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Trouble in Bahrain

24

Comments

  • #32
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Yeah, its a sad state of affairs. As long as the tyrant plays ball, they can get away with all sorts. Surely democracy is the West's best interests? After all, we bang on about it all the time.


  • #33
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    nacho libre wrote: »
    The good old Colonel is a friend to the west now so the criticism must be measured, lest he tear up the lucrative contracts with western companies. 200 people killed for the crime of protesting in Libya 10- 15 years ago would have resulted in strident condemnation of Gadaffi.


    Does everything that happens bad in the world have to be turned upside down and blamed on the west, Is it always our fault ?


  • #34
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    realies wrote: »
    Does everything that happens bad in the world have to be turned upside down and blamed on the west, Is it always our fault ?

    No one is blaming the West, just pointing out the hypocrisy of supporting such tyrants, which is something the West is actually doing. People need to stop ignoring the fact that the West, which claims to support democracy, actually supports tyrants when it suits.


  • #35
    ottostreet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭ottostreet


    Looks like the Grand Prix will be cancelled, decision made by Wednesday.

    Drivers & teams are condemning the Crown Princes families actions, with the ultimate decision of whether the race will go ahead being left in the Crown Prince's hands. However, BBC don't appear to be travelling to the Grand Prix regardless even if it does go ahead.


  • #36
    Cathaoirleach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Cathaoirleach


    pavb2 wrote: »
    I know internet etc has changed things but what has triggered this domino effect, same as regimes falling in Eastern Europe in 80's? Is it just the success of Egypt and Tunisia in getting rid of govt? Why now and why so many?

    The Wikileaks Cables kicked off the Tunisian and Egyptian protests. The rest of the the Arab nations now have a taste for democracy and are taking to the streets.

    The regimes in Libya, Bahrain and Yemen have been far more heavy-handed against protesters than Egypt or Tunisia were.

    I think we are witnessing one of the most important chapters of modern history since WW2!


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  • #37
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    wes wrote: »
    No one is blaming the West, just pointing out the hypocrisy of supporting such tyrants, which is something the West is actually doing. People need to stop ignoring the fact that the West, which claims to support democracy, actually supports tyrants when it suits.


    Point taken wes and what ever new dictator/government/party get in power soon they will still do so,But what i am saying in these instances its the people themselves who are rising up with no interference from outside forces.


  • #38
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122014259976293.html#

    Looks like it could descend into anarchy in Libya as a lot of the troops are siding with the protestors.


  • #39
    Riddle101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,669 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    Here's a video of people being gunned down by the army. Gruesome stuff
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM


  • #40
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Dont look at those pics, I feel sick, ffs we dont need that sh!te on here, horrible


  • #41
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,919 ✭✭✭Einhard


    wes wrote: »
    No one is blaming the West, just pointing out the hypocrisy of supporting such tyrants, which is something the West is actually doing. People need to stop ignoring the fact that the West, which claims to support democracy, actually supports tyrants when it suits.

    The over-riding priority of any government is to act in the interests of its people and society, which is exacty what the West is doing. Everything else, including the rights of those living under dictatorships, comes second to that. I'm all for encouraging democracy, and for the use of influence to temper the actions of the autocrats, but the world isn't black and white, and no government can afford to act as if it were.

    Egypt, for example, is a massively important Western (American) ally. I don't think there's any doubt but that America would welcome a true, open democracy in the country. But, entirely withdrawing backing from Mubarak's regime might not have made much of a difference, and were the protests unsuccessful, America would have an unfriendly regime where it once had an ally.

    I don't think it's hypocritical to champion democracy whilst allied with autocracies. There's little to be gained from tilting at windmills, and much to be lost.


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  • #42
    Quackles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,484 ✭✭✭Quackles


    I'm supposed to go out next month :( Those poor people, the lack of media coverage is sickening. I tried keeping up on twitter but it's just frightening me far too much.


  • #43
    Tigerbaby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Tigerbaby


    whats happening in the Arab World now is just a replay of what happened in Latin America in the 70s and 80s. Ye had the same mix of dictators/despots being supported by Western money ( US and Israel) to clamp down on the natives.

    This too shall pass. The Jewish State is on quicksand as the Arab "street" awakes. The USA and the Jews had bought off the leaders in Jordan, Egypt , Saudi etc. but the people are rising up.

    The voice of Islam is at last being heard. This is a religion that does not believe in turning the other cheek, and is far more radical than Christianity in its pursuit of justice in this World, not the next.

    Good luck to them all. May Allah bless their work.


  • #44
    Sergeant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭Sergeant


    I'm glad to see that a thread about democracy in the Middle East has turned into yet another rant about 'Merica and Israel. Wouldn't want to break with a great AH tradition.


  • #45
    Tigerbaby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Tigerbaby


    Sergeant wrote: »
    I'm glad to see that a thread about democracy in the Middle East has turned into yet another rant about 'Merica and Israel. Wouldn't want to break with a great AH tradition.

    good for you. I'm glad that you're glad. However, the Elephant in the room should be seen, not ignored. Its useful to see truth, dont cha know. or does that comment make me ( Shriek, Horror ) "anti-semitic" !!! Oh No!!!

    Good Luck!


  • #46
    losthorizon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    Apparently Gaddafi has fled Libya!


  • #47
    Sergeant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭Sergeant


    Tigerbaby wrote: »
    good for you. I'm glad that you're glad. However, the Elephant in the room should be seen, not ignored. Its useful to see truth, dont cha know. or does that comment make me ( Shriek, Horror ) "anti-semitic" !!! Oh No!!!

    Good Luck!


    No, but the discussion was about the protests to bring about regime change in Bahrain, and now in Libya. Israel is 900 miles away from Bahrain and is not involved in these demonstrations to bring about change. It isn't the Israeli government that is shooting its own people, so I fail to see how in this instance it is the "elephant in the room"? :confused:


  • #48
    BASHIR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭BASHIR


    losthorizon wrote: »
    Apparently Gaddafi has fled Libya!

    Where did you read this? cant find anything, thanks :)


  • #49
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Tiger Baby wrote: »
    whats happening in the Arab World now is just a replay of what happened in Latin America in the 70s and 80s. Ye had the same mix of dictators/despots being supported by Western money ( US and Israel) to clamp down on the natives.

    This too shall pass. The Jewish State is on quicksand as the Arab "street" awakes. The USA and the Jews had bought off the leaders in Jordan, Egypt , Saudi etc. but the people are rising up.

    The voice of Islam is at last being heard. This is a religion that does not believe in turning the other cheek, and is far more radical than Christianity in its pursuit of justice in this World, not the next.

    Good luck to them all. May Allah bless their work.



    What about the people in Iran, will allah bless there work or the Iranian governments who seem to be more interested oppressing there own people as much as libya.


  • #50
    Tigerbaby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Tigerbaby


    Sergeant wrote: »
    No, but the discussion was about the protests to bring about regime change in Bahrain, and now in Libya. Israel is 900 miles away from Bahrain and is not involved in these demonstrations to bring about change. It isn't the Israeli government that is shooting its own people, so I fail to see how in this instance it is the "elephant in the room"? :confused:

    oh come now, you're being so naive. USA 5th Fleet is in Bahrain to aid in the strangulation of Iran. The US have bought ( with $) the aquiesence of The rulers of Bahrain, Egypt and Jordan. Its no coincidence that the military vehicles we see deployed against the pro-democracy supporters are all M1 Abrams and Humvees and US APC's.

    Israel is the centre of financial globalisation, so geographical distance is irrelevant in a digital World. The Jewish State's tentacles stretch far and wide.

    Heres hoping Iran will help the majority Shi'i in Bahrain in any way necessary.


  • #51
    losthorizon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    BASHIR wrote: »
    Where did you read this? cant find anything, thanks :)


    Two sources Al Jazeera and also on Twitter ShababLibya


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  • #52
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Tigerbaby wrote: »
    Israel is the centre of financial globalisation, so geographical distance is irrelevant in a digital World. The Jewish State's tentacles stretch far and wide.

    .

    Financial globalisation??? What does that even mean?


  • #53
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Tigerbaby wrote: »
    whats happening in the Arab World now is just a replay of what happened in Latin America in the 70s and 80s. Ye had the same mix of dictators/despots being supported by Western money ( US and Israel) to clamp down on the natives.
    Not exactly. There's some similarities but they are certainly not comparable 1:1.
    The voice of Islam is at last being heard. This is a religion that does not believe in turning the other cheek, and is far more radical than Christianity in its pursuit of justice in this World, not the next.
    The voice of Islam? Excuse me? The voice of democracy and freedom more like. There were Christians and non-religious people involved in the protests in Egypt and Tunisia. It certainly was not lead by any Islamic religious ideals.


  • #54
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Einhard wrote: »
    I don't think it's hypocritical to champion democracy whilst allied with autocracies. There's little to be gained from tilting at windmills, and much to be lost.

    It is hypocritical actually, if you bang on about democracy and then go about supporting dictators, and even in some cases undermining democracy or putting in dictators yourself, then that is massively hypocritical.

    Secondly, I disagree that actions of supporting these tyrants is in anybodies best interests. We have seen groups like Al Qaeda specifically target the West for supporting these regimes, and that is just one example of "blow back" as the American's call it. The stability that these regimes offer isn't real, and any deal made by them are worthless, as they will not necessarily be backed by the people, when the tyrant is removed, which will happen sooner or later.

    Also, is there any limit to what can be excused by invoking your own best interests? For example, many Western countries supported Saddam, when he was gassing the Kurds, was that acceptable? The West accepted that kind of thing, as long as Saddam sided with the West, which imho pretty much destroys any kind of moral credibility that the West could ever claim.

    Again, the Wests best interests are served by supporting democracy. Long term that will make things better, and things won't happen over night, but it is the best course of action imho.


  • #55
    Tigerbaby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Tigerbaby


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Not exactly. There's some similarities but they are certainly not comparable 1:1.


    The voice of Islam? Excuse me? The voice of democracy and freedom more like. There were Christians and non-religious people involved in the protests in Egypt and Tunisia. It certainly was not lead by any Islamic religious ideals.


    can you expand on that ? why is the liberation theology of the Latinos different to the Liberation Theology of the Muslims ?

    vox pop anyone ?


  • #56
    BASHIR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭BASHIR


    losthorizon wrote: »
    Two sources Al Jazeera and also on Twitter ShababLibya

    Thank you, found it on aljazeera but that twitter link didnt work :)


  • #57
    Johro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Sergeant wrote: »
    I'm glad to see that a thread about democracy in the Middle East has turned into yet another rant about 'Merica and Israel. Wouldn't want to break with a great AH tradition.
    :rolleyes: Can't deny they play a pretty big part in middle eastern affairs. Regrettably.


  • #58
    Sergeant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭Sergeant


    Johro wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Can't deny they play a pretty big part in middle eastern affairs. Regrettably.


    Have we evidence that the Israeli government is either for positive or negative purposes involved in the demonstrations that are taking place in Libya and Bahrain? Can you provide any links? I'm genuinely interested in this, as it is an angle that the media aren't reporting on.


  • #59
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Sergeant wrote: »
    Have we evidence that the Israeli government is either for positive or negative purposes involved in the demonstrations that are taking place in Libya and Bahrain? Can you provide any links? I'm genuinely interested in this, as it is an angle that the media aren't reporting on.

    The Israeli government haven't really made any official comments on the situation at the minute, I reckon they're trying to see what sort of regimes appear when the dust settles before saying anything.


  • #60
    Johro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Tigerbaby wrote: »
    can you expand on that ? why is the liberation theology of the Latinos different to the Liberation Theology of the Muslims ?

    vox pop anyone ?
    I can't speak for the Bahrainis or Libyans or Yemenis but in Tunisia and Egypt it was definitely about freedom and democracy, people went out of their way to make it perfectly clear to everyone this was not a protest in any way related to religion, and attended by people of all faiths. They should be applauded and congratulated for that, it has so far just been people in the west who have tried to portray it as an Islamic movement.


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  • #61
    Tigerbaby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 598 ✭✭✭Tigerbaby


    Johro wrote: »
    I can't speak for the Bahrainis or Libyans or Yemenis but in Tunisia and Egypt it was definitely about freedom and democracy, people went out of their way to make it perfectly clear to everyone this was not a protest in any way related to religion, and attended by people of all faiths. They should be applauded and congratulated for that, it has so far just been people in the west who have tried to portray it as an Islamic movement.

    that just goes to show how all-encompassing a Muslim liberation theology is.
    they seek freedom for all "Peoples of the Book".. be they Jew, Christian or Muslim.

    Whatever it is, it is a giant leap forward from murdering Palestinians who only want their land back.


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