I f*cking love Irish People (FG Facebook)

Dr. Baltar · 22-02-2011 07:50PM #1

Just got linked to the Fine Gael Facebook Page here where hundreds of Irish people straight and gay are attacking the party about their stance on SSM and are having their comments deleted only to ask again. It's chaos in there.

SamSamSammy · 22-02-2011 08:00PM

do you love them because they're stupid? complain about fine gael then vote them into government LOL

Donnaghm · 22-02-2011 09:37PM

Again, as an FG voter and activist, I'm really pissed off about this. But the economy is my first priority. We'll have to put up with Civil Partnership only for 5 years. Irish society is changing so much, I've no doubt Gay Marriage would pass in a referendum no problem by that stage.

liah · 22-02-2011 09:50PM

Donnaghm wrote: »

Again, as an FG voter and activist, I'm really pissed off about this. But the economy is my first priority. We'll have to put up with Civil Partnership only for 5 years. Irish society is changing so much, I've no doubt Gay Marriage would pass in a referendum no problem by that stage.

On what planet is the economy more important than human rights issues?

Annasopra · 22-02-2011 09:54PM

liah wrote: »

On what planet is the economy more important than human rights issues?

The Fine Gael planet - They are conservatives after all

Monty Burnz · 22-02-2011 09:54PM

liah wrote: »

On what planet is the economy more important than human rights issues?

Nobody will die because they have to put up with civil partnerships instead of marriage. People WILL die because they can't get a job because the economy is screwed or because they can't get the treatment they need.

On what planet is a piece of paper more important than human life?

*I also support SSM

Donnaghm · 22-02-2011 10:17PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Nobody will die because they have to put up with civil partnerships instead of marriage. People WILL die because they can't get a job because the economy is screwed or because they can't get the treatment they need.

On what planet is a piece of paper more important than human life?

*I also support SSM

Well said Monty, equality for LGBT people is inevitable in the near future, Economic recovery on the other hand is far far from certain.

Donnaghm · 22-02-2011 10:21PM

Johnnymcg wrote: »

The Fine Gael planet - They are conservatives after all

Economicaly conservative anyway, by that I mean scraping the Croke Park deal, balancing the budget by 2014-15, keeping taxes down, making the public service more efficient, stop the endless waste!

Labour are too dependent on Unions and Union members to carry out the about necessities for national survival.

Naturally, I'm quite socially Liberal but those issues do not take priority for me at this time.

Apogee · 22-02-2011 10:56PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Nobody will die because they have to put up with civil partnerships instead of marriage. People WILL die because they can't get a job because the economy is screwed or because they can't get the treatment they need.

On what planet is a piece of paper more important than human life?

It's a matter of priorities, is it?

So while the children of same-sex couples, including those in civil partnerships, remain in legal limbo, Fine Gael somehow has time to legislate for the return of stag hunting.

Aard · 22-02-2011 11:04PM

Censorship ... content tax ... FG really don't like the internets huh?

Monty Burnz · 22-02-2011 11:15PM

Apogee wrote: »

So while the children of same-sex couples, including those in civil partnerships, remain in legal limbo, Fine Gael somehow has time to legislate for the return of stag hunting.

They haven't legislated for anything yet. I support SSM and I will be raising it with any FG politician I speak to, but they are not going to do anything about it unless a) they know people feel strongly about it and b) they know they will alienate fewer people by introducing it than they will by ignoring it.

The point I'm trying to make is that 10 years ago, or 5, this could have been an election issue and a priority, but with 450,000 on the dole and the country on the point of collapse, other things will predominate.

bodice ripper · 22-02-2011 11:15PM

Donnaghm wrote: »

Well said Monty, equality for LGBT people is inevitable in the near future, Economic recovery on the other hand is far far from certain.

And if the two were connected you might actually have a point

if your tribal council has nailed their colors to the mast on an issue that might cost them votes, rather than asking the people who will suffer to keep it down, maybe you should take it up with your party...

ninty9er · 22-02-2011 11:23PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

People WILL die because they can't get a job because the economy is screwed or because they can't get the treatment they need[/SIZE]

Slippery slope argument. People die in hospitals in the best health systems in the world. Ireland is where it is because most people were too concerned with the economy and being consumers and not enough about society.

Look at Japan. Lesson learned there.

Annasopra · 22-02-2011 11:48PM

Apogee wrote: »

It's a matter of priorities, is it?

So while the children of same-sex couples, including those in civil partnerships, remain in legal limbo, Fine Gael somehow has time to legislate for the return of stag hunting.

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Coeurdepirate · 23-02-2011 12:10AM

Donnaghm wrote: »

Again, as an FG voter and activist, I'm really pissed off about this. But the economy is my first priority. We'll have to put up with Civil Partnership only for 5 years. Irish society is changing so much, I've no doubt Gay Marriage would pass in a referendum no problem by that stage.

liah wrote: »

On what planet is the economy more important than human rights issues?

I'd also like to argue that human rights issues would be more important, near-equality isn't equality

TylerIE · 23-02-2011 12:29AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Nobody will die because they have to put up with civil partnerships instead of marriage. People WILL die because they can't get a job because the economy is screwed or because they can't get the treatment they need.

On what planet is a piece of paper more important than human life?

*I also support SSM

Your post infuriates me!

ITs not just a piece of paper. ITs passive Legitimate governmental discrimination. Its saying to a sizeable minority of people "flip you, ya can wait".

If we get rid of the legal discrimination we might start seeing young people and teenagers who genuinely find it ok to be gay. There has been some positive changes but nowhere near enough.

I personally know two families of boys in their teens who died by suicide in the last year. One of my politicians (when I rang him about the issue of SSM) mentioned another less than 25km away. And you say a piece of paper doesnt save lives?

The big issue for a lot of my "Straight" (but gay really) friends is that being gay currently = no wife, 2.1 kids, big house with a dog. Therefore they have the girlfriend and live with it - with them being unhappy and the gf falling in love with their nice bf, but knowing that there is just something not right. Perhaps that piece of paper would allow the husband, 2.1 kids, big house and a dog.

Its not going to stop the government dealing with the economy if they allow SSM. Indeed much of the american research suggests it could be good for the economy.

anotherlostie · 23-02-2011 12:32AM

A comment by an individual FG politician on the issue would not influence my voting decision on Friday. I too am in the camp that there are far more important issues at stake than gay marriage.

And I love how Labour followers are jumping on this bandwagon when Eamonn Gilmore highlighted the importance of this election at the start of the debate tonight in terms of how it will shape our economic future.

TylerIE · 23-02-2011 12:34AM

Donnaghm wrote: »

Well said Monty, equality for LGBT people is inevitable in the near future, Economic recovery on the other hand is far far from certain.

Ah shur here we have our priorities wrong in every developing country in the world. Let the locals be, who cares if they live in poor conditions and children are abused and have no schools.

The most important thing is to get the economies sorted out! Shur children in the future will get their rights!

And we all know that if we changed it to Discrimination on the grounds of race... or gender... what the case would be - I darent even substitute the word gay in gay rights for [X ethnic origin] rights...

Darton · 23-02-2011 12:40AM

Please Ireland don't vote enda in he is not the man to lead us out of this
Mess he is not a leader we need REAL change

Monty Burnz · 23-02-2011 12:48AM

lst wrote: »

Ah shur here we have our priorities wrong in every developing country in the world. Let the locals be, who cares if they live in poor conditions and children are abused and have no schools.

The most important thing is to get the economies sorted out! Shur children in the future will get their rights!

And we all know that if we changed it to Discrimination on the grounds of race... or gender... what the case would be - I darent even substitute the word gay in gay rights for [X ethnic origin] rights...

I think that you will find that - empirically - economic development precedes social development. The wealthiest countries have typically been the most socially advanced. Education seems to play a rather important role in broadening minds.

To be honest though, I've no idea what your point is.

deirdre_dub · 23-02-2011 12:50AM

Donnaghm wrote: »

Well said Monty, equality for LGBT people is inevitable in the near future, Economic recovery on the other hand is far far from certain.

Do you believe that the rights that LGBT people have gained over the past few decades cannot be reversed?

There is a definite danger that a conservative government that puts the economy / the church / popular opinion / homophobia / transphobia before human rights could end up reversing the rights that have been gained.

The economy is a human rights issue. Education, health care, law and order, justice - all these are human rights issues. Pretty much everything important that a government does is a human rights issue. Any government that doesn't have a good attitude towards human rights scares me.

FG scares me. FF scares me.

Annasopra · 23-02-2011 12:57AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I think that you will find that - empirically - economic development precedes social development. The wealthiest countries have typically been the most socially advanced.

Really? where is this empiric evidence?

Monty Burnz · 23-02-2011 12:59AM

lst wrote: »

Your post infuriates me!

I'm sorry to hear that.

lst wrote: »

ITs not just a piece of paper. ITs passive Legitimate governmental discrimination. Its saying to a sizeable minority of people "flip you, ya can wait".

I appreciate that it's not just a piece of paper - it's just that we seem to be reducing complex arguments to cartoonishly simple ones so I was just joining in the fun.

lst wrote: »

If we get rid of the legal discrimination we might start seeing young people and teenagers who genuinely find it ok to be gay. There has been some positive changes but nowhere near enough.

I'm not LGBT myself, and everyone's experiences will be different, but I'm not sure that the existence of same sex marriage would make a huge difference to teenagers who are LGBT. I would imagine that an accepting society and the support of family and friends would be a greater concern.

lst wrote: »

I personally know two families of boys in their teens who died by suicide in the last year. One of my politicians (when I rang him about the issue) mentioned a third less than 25km away. And you say a piece of paper doesnt save lives?

These boys died because there is no SSM? Were they even gay? Please. This discussion is a bit distasteful - almost like keeping scores - but I think that anyone who stops to think about it will realise that more people will die because of economic hardship than due the existence of civil partnerships rather than SSM.

lst wrote: »

The big issue for a lot of my "Straight" (but gay really) friends is that being gay currently = no wife, 2.1 kids, big house with a dog. Therefore they have the girlfriend and live with it - with them being unhappy and the gf falling in love with their nice bf, but knowing that there is just something not right. Perhaps that piece of paper would allow the husband, 2.1 kids, big house and a dog.

So there is a large cohort of gay men out there who are marrying women rather than men because they are more concerned with having a marriage license than the gender of their spouse

lst wrote: »

Its not going to stop the government dealing with the economy if they allow SSM. Indeed much of the american research suggests it could be good for the economy.

I agree with this point. As I said earlier, it is up to those of us who think that SSM is a good thing to change their policies. They won't do it if they are not asked to.

Apogee · 23-02-2011 01:00AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They haven't legislated for anything yet. I support SSM and I will be raising it with any FG politician I speak to, but they are not going to do anything about it unless a) they know people feel strongly about it and b) they know they will alienate fewer people by introducing it than they will by ignoring it.

The point I'm trying to make is that 10 years ago, or 5, this could have been an election issue and a priority, but with 450,000 on the dole and the country on the point of collapse, other things will predominate.

Stag hunting is in the FG manifesto. Provision for the children of same-sex couples isn't. So people can draw their own conclusions as to which things "will predominate" according to FG.

Monty Burnz · 23-02-2011 01:02AM

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Really? where is this empiric evidence?

You name 30 poverty-stricken countries with advanced social attitudes (including LGBT rights) and I'll name 30 rich ones with advanced social attitudes. Will that do you as empirical evidence?

Chuchoter · 23-02-2011 01:02AM

You know, in spite of my normal support of FG, this has changed my mind, and it seems to be the consensus among most FG TDs. It disappoints me that if you want basic equality, you are backed into a corner where there is only one viable party and to be honest, if FG are this dead set against gay marriage, I fear for what they will do to other LGBT issues.

TylerIE · 23-02-2011 01:02AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I think that you will find that - empirically - economic development precedes social development. The wealthiest countries have typically been the most socially advanced. Education seems to play a rather important role in broadening minds.

To be honest though, I've no idea what your point is.

My point - probably not as clear as it should have been - is that where do we stop if we say forget human rights and focus on the economy.

I agree fully with your point on economic development coming first. ( Geoffrey Sachs (the End of Poverty) did that for me.

However in this case sorting the economy and SSM are not mutually exclusive. And its not altogether as unimportant as many of ye are making out. The damage has been done as regards governmental discrimination for many of my generation, the longer SSM is delayed the more injustice is being done. The damage has not been done to my generation with regard to the economy (and I say that with two of my closest friends having literally just landed in Sydney today, and a third friend currently in the air on the way there)

Its something that is being ignored because its something that will lose as many votes for a party as it would gain. The parties know (and the two of my local candidates who I got speaking to at length, both said) that its an issue that would lose them the conservative mass going vote - and that for the few votes it would gain it wouldnt be worth it - the old biddies are the reliable voters, particularly when many of them were FF and will now either be looking for a new party - or need all the convincing they can get to stay!

Annasopra · 23-02-2011 01:04AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You name 30 poverty-stricken countries with advanced social attitudes (including LGBT rights) and I'll name 30 rich ones with advanced social attitudes. Will that do you as empirical evidence?

not particularly - you mentioned something vague and then threw in empirically just to make it sound as if you had a point

Monty Burnz · 23-02-2011 01:05AM

Apogee wrote: »

Stag hunting is in the FG manifesto. Provision for the children of same-sex couples isn't. So people can draw their own conclusions as to which things "will predominate" according to FG.

This isn't rocket science...the bulk of the population doesn't care about it, they are more worried about putting food on the table and keeping a roof over their heads. It is up to those who do care to get the changes made.

Stag-hunting and any other stuff in their manifesto is a complete red herring in this discussion.

Chuchoter · 23-02-2011 01:08AM

Is it a red herring? Is equality that low on the FG agenda that stag hunting gets a mention instead of it?

Monty Burnz · 23-02-2011 01:08AM

Johnnymcg wrote: »

not particularly - you mentioned something vague and then threw in empirically just to make it sound as if you had a point

So you think there is no connection between economic and social development? If I wasn't so tired I'd dig up some papers, but at present I'll just ask you to make a positive argument instead of just rubbishing mine.

Why do you think there is no relationship between social and economic development, and can you provide evidence for your position?

I f*cking love Irish People (FG Facebook)

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