

    Can't remember any IRA statement to that effect, and I heard a lot over the years ...

    Look, I take the view that support of an illegal organisation, who's main activity was murder, is wrong. Especially so if you are the president of a democratic party. I don't know how plainer I can put it.


  • #2901
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    The Brigadier wrote: »
    Are you seriously claiming to be a member of the IRA?

    he is , nows your chance , get on the phone to mi5 at once , !


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  • #2902
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    eagle eye wrote: »
    The one I asked you for instance.

    Which was ..?


  • #2903
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 95,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Nodin wrote: »
    Considering the amount of Nazi/BNP comparisons thrown out in the thread, I was under the impression thats what most were at already.
    SF are nationalists and socialists
    and the Nazis were National Socialists :pac:

    But year chalk and cheese.


  • #2904
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    The Brigadier wrote: »
    Are you seriously claiming to be a member of the IRA?

    I was using a scenario to prove a point... :rolleyes:
    Adrian009 wrote: »
    Can't remember any IRA statement to that effect, and I heard a lot over the years ...

    Look, I take the view that support of an illegal organisation, who's main activity was murder, is wrong. Especially so if you are the president of a democratic party. I don't know how plainer I can put it.

    You have nothing but an opinion, without any facts at all. I respect the right to have an opinion but having a blinding hate without reason is what you have for SF for some reason and as such, I honestly don't get why you're so adamant to make him out to be some sort of evil person.
    And the main activity of the IRA was not murder... Though I'm sure that slogan would be great: "Join us, kill someone and get the counties back!".


  • #2905
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    gsxr1 wrote: »
    Adrian.

    You are grasping at straws here. The two word replies like "can you" show a weak stance .

    What you should be criticizing here is the current policies that SF are promoting instead of pointing out silly tales about Mr Adams family history.

    You're right, I should.
    Instead, what I'm doing is repeating the evasion tactics I have faced time and again every time I raise these issues with SF supporters. Glad to know you too find them tiresome!

    Actually I find a great many Sinn Fein policys that I like and support. I would vote for their candidates but for its support for the IRA. When the current leadership departs, maybe that will change.


  • #2906
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    I was using a scenario to prove a point... :rolleyes:
    You have nothing but an opinion, without any facts at all. I respect the right to have an opinion but having a blinding hate without reason is what you have for SF for some reason and as such, I honestly don't get why you're so adamant to make him out to be some sort of evil person.
    And the main activity of the IRA was not murder... Though I'm sure that slogan would be great: "Join us, kill someone and get the counties back!".

    Mr. Adams support for the IRA is not an opinion, it is fact. He has given it time and time again. SF sell IRA memorablia on their website. And, despite the fact that I admire and support many of SF's policys, I cannot vote for a party who's leadership includes a man who supported the IRA, and at least two high-ranking IRA members. What is so hard to understand about that?


  • #2907
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    Mr. Adams support for the IRA is not an opinion, it is fact. He has given it time and time again. SF sell IRA memorablia on their website. And, despite the fact that I admire and support many of SF's policys, I cannot vote for a party who's leadership includes a man who supported the IRA, and at least two high-ranking IRA members. What is so hard to understand about that?

    I understand the first part perfectly. But how on Earth can you associate supporting something with joining that group and engaging in criminal activities? If I'm pro choice does that mean I go around aborting babies?
    All you are doing is making it out that supporting = joining in and muderering.


  • #2908
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    I understand the first part perfectly. But how on Earth can you associate supporting something with joining that group and engaging in criminal activities? If I'm pro choice does that mean I go around aborting babies?
    All you are doing is making it out that supporting = joining in and muderering.

    I never stated that "supporting = joining in". Other people far better informed have made those allegations.

    Supporting an organisation that murdered Irish people is supporting those murders. How can supporting murder be okay?


  • #2909
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    just noticed the time. Night all.


  • #2910
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    Adrian009 wrote: »
    I never stated that "supporting = joining in". Other people far better informed have made those allegations.

    Supporting an organisation that murdered Irish people is supporting those murders. How can supporting murder be okay?

    Wrong, just stop it now. Seriously, you're not even grasping at straws any more. Your arguments are null and void.

    You stated: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70870561&postcount=2865

    You now stated that he just "supported" them. Make up your mind on what you are trying to do: slander him by saying he allowed murder to take place and would order it, making him an accessory to murder or you believe that he was supporting murder by refusing to distant himself from the IRA.

    Just saw your little night post.

    Just so we can wrap this up: how about we agree that I think he was a part of it but it doesn't matter to me since he's not the same man he was then. You on the other hand believe if he did indeed have a place in the IRA he was on some level, accepting that he would allow (we won't say support as I'm not 100% sure if you feel that way) the IRA to engage in crimes such as murder, and by extention was accepting that it was acceptable to allow Irish people ot be murdered?


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  • #2911
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    What social welfare payments did they say they'd increase?
    Any chance you'll explain how taxing an asset over €1m would bankrupt a company? If you take 0.5% of €1m then they've nothing left? Great sums!

    It's all in their manifesto which I read before deciding not to vote for them. Did you not read it yourself?
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/SF_GeneralElectionManifesto2011.pdf

    Here's some bits:
    Restore the minimum wage at €8.65
    an hour.

    Immediately return social welfare
    payments to 2010 levels, and as soon as
    economic conditions permit raise them
    further to ensure adequate incomes (no
    one below the poverty line).

    Restore the Christmas Bonus social
    welfare payment.

    Restore Child Benefit to 2010 levels.

    As for the assets tax: think about a small business struggling in the current climate to keep open and keep people in work. Many of these small businesses will have assets worth over €1m - a garage, workshop, small office, warehouse, storage facility. These are assets they need for work, they are not some pot of gold they have access to. They are a tool of that company.

    SF come along and say "ok guys, the min wage is going up, and we're going to tax the things you need to run your company, the asset you run your business from".

    What do you think will happen?


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