A vote for Labour is a vote for Abortion - Iona Institute

MaceFace · 20-02-2011 12:27PM

oceanclub wrote: »

Eh? What this mythical position on Israel that Catholics share?

P.

Mythical?
I would guess that the vast majority of Catholic Irish have no issues with the existence of the Israeli state. Those in public positions are privately against many of the things that are happening there but they don't dare say anything too controversial for fear of upsetting those that flat out defend Israel no matter what.

A Muslim may be much more knowledgeable about the entire history of the region and have religious beliefs that want to see Israel out of certain parts of not just the occupied territory but also see it give up part of all of the territory that many of us would not care about.

To believe that deeply religious people (whichever religion) can remain objective on issues that go against their religious beliefs is just plain daft.
How someone can suggest that a leader that is deeply against abortion will approach the issue with as open a mind as someone who believes in pro-choice is fictional.

Min · 20-02-2011 12:41PM

The problem with Labour is they want a whole new constitution, what they say now is what the court in Europe should be allowed as per the Supreme court case - which any new government has to legislate for to make it law.
However a new constitution would open up the whole debate and that is where the question marks are.
Labour would no longer be bound by the constitution in what they can support.

Of course a new constitution would have to be passed by the people and this is an issue that could stop it in it's track, so Labour who have people like Ivana Bacik who wants abortion legalised are being restrained by the constitution even when it comes to what has to be legislated for.
Having listened to Ms Bacik on this issue, she would like a more liberal abortion system than what can be allowed.
Bacik is running for Labour and she has always said she wants abortion legalised - it will be more liberal than you support Bipedalhumaid, if she had the chance.

The only thing constraining the Labour party regarding abortion is the current constitution.

dark crystal · 20-02-2011 01:43PM

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Look, for some women it is. It's their right to feel that way and I don't understand why anyone (at least anyone who claims to be pro-choice) would want to suggest they ought to feel worse about it than they do. There are some women for whom it can be devastating, obviously, but this is usually linked not to the abortion itself but to the circumstances in which they had it. And childbirth too can have devastating consequences - ever heard of post-partum psychosis?

Sorry, where in my post did I suggest anyone ought to feel worse than they do already? Where?

And yes, I've heard of post partum psychosis - I had post natal depression myself. Doesn't mean I wish I had an abortion instead.

I wish people on both sides of the argument could at least agree that there are fair points to be argued for both pro life and pro choice and respect where each side is coming from.
Of course, there will be people who won't be swayed from their unerring views, but being pro life doesn't have to mean you are a religious zealot and being pro choice doesn't have to mean you don't have any compassion for the unborn.

I'm pro choice, simply because I understand and have compassion for a woman who finds herself in such a desperate predicament, that she can't conceive of raising a child for whatever reason. There are far too many bad parents out there already and I would rather see a pregnancy ended early, than see a child suffer at the hands of it's parents in any way.

However, I do understand where pro-lifer's are coming from, too. As a mum myself, it was a primal instinct to protect the life inside me when I got pregnant, because, yes, I do view the unborn as a baby, not merely a bunch of cells.
This does not mean I expect all women to share that view and I don't feel I have any right to dictate to them what they should do with their bodies.

Sometimes things aren't always as black and white as people like to make them out to be....

Irishgoatman · 20-02-2011 03:06PM

dark crystal wrote: »

Sorry, where in my post did I suggest anyone ought to feel worse than they do already? Where?

And yes, I've heard of post partum psychosis - I had post natal depression myself. Doesn't mean I wish I had an abortion instead.

I wish people on both sides of the argument could at least agree that there are fair points to be argued for both pro life and pro choice and respect where each side is coming from.
Of course, there will be people who won't be swayed from their unerring views, but being pro life doesn't have to mean you are a religious zealot and being pro choice doesn't have to mean you don't have any compassion for the unborn.

I'm pro choice, simply because I understand and have compassion for a woman who finds herself in such a desperate predicament, that she can't conceive of raising a child for whatever reason. There are far too many bad parents out there already and I would rather see a pregnancy ended early, than see a child suffer at the hands of it's parents in any way.

However, I do understand where pro-lifer's are coming from, too. As a mum myself, it was a primal instinct to protect the life inside me when I got pregnant, because, yes, I do view the unborn as a baby, not merely a bunch of cells.
This does not mean I expect all women to share that view and I don't feel I have any right to dictate to them what they should do with their bodies.

Sometimes things aren't always as black and white as people like to make them out to be....

Well said Dark Crystal,
If more people had your attitude and outlook there would be less fighting over this delicate subject.:)

Lockstep · 20-02-2011 03:11PM

Pro life groups campaigning against Labour in Galway West

Here

Irishgoatman · 20-02-2011 04:17PM

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Just a further thought that I meant to put in.

In the X case, if the anti-abortion people had got their way and the girl was forced to have the baby, the rapist, the father, would have been legally allowed to go to court and fight for custody of the child. would this have been acceptable to them ?. :eek:

I have been waiting for an anti-abortionist (I won't call them pro-life due to the fact that they would let a woman die for the sake of an unborn) to comment on this posting I put up a while ago. Lost for words or no answer that fits your outlook ?

theg81der · 20-02-2011 06:38PM

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I have been waiting for an anti-abortionist (I won't call them pro-life due to the fact that they would let a woman die for the sake of an unborn) to comment on this posting I put up a while ago. Lost for words or no answer that fits your outlook ?

Hard cases don`t make good law. And there is so few instances that the woman would die, if by die you mean commit suicide thats different and what you should have actually specified. How can you tell who is going to commit suicide exactly?

I have known quite a few girls who have had more than one abortion in alot of circumstance, that seems quite common. I have no experience of anyone fitting into your category. These were just selfish girls who thought it was all a joke, mind you I wouldn`t want them for a mother.

My thoughts are not fully ironed out on this issue and the older I get the more grey it gets but I want to see the root cause and attitudes tackled as a first measure.

Go into risk areas and categories and empower the girls so they educated and hopeful and don`t get pregnant in the first place. Have free contraception, like the implanon which last 3 years, give it out in schools

oceanclub · 20-02-2011 06:54PM

MaceFace wrote: »

Mythical?
I would guess that the vast majority of Catholic Irish have no issues with the existence of the Israeli state.

"You would guess?" Oh right, I guess I'd better take your word for it then. Can you tell me what percentage have no problem? "Catholic Ireland" only established diplomatic relations with Israel in 1975. Turkey recognised it in 1949.

P.

hogflem · 20-02-2011 06:57PM

Wasting your time Goatman,it's sunday,they've been to church,and now they're at home safely tucked away in the 1960's,where,any pregnant girl was simply handed over to the egregious care of the magdelene sisters,no nasty moral dilemmas,no family names sullied,the father/rapist kept his mouth shut and his head down and everyone was happy,bloody Labour,it's not christian I tell ya.

R28 · 20-02-2011 07:15PM

theg81der wrote: »

Go into risk areas and categories and empower the girls so they educated and hopeful and don`t get pregnant in the first place. Have free contraception, like the implanon which last 3 years, give it out in schools

Sadly the most irrational of the anti-abortion organisations,the Catholic Church actively opposes the sensible use of contraceptives.

They also control 90% + of the schools. I don't see your plan having any effect with the bunch of men in dresses still having so much control....

MaceFace · 21-02-2011 08:16AM

oceanclub wrote: »

"You would guess?" Oh right, I guess I'd better take your word for it then. Can you tell me what percentage have no problem? "Catholic Ireland" only established diplomatic relations with Israel in 1975. Turkey recognised it in 1949.

P.

I am not going to be dragged into a discussion that has nothing to do with either the original thread or how it has developed.

Let me ask it this way:
Over the last three weeks, has any of the candidates given their views about either how they feel about the entire Middle East question (specifically their views on Israel).
I have not heard them discuss it.
Now, if the candidate came out and said they were either Muslim or Jewish, do you think it would have been much more at the forefront?

Dandelion6 · 21-02-2011 09:32AM

dark crystal wrote: »

Sorry, where in my post did I suggest anyone ought to feel worse than they do already?

Where you said abortion shouldn't be considered just another medical procedure. Many of the factors that go to making women feel bad about abortions are caused by society's refusal to consider it just a medical procedure.

I had post natal depression myself. Doesn't mean I wish I had an abortion instead.

Where did I say you did? The point was that simply that childbirth can have the same, or worse, negative psychological consequences as those often attributed to abortion.

Dandelion6 · 21-02-2011 09:34AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats fair enough but if thats the only reason then why not adoption???

Did you read past the first six words of my post before replying?

Dandelion6 · 21-02-2011 09:49AM

Min wrote: »

personhood only exists because the embryo exists as the base

Adulthood only exists because of childhood. Does that give children all the rights of adults?

poker head · 21-02-2011 10:29AM

well know one in my house will be voting labour no fecking way.me and my little borther were adopted .thank god our brith mothers didnt have that choice or we might not be here now or my son.if a mothers life is in danger thats another story.

down with labour

meglome · 21-02-2011 10:31AM

I really hoped this bullshít thread would have gone away by now and I'm no supporter of Labour.

Zubeneschamali · 21-02-2011 10:33AM

poker head wrote: »

if a mothers life is in danger thats another story.

No, it isn't. It's the same story: we have no legislation to cover when abortion is legal, and Dana and friends want to keep it that way.

poker head · 21-02-2011 10:45AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, it isn't. It's the same story: we have no legislation to cover when abortion is legal, and Dana and friends want to keep it that way.

dana???

so when a 11 year old girl is raped and giving brith might kill her you will say ????what tell me

Zubeneschamali · 21-02-2011 10:52AM

poker head wrote: »

dana???

so when a 11 year old girl is raped and giving brith might kill her you will say ????what tell me

I wand the Dáil to legislate to allow abortion in this country, in line with the 1983 amendment to the Constitution.

Dana and various anti-abortion groups want the current legal confusion to continue.

poker head · 21-02-2011 11:05AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I wand the Dáil to legislate to allow abortion in this country, in line with the 1983 amendment to the Constitution.

Dana and various anti-abortion groups want the current legal confusion to continue.

when i said thats another story, i ment in my eyes,i was not stating laws.but look at the usa,teens gone wild on abortion its like a fashion accessories to them youre nobody if you didnt get one.crazy ,check it out brother if you think im telling lies.
youre on about dana from up north??a vote for sinn fein would sort her out haha

Reilly616 · 21-02-2011 11:45AM

theg81der wrote: »

f by die you mean commit suicide [then that's] different ...

Legally, it isn't.

GymJim · 21-02-2011 11:53AM

poker head wrote: »

when i said thats another story, i ment in my eyes,i was not stating laws.but look at the usa,teens gone wild on abortion its like a fashion accessories to them youre nobody if you didnt get one.crazy ,check it out brother if you think im telling lies.
youre on about dana from up north??a vote for sinn fein would sort her out haha

You're telling lies!

21-02-2011 05:40PM

theg81der wrote: »

Have free contraception, like the implanon which last 3 years, give it out in schools

Do you mean intrauterine devices? Those can prevent fertilisation, yes, but they can also prevent the implantation of the zygote (or blastocyst, by that stage).

21-02-2011 06:41PM

dark crystal wrote: »

There are far too many bad parents out there already and I would rather see a pregnancy ended early, than see a child suffer at the hands of it's parents in any way.

What about adoption? That'd at least give the mother of the baby the chance to pick herself up if she really cannot afford to have a child (financially and/or mentally), it'd make a couple very happy, and it'd give the baby a chance as well. The percentage of rogue adoptive parents (who abuse the child in whatever way) is believed to be very small:

Do adoptive parents ever abuse children? Experts believe that the rate of abuse among adoptive parents is extremely low. For example, the American Humane Association and also Richard Barth, in his essay in Adoption Policy and Special Needs Children, have estimated that abuse occurs in about 1% of adoptive families.

This low rate of abuse may be due to the fact that adoptive parents intensely desired to become parents and were also screened before they were able to achieve this goal. The home study process almost invariably includes a complete report from one's physician. A person with a serious problem, such as drug abuse or alcohol abuse, is likely to be detected. Individuals with a history of abuse or violence would also not be allowed to adopt a child.

Link to source.

Zubeneschamali · 21-02-2011 06:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What about adoption?

What about 9 months of pregnancy and then labour?

Godge · 21-02-2011 07:36PM

poker head wrote: »

when i said thats another story, i ment in my eyes,i was not stating laws.but look at the usa,teens gone wild on abortion its like a fashion accessories to them youre nobody if you didnt get one.crazy ,check it out brother if you think im telling lies.
youre on about dana from up north??a vote for sinn fein would sort her out haha

Eh, the USA? Last I heard, abortion rates in the US were going down sharply, a combination of rolling back Roe v Wade and better birth control, two ideas from opposite ends of the spectrum.

The David Quinns of this world are very dangerous people, the Irish equivalents of the Muslim Brotherhood, attempting to make religious laws into national laws.

21-02-2011 07:36PM

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I have been waiting for an anti-abortionist (I won't call them pro-life due to the fact that they would let a woman die for the sake of an unborn) to comment on this posting I put up a while ago. Lost for words or no answer that fits your outlook ?

I have to speak up on this one: most pro-lifers I know (myself included) would not rather that the mother died over the preborn if it came down to life and death.

In any situation where both lives are at stake, the greatest care needs to be given to both mother and baby. I've read that if it ultimately comes to a decision where greater care must be given to one over the other (and where, if this decision was not made, it is certain that both would die), care must be given to the mother. However, the final decision is usually reserved for the mother in such cases.

As an example:
Say the mother has an ectopic pregnancy. The baby is obviously going to die since no means exist to sustain infants of such a tiny size and at such an early (st)age in gestation. The mother will die if the fallopian tube holding the embryo is not removed. So the doctors remove the tube with the key intent being to save her life and the embryo dies.
This is not direct abortion and yet the mother's life is saved.

Another instance might be where the mother has uterine cancer and will die unless surgery to remove the tumour goes ahead. Say there are only two kinds of surgery that could go ahead: the first one being less effective in stopping the cancer but keeping the baby alive; the second being more effective in getting rid of the cancer but indirectly causing the death of the baby. The final decision is left with the mother, she chooses the more thorough surgery, and the baby dies.
Again, in such a case, no one is directly to blame for the baby's death and the mother's life is saved.

One case where the mother decided not to have the surgery that would indirectly result in her daughter's death is that of the Italian Gianna Molla, canonised by the Church in 2004. She died in the early sixties. I'm sure there are secular websites which mention her too.

All in all, indirect abortion is not the same as direct/deliberate abortion because the Principle of Double Effect comes into play in the former case.

(Man...how long have I spent typing this?!)

21-02-2011 08:05PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

What about 9 months of pregnancy and then labour?

No-one should have to go through that alone, especially if it's unplanned. There needs to be more support for women in such a situation. Perhaps a readjustment of funding would make it more bearable. (Though, yeah, I know, like the government is going to help out these women in these times...) Nonetheless, we are talking about another human life plus mother. Both ought to be protected.

Although going through nine months of pregnancy and labour may be a psychological burden for many women, there are also plenty of women in distress thanks to abortion. Granted, some women may not think much of hopping across the pond and having someone terminate the life of their embryos/foetuses. Maybe they'll regret it, maybe they won't. But many do. See Rachel's Vineyard and Silent No More.

I won't talk too much about what actually happens during an abortion in this post: you probably know that it's a living horror-movie of a procedure. In that sense, women might get some relief/solace from going through labour as opposed to an abortion, since labour gives something where abortion takes it away for good.

Nothing that I've written is intended to belittle labour or be condescending to any woman who has had an abortion. I believe women need help one way or the other, whether going through pregnancy or after an abortion.

Morag · 21-02-2011 08:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you mean intrauterine devices? Those can prevent fertilisation, yes, but they can also prevent the implantation of the zygote (or blastocyst, by that stage).

The implanon goes in a woman's arm :rolleyes:

Dr. Baltar · 21-02-2011 08:44PM

poker head wrote: »

well know one in my house will be voting labour no fecking way.me and my little borther were adopted .thank god our brith mothers didnt have that choice or we might not be here now or my son.if a mothers life is in danger thats another story.

down with labour

Nothing stopped your birth mother from going to Britain.
We need to take responsibility here rather shipping our pregnant women to Britain for abortions. Just because it isn't legal here doesn't mean that it doesn't happen anyway.

Besides, better for them to have abortions in a safe environment than in the back of an alley.

A vote for Labour is a vote for Abortion - Iona Institute

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