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Anyone shouting "burn the bond holders" should read this.....

  • 17-02-2011 11:35AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭


    More than half of Irish bank bonds held by investors in Republic

    AN ACADEMIC evaluation of official data shows a little above half of Irish bank bonds are held within Ireland, casting new light on claims that senior bondholders should be burned in the bailout plan.

    Séamus Coffey, a University College Cork economics lecturer, said his reading of Central Bank of Ireland data shows a significant disinvestment from Irish banks by bondholders elsewhere in the euro zone and in London.

    “We are exposed ourselves,” he told The Irish Times . “It’s becoming more and more Irish through time,” he said of the investor base.

    A senior European source said Mr Coffey’s findings stand as a “mirror image” of EU research.

    Each of the Opposition parties – including Fine Gael, which expects to lead a government within weeks – have pledged that they would “burn” senior bondholders if they win the election.

    However, Mr Coffey said in a blog posting* that any non-payment of the €33 billion owed to Irish-domiciled bond investors would be “far more significant” than the direct impact on euro zone banks or London-based investors.

    The EU authorities have consistently ruled out senior bond “haircuts” and did so again this week when euro zone finance ministers met top European Central Bank (ECB) officials and economics commissioner Olli Rehn.

    Mr Rehn said afterwards that Ireland’s European sponsors see no possibility of reneging such debt. Their stance is rooted in fear of contagion if the highest-ranked investors in other vulnerable European banks took fright at any move to impose bailout costs on senior Irish bondholders.

    Mr Coffey suggests the high Irish exposure to such debt questions the merits of forcing bondholders to bear costs.

    “Are we going to burn ourselves?”

    The data he drew on does not distinguish between senior and subordinated debt and he has no information on whether Irish banks hold each other’s bonds.

    He believes some of the debt is held by Irish pension funds and hedge funds.

    He notes a sharp decline in the Irish bond holdings in the euro zone and the rest of the world -- mostly London-based investors, he believes – since the bank guarantee in 2008.

    “Irish residents have seen their holdings of Irish bank bonds rise from €38 billion at the time of the guarantee to €45 billion in April 2010. Since then, these too have fallen and were down to €33 billion by December,” he said.

    “The proportion of bonds held by Irish residents has been rising since the guarantee was introduced and now stands at just over 50 per cent.”

    Rest of the world holdings fell €26 billion from the guarantee to some €20.5 billion at the end of 2010. Other euro zone investors cut their holdings of Irish bank bonds to €10 billion from €17 billion.

    “As time progresses [and more bonds are repaid] the mantra of ‘burn the bondholders’ or equivalent becomes ever less relevant.

    “It still has some scope to play a role but pretty soon it will be the country they are setting on fire. All the other fuel will be gone.”

    Line up, line up, who is going to be first to say, that's not true it's all the money we owe to Europe.........


«134567

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    What difference does their nationality make?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Rawhead


    I don't care if we burn Dermot Desmond or Roman Abromavich, they are both obscenely, disgustingly, astronomically wealthy individuals.

    I'm no socialist but let these swines burn and burn badly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭SamSamSammy


    The view is we're paying "ze germans" we're actually paying ourselves, 50% +.

    We'd be burning ourselves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    Fúck em all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭SamSamSammy


    Rawhead wrote: »
    I don't care if we burn Dermot Desmond or Roman Abromavich, they are both obscenely, disgustingly, astronomically wealthy individuals.

    I'm no socialist but let these swines burn and burn badly.

    Just because they have money? That's stupid.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 35,677 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I got burned once in Paddy Powers on Manchester United V Wolves,

    Whats the difference ???????????


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    The view is we're paying "ze germans" we're actually paying ourselves, 50% +.

    We'd be burning ourselves.

    Senior bond holders are actually a very small part of the banks debt.
    The vast majority is owed to other European banks.

    The only debt we, as a nation, should be paying back, at all, is the national debt, the money the government borrowed for the running of the country.

    Tell the banks to get stuffed and sort their own mess out.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Just because they have money? That's stupid.

    just think for once of the posibilty that they could be tastey...

    someone pass over the bbq sauce!

    :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Just because they have money? That's stupid.

    they gambled, they lost, why the hell should they be paid anything?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    Just because they have money? That's stupid.

    Whereas the taxpayer picking up the tab for their mistakes is genius?

    They took the risk. They should face the music.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    orourkeda wrote: »
    What difference does their nationality make?

    Well, if they are IRISH Pension Funds it will make a difference. Investment in our own economy is quite important, to aid our recovery.

    Not all investors are Desmond or Abramovich types, some are Credit Unions, Banks, Pension Funds and Hedge Funds.

    We need all the internal investors to help in the restoration of the Construction Industry, Metro North for Example to get our people off the Dole.

    Burn the Bondholders is a great slogan, but not if they are Home Grown Bondholders


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭SamSamSammy


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Well, if they are IRISH Pension Funds it will make a difference. Investment in our own economy is quite important, to aid our recovery.

    Not all investors are Desmond or Abramovich types, some are Credit Unions, Banks, Pension Funds and Hedge Funds.

    We need all the internal investors to help in the restoration of the Construction Industry, Metro North for Example to get our people off the Dole.

    Burn the Bondholders is a great slogan, but not if they are Home Grown Bondholders

    At least that's one intelligent response!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Rawhead


    Just because they have money? That's stupid.

    It has nothing to do with them having money that makes me want them to pay their debts, if my neighbour down the road gambled his meager savings on bonds then let him burn also.

    I already said I am not a socialist, far from it, I am a right wing capitalist and more importantly I am a moralist.

    They gambled, they lost, they fu*king pay.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Retail Hell


    so what we burn irish Companys and and irish investers it means we the taxpayer have less to pay to the government, because they gaurenteed thebank debth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Sanjuro


    According to Constantin Gurdiev last night, the bonds may just be resident here, but the bondholders may still be foreign nationals. Until there is a list of who the bondholders actually are, it's still all speculation.

    Regardless of where you're from, you gambled, you pay the price. Irish or otherwise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    This information is from last year but it is still current.
    http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2010/10/who-are-bond-holders-we-are-bailing-out.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Senior bond holders are actually a very small part of the banks debt.
    The vast majority is owed to other European banks.

    The only debt we, as a nation, should be paying back, at all, is the national debt, the money the government borrowed for the running of the country.

    Tell the banks to get stuffed and sort their own mess out.
    Sums up the cause of, and solution to, most of our problems rather neatly right there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,939 ✭✭✭mikedragon32


    "Your investment may go down as well as up" it used to say under all these pension products advertisements... In tiny print just above the HUGE print of how much the pension funds had grown in the last few years

    If the bondholders ARE Irish pension funds, oh well. Don't forget they got their tax breaks for putting money into pensions too...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    Seaneh wrote: »
    Senior bond holders are actually a very small part of the banks debt.
    The vast majority is owed to other European banks.

    The only debt we, as a nation, should be paying back, at all, is the national debt, the money the government borrowed for the running of the country.

    Tell the banks to get stuffed and sort their own mess out.


    Yes right, and when your wages are paid into your bank account next thursday, and you go to an ATM, it wont work and the bank will be closed, the banks will be stuffed, but so will we


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Yes right, and when your wages are paid into your bank account next thursday, and you go to an ATM, it wont work and the bank will be closed, the banks will be stuffed, but so will we

    No, they won't, because you don't know what you are talking about.

    Depostis and debts are entirely separate things.

    Stop listening to Michael Martin's sound bites and taking them as fact.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,515 ✭✭✭Firefox11


    Say goodbye to your pension then and maybe your savings too.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Rawhead


    The value of your investments may fall as well as rise.

    I seem to remember that annoying little sentence at the end of a lot of adverts over the years.

    Ask all the people who got burned with Eircom shares about the help they received. A government minister advising people to invest in an inflated crock of sh1te. There was no bailout for the widows, pensioners and ordinary people.

    It's like the off shore accounts, who really thinks that a farmer in Louth or a publicans wife in Finglas knew anything about investing offshore. They were told by the banks to put money offshore, the tax man found out, the banks washed their hands of it and the people were left with massive tax bills.

    It's the big boys who look like getting burned now and all you hear is "they're to big to fail", "they are keeping the economy alive", "the sky will fall" we have to bail them out.

    FU*K EM ALL AND MAKE THEM PAY


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    A lot of Credit Unions across the country invested their excess deposits in bonds in Irish Banks. If the bond holders are burned then the Credit Unions will be the first to go belly-up and a lot of savings of the middle and lower class will go with them. My local Credit Union in its AGM statement showed that they have over €3m in bonds in 2 Irish Banks. Their total deposits are only €4.5m. They have less than 300 members. I assume that these investments were made based on advice which would have been given to other credit unions across the country too???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    We had plenty of people on here saying they aren't willing to pay extra tax to bail out the "NE generation" so surely the same applies to private investors of all hues.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    Seaneh wrote: »
    No, they won't, because you don't know what you are talking about.

    Depostis and debts are entirely separate things.

    Stop listening to Michael Martin's sound bites and taking them as fact.


    Thanks for the observation,
    1, I have a good idea what I am talking about
    2, Deposits and debt are in fact very similar, both sources of funds are used by the Banks on a daily basis to balance the books, fund loans, mortgages etc, where do you think the money came from.
    3, Michael Who?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    Does it mention who it is? I'd imagine a large portion of those people are speculators, gamblers and developers. Does it suggest sorting through those debts to find the ones we should pay or part pay? Credit Unions, pension schemes etc.....

    For the past three years there's been no clarity given by any of the political parties in all of this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    Rawhead wrote: »
    The value of your investments may fall as well as rise.

    I seem to remember that annoying little sentence at the end of a lot of adverts over the years.



    Ita actually misquoted

    Correct quotation.....The value of your investments can fall as well as plummet.......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Rawhead wrote: »
    I don't care if we burn Dermot Desmond or Roman Abromavich, they are both obscenely, disgustingly, astronomically wealthy individuals.

    I'm no socialist but let these swines burn and burn badly.
    In reality, most of these bonds would be held by pension companies to provide an income to old folk who didn't want to be a burden on the state. Funny how people accept the cartoon version SF peddle with the evil speculators laughing at us inside their golden houses.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Seaneh wrote: »
    No, they won't, because you don't know what you are talking about.

    Depostis and debts are entirely separate things.
    Ironic post of the day. The banks are already insolvent, we are all just pretending they are not. Without government/ECB support, they will fold like a house of cards.

    And by the way, deposits are a debt on the banks books. But you know that because you clearly know what you are talking about :rolleyes:


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