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vote green

  • 19-02-2011 11:36AM
    #1
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭


    vote green. people love to vote for the same old parties thinking they are going to get a CHANGE?! A real message to politicians is kicking old parties to the curb and seeing if a different party can breathe some fresh air into politics.

    a vote for green IS a vote for the economy if any of you have been reading up on the economics of climate change and green collar jobs. Green Party is not just about environment, it is about sustainability in all areas, and that means long term employment prospects, not short sighted quick fixes.. and it means working for priceless equality and quality of life rather than quick big $$.

    Why do so many people overlook the greens?


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Comments

  • #2
    Yawns
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


    Oh dear...



    I don't see this working out too well OP....


  • #3
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    vaalea wrote: »
    a vote for green IS a vote for the economy

    hahahahahaha
    hahahahaha
    hahaha
    ...
    ha
    :(


  • #4
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    I never liked veggies.


  • #5
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    vaalea wrote: »
    Why do so many people overlook the greens?

    Firstly because most of the main stream parties have adopted a lot of their policies.

    Secondly because when push came to shove they had a chance to do the honourable thing and end the charade and disaster of the outgoing Government they waited until the last possible moment to even contemplate doing the right thing.

    Thirdly they have increased the costs for the vast majority of citizens in this country at a time when we are all at the pin of our collars trying to make ends meet. If they at least provided alternatives where people could have a choice that would be in some way forgiveable but they didn't.

    For these reasons I sincerely hope that they cease to exist as a parliamentary party after the next election because I believe for the majority of us they are now irrelevant.


  • #6
    johno2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭johno2


    gandalf wrote: »
    Firstly because most of the main stream parties have adopted a lot of their policies.

    Secondly because when push came to shove they had a chance to do the honourable thing and end the charade and disaster of the outgoing Government they waited until the last possible moment to even contemplate doing the right thing.

    Thirdly they have increased the costs for the vast majority of citizens in this country at a time when we are all at the pin of our collars trying to make ends meet. If they at least provided alternatives where people could have a choice that would be in some way forgiveable but they didn't.

    For these reasons I sincerely hope that they cease to exist as a parliamentary party after the next election because I believe for the majority of us they are now irrelevant.
    I agree with you on the first 2 points, especially the first one. Due to EU legislation and international treaties (Kyoto) all parties are now beginning to take the message that the greens have been pushing for 30 years on board.

    It was their inexperience in high level politics that destroyed them in the popularity stakes. Bertie stitched them up really well after the last election. He knew that unpopular policies would have to be implemented by the 2007 government and most of them were a perfect fit for the green party. He even had 6 independents on board which meant the greens didn't have the votes to get FF out of government during the first year of government if they started to get cold feet about FF policies. After that first year I think they may have begun to suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

    Apart from the stag hunting and the dog breeding bills, nearly everything else was pretty much going to happen in some form or another anyway. It was always going to have a financial cost attached to it because it's easier to mess up the environment than it is to protect it. Bertie knew this and figured he'd let the ignorant masses put the blame on the greens instead of FF. I can honestly say I saw a backlash coming against the greens less than a month after the last election, and that was before the full extent of the economic situation became clear.

    I'll be voting for my local Green candidate, I have to thank the greens for finally opening up some business opportunities that allow me to work in a field that I have always wanted to. Until they had their time in government there was acres of red tape and a sickening resistance from the bureaucrats to any business idea that was remotely green. Now we have good recycling centers in all major towns, smart meters to allow export of electricity back into the grid, organic certification for farms, grants to improve the energy efficiency of houses and businesses, proper incentives to drive energy efficient vehicles and water metering is well advanced (but may yet be killed off). Most of this would have happened anyway but I think it would have been to a much lower standard if the GP weren't involved.

    johno


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  • #7
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    Other parties jumping on the bandwagon and adopting some policies doesn't mean they really give a damn.... and that their other policies will not undermine any green policies they claim.

    I don't know why exactly the greens let the govt hang in there, diplomacy? but voters seemed unconcerned by the fact that their vote put the Fianna Fáil into govt in the first place. And voter/citizen action through demonstration, petition, letter writing does have an effect – responsibilities of citizens do not stop at the voting booth. There are far too many apathetic citizens/voters. On the other hand everyone was just lapping it up during the celtic tiger years. These issues are not just the mistakes of the irish govt, but the same unsustainable growth issues and bailouts played out in other countries with a domino effect.

    Ireland has a history of economic crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland it's not just because the green party entered the ring at a strategically unfavourable time you can blame the new guys who have been able to negotiate and implement much needed changes.


  • #8
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    vaalea wrote: »
    Green Party is not just about environment, it is about sustainability in all areas, and that means long term employment prospects, not short sighted quick fixes.. and it means working for priceless equality and quality of life rather than quick big $$.


    As I posted on facebook
    Stitch in time saves nine... do we still not understand this concept?? Invest now for the future, or be saddled with a crushing debt and worse.
    Arctic melt to cost up to $24 trillion by 2050: report
    www.reuters.com
    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Arctic ice melting could cost global agriculture, real estate and insurance anywhere from $2.4 trillion to $24 trillion by 2050 in damage from rising sea levels, floods and heat....

    A good govt may be one that for the short term increases taxes etc but in a fair way that gives credit and assistance to those that need it/the vulnerable. A good govt would approach the upcoming years as if we were at war... but this time rather than a war that destroys and wastes resources, rather one that creates/invests into the community. Personal economy of citizens and all hands in, everyone must contribute, because everyone has the ability to contribute in some way. More cooperation and less "politics". Cutting down on consumerism and personal wealth at the expense of others, and focus on commonwealth and non-monetary assets that give us non-monetary wealth/ quality of life. And a good govt would be leaders by example - get out of those chauffeured cars and onto your bicycles!

    it would be nice if election time was a time citizens were able to re-evaluate the salary package on offer to those they were "hiring"... with a salary review after 6 months based on performance. :D


  • #9
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    vaalea wrote: »

    And a good govt would be leaders by example - get out of those chauffeured cars and onto your bicycles!


    Look what I found.. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055081633 which has the most ridiculous criticisms... what I read is Gromley simply stating how it is, not saying that is how it should be... and it sounds to me like he is advocating for infrastruccture budget to be put towards better/secure bike lock up facilities and better preventative measures which is a better investment of taxpayer money than garda salary?!... not saying 'its your own fault your bike got stolen". it would be great if the garda would take bike theft seriously, but Im sure people would complain at the wasted money it would cost to have garda investigate every case... it's unfair cars would get a priority but they cost more and are perhaps a little harder to steal and hide than a bicycle!! and now there is the dubin-bikes which have good lock-up stations.


  • #10
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    The Greens are just naive. They went into government with the bag bad wolf, pissed on a lot of their beliefs and party supporters to get some of their own policies through. In the end, they ended up being hated by much of the country but there just little children in the political game.

    Harmless creatures tbh.


  • #11
    telekon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭telekon


    Maybe if we vote them back in they can triple the carbon tax rate. Yay! :rolleyes:


    Some of us depend on transport for their work. Disaster of a tax.

    €1.44 at the moment!! Jesus, like.


    Thanks a million ye cretins. :mad:


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  • #12
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    telekon wrote: »
    Some of us depend on transport for their work. Disaster of a tax.

    How is that not a business write-off then? - a business expense that is added to the tab of the service as a cost to provide?


  • #13
    telekon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭telekon


    vaalea wrote: »
    How is that not a business write-off then? - a business expense that is added to the tab of the service as a cost to provide?

    I have to drive an hour and a half back and forth to work every day i.e. 3 hours total. As you can imagine, it aint cheap.


  • #14
    yeahme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭yeahme


    If they considered building a nuclear power station in Ireland, I maybe would consider them....maybe, other wise wishy washy wave and wind power just does not cut it.


  • #15
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    gandalf wrote: »
    Firstly because most of the main stream parties have adopted a lot of their policies.

    Secondly because when push came to shove they had a chance to do the honourable thing and end the charade and disaster of the outgoing Government they waited until the last possible moment to even contemplate doing the right thing.

    Thirdly they have increased the costs for the vast majority of citizens in this country at a time when we are all at the pin of our collars trying to make ends meet. If they at least provided alternatives where people could have a choice that would be in some way forgiveable but they didn't.

    For these reasons I sincerely hope that they cease to exist as a parliamentary party after the next election because I believe for the majority of us they are now irrelevant.


    This.
    No amount of 'this is good for the long-term' helps people and businesses now who are scratching about looking for every spare 10 cent to pay the bills.


  • #16
    johno2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭johno2


    telekon wrote: »
    Maybe if we vote them back in they can triple the carbon tax rate. Yay! :rolleyes:


    Some of us depend on transport for their work. Disaster of a tax.

    €1.44 at the moment!! Jesus, like.


    Thanks a million ye cretins. :mad:

    Yeah, about 4.5c of that is carbon tax. So it's roughly a 3% tax. I spend about €30 a week on fuel so it's gonna cost me an extra €1. I'd prefer to buy 5 plastic bags for that €1 and then just throw them in a river. Bloody ridiculous. I have to work for an extra 5 minutes every week to offset some of the damage I do to the environment. I blame God for putting us in such an unfair universe. If this carries on I might have to car pool on long journeys. How crazy is that!

    johno


  • #17
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    telekon wrote: »
    I have to drive an hour and a half back and forth to work every day i.e. 3 hours total. As you can imagine, it aint cheap.


    This is why i choose to leave reasonably close to work to avoid the wasted time and resources travelling to and from work.. but my view sucks and I probably pay way more for my accomodations! At some point you made the decision that resulted in such expense... why should that expense be externalized to people like me who have to breathe the car exhaust walking to work, and barely use pubicly paid transportation infrastructure, etc.

    This is also why flex work arrangements and telecommuting should be encouraged as well by govt policies.


  • #18
    yeahme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭yeahme


    vaalea wrote: »
    This is why i choose to leave reasonably close to work to avoid the wasted time and resources travelling to and from work.. but my view sucks and I probably pay way more for my accomodations! At some point you made the decision that resulted in such expense... why should that expense be externalized to people like me who have to breathe the car exhaust walking to work, and barely use pubicly paid transportation infrastructure, etc.

    This is also why flex work arrangements and telecommuting should be encouraged as well by govt policies.

    which is why the greens should encourage green clean renewable nuclear power.
    Imagine a country with the power to create a clean rail system that would get us north to south east to west in a clean and efficient manner instead of the only heaps of sh1te they have now, ffs I can swim to new york faster than getting from east to west here.


  • #19
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    gambiaman wrote: »
    This.
    No amount of 'this is good for the long-term' helps people and businesses now who are scratching about looking for every spare 10 cent to pay the bills.


    No amount of "this is good for the short-term" helps people and businesses who will be in the future not be able to pay their bill even by 10 cent. 'this is good for the short-term' gave you celtic tiger and people had no problems paying their bills then?!
    sustainable growth will help now, but it won't help everyone- not those who are reluctant to give up bad habits... it wouldn't prop up consumerism and people will have to accept changes in business... not keep things the way they were and still expect to pay the bills when there are no more customers for what they offer.... just like there is a time when SUV factories needed to change or die. Detroit has died because they were not future-forward thinking, but is now being rebuilt with new-urbanism and community gardens etc, and becoming a model for the world rather than simply example of ruin. Same goes for irish business... and govt policies can aid change and sustainable growth in struggling business.


  • #20
    johno2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭johno2


    yeahme wrote: »
    which is why the greens should encourage green clean renewable nuclear power.
    Imagine a country with the power to create a clean rail system that would get us north to south east to west in a clean and efficient manner instead of the only heaps of sh1te they have now, ffs I can swim to new york faster than getting from east to west here.

    I am in favour of a nuclear reactor in Ireland too, but even though it is fairly clean and there's no shortage of fuel right now, it is not a renewable source of energy.

    johno


  • #21
    gk5000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 885 ✭✭✭gk5000


    The greens are single issue, like a cloned replicated Jackie Healie-Rae; but instead of just a few local potholes in the arsehole of Kerry they want to interfere with everybody in every thing that we do; energy, waste, water, petrol, houseing.....

    See how they were happy to assist FF to bankrupt the country, IMF,NAMA to stay in power.

    They're not even really green if you look at the silly car scrappage scheme; you'll never recover the carbon of scrapping a 10 year old car.

    So shun the Zealots/Mullahs/Control Freaks like we did in the past; and send them back to the fringes where they belong.


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  • #22
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    yeahme wrote: »
    which is why the greens should encourage green clean renewable nuclear power.
    Imagine a country with the power to create a clean rail system that would get us north to south east to west in a clean and efficient manner instead of the only heaps of sh1te they have now, ffs I can swim to new york faster than getting from east to west here.


    Over the lifetime of a wind turbine, it will generate 17-39 times the amount of energy as was used to build it. Nuclear power plants produce only about 16 times the energy used to build them.
    Dangerous, expensive- cost overruns and other expenses often paid by taxpayers and what are the employment requirements of each? and requiring non-renewable material creating non-recyclable material... etc
    Then there is this http://www.plascoenergygroup.com/



  • #23
    johno2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭johno2


    gk5000 wrote: »
    They're not even really green if you look at the silly car scrappage scheme; you'll never recover the carbon of scrapping a 10 year old car.
    You're right about that, so obviously you have a good grasp of numbers. Why don't you do the math on taking the carbon tax applied to heating oil or gas (~4%) which gets allocated into grants for more efficient boilers. Upgrading a 10 year old boiler (65% efficient at best) and see how long it takes to amortise that against the grants they provided for new boilers (>90% efficient). I've already done it, and it varies slightly depending on usage and insulation levels, but for most houses it's somewhere in the ballpark of 4-5 years.

    People don't change their old habits without a stimulus and the greens have provided plenty of that. I admit they didn't get everything perfectly balanced but FF pulled a lot of the strings in the last government. The 2 Brians were the minsters for finance and got to decide how much money the greens could allocate to their projects.

    johno


  • #24
    johno2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭johno2


    vaalea wrote: »

    Over the lifetime of a wind turbine, it will generate 17-39 times the amount of energy as was used to build it. Nuclear power plants produce only about 16 times the energy used to build them.
    Dangerous, expensive- cost overruns and other expenses often paid by taxpayers and what are the employment requirements of each? and requiring non-renewable material creating non-recyclable material... etc
    Then there is this http://www.plascoenergygroup.com/

    I'd love to see a citation for those numbers. I know a lot about wind energy and my hunch is that it is more like 10-20 times the energy.

    thanks,

    johno


  • #25
    smellslikeshoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭smellslikeshoes


    People agree with improving renewable energy takeup, making us more self sufficient and reducing the amount of fossil fuels we use but forcing people to pay a carbon tax to try and make these things happen when most of us don't have any choice but to pay it is very very unpopular.

    Also lot of people(including myself) used them as a protest vote the last time and feel pretty betrayed in how they jumped into bed with FF and pretty much went back on their promises for a bit of power. Not to mention continuing to prop them up through all of this.


  • #26
    Ghost Estate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Ghost Estate


    The Greens had their chance and they screwed it up. While in government they really showed us they were all stick and no carrot, and a bunch of sell-outs to boot.

    Any subsidies they brought in weren't supposed to cost them anything; grants schemes mandating professional installation (jobs for the boys!) that would be cheaper to do yourself without a grant.


  • #27
    barclay2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 111 ✭✭barclay2


    I'll probably vote for them. Some of their candidates aren't great but collectively they have an intelligent and forward-thinking approach on a lot of issues and have a senior core of capable, honest individuals. They did make some mistakes in government with FF but these were mistakes that FG and Labour would have made as well, and they did some very good things too.

    Inherent in green politics is the idea of thinking long-term, ensuring all policies (not just on ecological issues) are sustainable and taking on vested interests. This is exactly what has been lacking in Irish politics for years and why we're in the situation we are now in.


  • #28
    UpTheSlashers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭UpTheSlashers


    vaalea wrote: »
    Don't vote green. people love to vote for the same old parties thinking they are going to get a CHANGE?! A real message to politicians is kicking old parties to the curb and seeing if a different party can breathe some fresh air into politics.

    a vote for green IS NOT a vote for the economy if any of you have been reading up on the economics of climate change and green collar jobs. Green Party is just about pretentious environmental crap, it is not about sustainability in any area, and that means long term emigration prospects, not even short sighted quick fixes.. and it means working for worthless policies and quality of ego rather than quick big $$.

    Why doesn't evryone ignore the greens?
    yup


  • #29
    vaalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭vaalea


    johno2 wrote: »
    I'd love to see a citation for those numbers. I know a lot about wind energy and my hunch is that it is more like 10-20 times the energy.

    thanks,

    johno


    copy/paste into google...
    or..

    The initial carbon dioxide emission from energy used in the installation is "paid back" within about 9 months of operation for off shore turbines. Any practical large-scale energy source must replace the energy used in its construction. The energy return on investment (EROI) for wind energy is equal to the cumulative electricity generated divided by the cumulative primary energy required to build and maintain a turbine. The EROI for wind ranges from 5 to 35, with an average of around 18, according to wind-energy advocates. EROI is strongly proportional to turbine size,[13] and larger late-generation turbines are at the high end of this range, at or above 35.[9] Since energy produced is several times energy consumed in construction, there is a net energy gain.[4]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_effects_of_wind_power


  • #30
    johno2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭johno2


    Ghost Estate wrote: »
    Any subsidies they brought in weren't supposed to cost them anything; grants schemes mandating professional installation (jobs for the boys!) that would be cheaper to do yourself without a grant.
    The only thing I can think of that qualifies for that statement is rolling out your own attic insulation. If it's cheaper to do it yourself nobody wants to stop you. Do it yourself. I don't fancy having unqualified cowboys drilling holes in my walls or replacing my boiler though, so I have no problem with having a requirement for training/certification/insurance attached to that. It would be a complete joke if everyone could issue their own BER certs for their own houses.

    You and a lot of other people are very angry right now, and I've been thinking about the anger bouncing around the country a lot for the last few weeks. I'm going to go slightly off-topic to give my views on the situation.

    The 4 stages of grief are denial, anger, depression and acceptance. The whole country is mourning the death of the Celtic Tiger. From 2007 to 2009 we were stuck in the denial stage. We are now in the anger stage. As soon as we realise that the Celtic Tiger was actually just our imaginary friend, we will enter the depression stage. We all brought this on ourselves, but our anger is preventing us from seeing that. We want to blame others, it's a natural human reaction. The most obvious candidates to blame are FF and the GP. Now re-read that paragraph and see if you agree with the ideas I am trying to express there.

    If you do agree, you will see that the Celtic Tiger era was already over in 2007. If you don't agree with the emotional analysis of the timeline then you probably just didn't notice it until later. This is a link to a breakdown of our tax income vs expenditure during the relevant period. It's clear to me that the GP is not to blame for the awful situation we find ourselves in. Everyone who voted for FF in the 1997/2002 and 2007 election in to blame. Everyone who bought an overpriced second property using an overpriced mortgage during that period is to blame. I am to blame for not shouting this message into all your faces for the last 10 years.

    johno


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  • #31
    5live
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭5live


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    hahahahahaha
    hahahahaha
    hahaha
    ...
    ha
    :(
    +1:D and a few more ha's to go with it too. The greens will be able to hold their parlimentary party meetings in a phone box after this election. A VERY small phone box:cool:


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